Sad Story from One Who Trusted without Checking!

[greenban]

A fradulent person could create dozen of DIS identities and satisfy any minimum post requirements. The date a DIS joined and their total post counts are visible. That's one factor that a person should consider in deciding who to do business with. Let the owner/renter decide how much value to put in this information.

Internet sites such as mousesavers suggest people consider renting points and suggest DIS as a good place to post. A six month rule might cut out some good people.

I guess DIS could considering charging a nominal annual fee for members that want to post in the rental board. That would help pay for bandwidth. It would reduce the number of multiple identities and having to provide a valid credit card might deter some scammers. The owner is getting money and the renter is getting a good deal on a vacation. Maybe DIS should get something, even if it's just $10 for the annual right to post in the rental forum.

GREAT IDEA!

-Tony

 

[JimMIA]

The problem is that PP may not have violated any DISboard rules that would allow her banning, even though most of us would agree her actions are far 'worse' than posting, "...sorry your dates are all sold out..." on the R/T board.

I'm sure there is no big controversy over what any of us think of this person's behavior, and I think there are two important things to keep in mind regarding her:

1 - Doc's post saying she had not violated any DIS policies was very early in the process, was absolutely correct at that time, and also came after she had assured Doc that she would contact Dani and straighten things out. Doc said no action was warranted at that time, and he was absolutely right.

2 - Thing have changed now. I do not know whether she has been banned, but I don't think she is still posting rental offerings on the DIS. If anyone sees such postings, that would be good info to share.

 

[greenban]

I'm sure there is no big controversy over what any of us think of this person's behavior, and I think there are two important things to keep in mind regarding her:

1 - Doc's post saying she had not violated any DIS policies was very early in the process, was absolutely correct at that time, and also came after she had assured Doc that she would contact Dani and straighten things out. Doc said no action was warranted at that time, and he was absolutely right.

2 - Thing have changed now. I do not know whether she has been banned, but I don't think she is still posting rental offerings on the DIS. If anyone sees such postings, that would be good info to share.

Jim:

I am in no way questioning DOC's or anyone else's behavior.

Doc was incredable in his actions and responsiveness, especially when you consider he was at WDW!!!

Also, I meant to point out that no matter how angry we (the DIS community) felt at PP's actions, she had done nothing specifically bannable.

The DISboards have no resposnibility here, they do what they do wonderfully, run the best Disney site!

But, I do think we agree that morally, what this PP did is 'worse' than posting "...sorry, just checked with MS, your dates are not available...." which is a bannable offense. And yes, I believe the DIS would issue many warnings before it ever came to a banning.

So let me be clear, the DIS and DOC (and Jim too) are all wonderful, I wish Pixie Dust and a speedy and happy resolution to our victims, and I hope PP's life improves as well.

Peace!

-Tony

 

[robinb]

2 - Thing have changed now. I do not know whether she has been banned, but I don't think she is still posting rental offerings on the DIS. If anyone sees such postings, that would be good info to share.

For good or bad, I think this thread has poisoned the well for her. More than one poster has said that they have been contacted by her in an attempt to rent points but they declined because of this thread. The downside is that the PP told Dani that she could only refund her money once she re-rented the points.

 

[JimMIA]

Jim:

I am in no way questioning DOC's or anyone else's behavior.

Sorry, I don't think I made myself clear. I was referring to the person many refer to as PP's behavior. I try to stay away from using any kind of personal identifier for her because I've typed her real name more than once and had to change it. Once I didn't notice until after I'd already posted!

I know you weren't questioning Doc or the DIS.

As far as her posting activity meeting DIS posting guidelines, I think it's always been against DIS guidelines to use the DIS for criminal activity. Criminality was not clear at the time of Doc's first posting, but it's quite clear now.

I don't know what they've done to her (nor do I expect them to announce it), but I do not believe she is renting on the DIS any longer.

 

[JimMIA]

For good or bad, I think this thread has poisoned the well for her. More than one poster has said that they have been contacted by her in an attempt to rent points but they declined because of this thread.

That can only be GOOD. Congratulations to those who outsmarted her.

The downside is that the PP told Dani that she could only refund her money once she re-rented the points.

Right...which is a totally bogus idea if you stop and think about it. She provided absolutely NOTHING to Dani -- she wasn't out any points, and had no need to re-rent anything. She just needed to refund Dani's money which she had taken for NOTHING.

And second, she did re-rent the points -- to Stacey!

 

[kd5k]

I would love nothing more than to see a happy ending to this saga! There are too many victims here, and how many that we are not aware of??? This scares me!!

I have mixed emotions about the 6 month membership and low post count... Being new myself ( I am a good, honest person!! ) and having just joined and not been on any of the trips yet, I don't feel I have allot to offer as far as advice goes on most of these posts. I can post a "hi", "Hope ya have fun", and "good lucks", but what am I saying that is worth-while? I have had questions that I have posted and a few people that I am PM'd for certain things.

I think the biggest thing, that has been said here several times, is to pay attention to your "GUT FEELINGS!!" Pay attention to those red flags!! Make sure you have good communication! I think it would be easy to get caught up in the excitement of getting those rental points to be able to take your dream vacation, but STOP and pay attention!!

Hope to see some good news in this coming week! I am sure if Dani and Stacy are taking steps to resolve this, that they might not be able to talk of it, due to not divulging too much information.

Thinking of you ladies and hope you do get this resolved soon!

hugs, Deb

 

[mamatojon]

I pretty squarely fit into the controversial category. In fact I think Doc has designated a 'special category' for me and my self-perceived sense of humor. However, I have one and only one DISboard id (as per the rules) and it has never interfered with my rental activities.

The problem is that PP may not have violated any DISboard rules that would allow her banning, even though most of us would agree her actions are far 'worse' than posting, "...sorry your dates are all sold out..." on the R/T board.

I'm hoping an exception has been made and PP is banned, because her rental activities seem to have morphed into a pyramid scheme.

Let me close with again wishing the best of luck to PP's growing number of victims, and hoping this all finally ends as well it can!

-Tony

Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that one *had* to have multiple IDs if they were going to post controversially elsewhere, just that I could understand the desire to keep your business interests and your personal convictions separate. Many stores, companies, organizations don't want to alienate people with dissimilar views and as such stay pretty politically correct, so I could see where a high volume renter would as well, if they view their renting as a business.

OT, but FWIW, I usually *get* your sense of humor Tony, and my son *loves* the frog pic. He is patiently waiting his turn so he can go on gametap so this is from him - he loves the smilies, LOL.

 

[twinklebug]

As far as her posting activity meeting DIS posting guidelines, I think it's always been against DIS guidelines to use the DIS for criminal activity.

I'm sorry... just interjecting a smile and a rambling here...

I've always assumed it was against US law to use the Web for criminal activity, as such, it is implied the DIS would never allow it.

I recall a nasty situation involving a major broadcasting company I moderated for in which I had to call and work with the authorities on several persons selling illegal materials and making personal threats to Olympic Athletes. As the network was not responsible for the postings all we had to provide to the law were the IPs, posting times and what they posted. Rest assured the guilty parties were taken care of.

I believe the DIS moderators do a fantastic job of keeping these forums clean and family friendly. I KNOW what sort of junk can and does get posted to open forums and IF you ever come across it here, it's gone within seconds. I have no issues with my 13yo DD using this site.

 

[DMKEDM]

For what it's worth: I am EXTREMELY (and yes, I mean to shout that!) grateful...deeply, profoundly grateful!!!!...that no one else sent the PP money that she could then use to send back to me! I can't tell you how horrible I'd have felt if someone else got scammed and I got repaid on their money!!!

So, I'm unqualifiedly happy to know that at least one person (and possibly more) were spared this experience because of the existence of this thread ... it helps take some of the sting out of being scammed myself...

And no, no updates today...

Happy day, everyone...

Dani

 

[robinb]

Right...which is a totally bogus idea if you stop and think about it. She provided absolutely NOTHING to Dani -- she wasn't out any points, and had no need to re-rent anything. She just needed to refund Dani's money which she had taken for NOTHING.

Yes, but if she spent the money she doesn't have it to return.

And second, she did re-rent the points -- to Stacey!

I'm not so sure about that. Stacey put her request for points out on 10/12. She was contacted by the PP and she sent her money on Sunday 10/15. Dani received a text message on Monday night 10/16 that said that the PP needed to re-rent the points before she could send back the money. I do not think the two transactions are for the same points ... unless they are all vapor-points.

 

[JimMIA]

Yes, but if she spent the money she doesn't have it to return.

I'm not so sure about that. Stacey put her request for points out on 10/12. She was contacted by the PP and she sent her money on Sunday 10/15. Dani received a text message on Monday night 10/16 that said that the PP needed to re-rent the points before she could send back the money. I do not think the two transactions are for the same points ... unless they are all vapor-points.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on the chronology, for several reasons.

But I will say that PP's statement that she "had" to re-rent Dani's points is obviously bogus on its face. She was implying she had to re-rent the points because Dani wasn't taking the points, and that of course is just not true.

I'm sure you don't mean to say this, but it almost sounds like you think if she'd only been able to put together one more transaction (either legitimate or fraudulent), she would have repaid Dani. I don't think that's the case.

 

[JimMIA]

One fly in the ointment for those proposing some sort of time/post count threshhold for posting on the R/T board: That only covers half of the problem on its best day.

There are two ways to rent and posting an ad is only one of them. The other way is to just lurk and PM/email people who post requests for reservations.

Unless you're willing to withhold PMing and emailing through the DIS until a new member meets those threshholds, you'd only be addressing part of the problem.

For the same reason, requiring payment of a fee would have the same defect unless you wanted to completely restrict the R/T board to paying members only...which doesn't seem like a great marketing strategy either.

I don't think there are any shortcuts. I think the best advice is still caveat emptor -- the prospective renters (and owners renting points) need to be cautious, and they need to protect themselves.

 

[robinb]

I'm sure you don't mean to say this, but it almost sounds like you think if she'd only been able to put together one more transaction (either legitimate or fraudulent), she would have repaid Dani. I don't think that's the case.

That's exactly what I mean to say. I think it looks pretty bad for the PP, but I am not 100% sure that she is a criminal. We know that she is flakey and we know that she doesn't follow up with her renters and we know that she has very poor communication skills. That comes from the Vogels' rental experience. By her own admission, she has had a rocky few months both emotionally and financially. My guess is the money was spent as soon as it was picked up from Western Union and the PP had no money to return to Dani.

I view her additional rental attempts as a way to make good. If she had been able to follow though one or more of the transactions she attempted I think there is a chance that she would have paid Dani and Stacey back. Maybe not a really big chance, but a chance nonetheless. That chance dwindles with every post about how the PP is a criminial and with every renter who turns her down. It would be quite easy for the PP to feel victimized herself. Eventually even the most level headed person will say "The heck with them!" A less level headed person would say "Make me give the money back!".

Don't get me wrong! If I were Dani or Stacey I would be working with as many people possible to track the PP down and make her give the money back. I would work with the police, with Western Union, with the investigator and I would work with my fellow victims.

Maybe the PP is a criminal. Maybe she's just messed up. None of really knows for sure except the PP herself.

 

[JimMIA]

I hope you're right Robin, but I have not seen any indication of her intent to do anything positive. I'd love to be proven wrong, and I'd like to see her start taking some steps to put her life back on track. But I have not seen any signs of that yet.

 

[elijahpep]

I view her additional rental attempts as a way to make good.

I suppose I am a more cynical person than you. I believe she would have just taken someone elses money and left them wondering just as she has Dani and Stacey.

I don't post too often and have been following this thread from the beginning. I feel very sorry for the individuals (sounds like it might be many) involved in this web of deceit created by the PP. My prayers go out to them and hopefully it will be resolved in the near future.

~DH

 

[CarolMN]

Just a bit of history -

Early on (when the DIS and the DVC Board was fairly new), there was a proposal / plan to charge for the Rent/Trade Board. There was such an "uproar" from so many of the Board regulars that the owner backed off. Thus there is no fee of any kind to use the R/T Forum.

 

[nicky mouse]

The email address? For the poster? No...I used PM to contact her, and then what turned out to be a cell phone number thereafter. I have a name, her cell phone number (which shows her name on my caller ID and it's the same name she gave me), the city where she picked up the money I wired to her, her screen name here on Disboards, and that's it...

It's bummer that this happened to you. But I would contact the athorities in the city where she picked up the money. Western Union must have cameras and she probably had to sign for the money. You didn't have a contract, so there is probably nothing they can do, but it's worth a try.

 

[manning]

I wonder if the Vogels got their vacation because they made payment by a USPS money order. The PP may have went thru with the rental to avoid mail fraud.

Those who choose (and should) to file police reports may help the police in an investigation. PP had to show ID and sign for the money order. Might I suggest you do it around the same time with one detective, if possible, to make the PP stand out.

There appears to be a possible federal crime here.

WIRE FRAUD - 18 USC 1343, makes it a Federal crime or offense for anyone to use interstate wire communications facilities in carrying out a scheme to defraud.

A person can be found guilty of that offense only if all of the following facts are proved beyond a reasonable doubt:

First: That the person knowingly and willfully devised a scheme to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false pretenses, representations or promises; and

Second: That the person knowingly transmitted or caused to be transmitted by wire in interstate commerce some sound for the purpose of executing the scheme to defraud.

It is not necessary that the Government prove all of the details concerning the precise nature and purpose of the scheme; or that the material transmitted by wire was itself false or fraudulent; or that the alleged scheme actually succeeded in defrauding anyone; or that the use of interstate wire communications facilities was intended as the specific or exclusive means of accomplishing the alleged fraud.

What must be proved is that the person knowingly and willfully devised or intended to devise a scheme to defraud; and that the use of the interstate wire communications facilities was closely related to the scheme because the person either wired something or caused it to be wired in interstate commerce in an attempt to execute or carry out the scheme.

To "cause" interstate wire facilities to be used is to do an act with knowledge that the use of the wires will follow in the ordinary course of business or where such use can reasonably be foreseen.

Each separate use of the interstate wire facilities in furtherance of a scheme to defraud constitutes a separate offense.




Just a thought. Good luck.

 

[OceanAnnie]

That's exactly what I mean to say. I think it looks pretty bad for the PP, but I am not 100% sure that she is a criminal. We know that she is flakey and we know that she doesn't follow up with her renters and we know that she has very poor communication skills. That comes from the Vogels' rental experience. By her own admission, she has had a rocky few months both emotionally and financially. My guess is the money was spent as soon as it was picked up from Western Union and the PP had no money to return to Dani.

I view her additional rental attempts as a way to make good. If she had been able to follow though one or more of the transactions she attempted I think there is a chance that she would have paid Dani and Stacey back. Maybe not a really big chance, but a chance nonetheless. That chance dwindles with every post about how the PP is a criminial and with every renter who turns her down. It would be quite easy for the PP to feel victimized herself. Eventually even the most level headed person will say "The heck with them!" A less level headed person would say "Make me give the money back!".

Don't get me wrong! If I were Dani or Stacey I would be working with as many people possible to track the PP down and make her give the money back. I would work with the police, with Western Union, with the investigator and I would work with my fellow victims.

Maybe the PP is a criminal. Maybe she's just messed up. None of really knows for sure except the PP herself.

I don't know.

IMO, the PP's actions ARE criminal. Yes, she did mess up. Not "just messed up" to me. It wasn't a little "oops". It was a deliberate act. The way it was set up indicates as much to me. What ever actions take place after the fact does not change the act of taking someone's money under false pretenses is a criminal act. Yes, she could (should) turn this around. Whatever anyone has to say about it IMO won't have an impact on what the PP's next step will be. She initiated the criminal act without any commentary. She's continuing to initiaite renting with no consequence (other than being turned down by those informed). Who knows why she's trying to continue to rent? IMO, past actions indicate it's to line her pockets.

If the PP is feeling victimized then she's lost all touch with reality, not just "less level headed". I don't blame people for not renting from her. She certainly hasn't proven herself trustworthy. There has been no communication with the people she has "let down" (to put it lightly). Nothing for their money. I certainly wouldn't line up to give her mine!

Sad that Dani & Staci haven't gotten their money back. The more time that passes makes it less likely it will occur.