Run Faster With Less Speed work? A Couch To Marathon Training Journal

[Mumof4mice]

Hi All, my name is Grace. I'm a happily married mum of four, part-time MD and enthusiastic new runner.

I've hit the first obstacle since I started running last year. Slowing down and reassessing my goals. Comments and advice welcome!

My training to date
I never did any sport at school/university. Despite years of DH's encouragement and being surrounded by very fit friends, I saw no problem with being inactive. It was a runDisney MW 2020 holiday with friends that finally got me moving!

The training, thanks to the help of @DopeyBadger , was smooth sailing. I went from being unable to run more than 200m without stopping (April 2019), to running a 55 minute 10k in September. Started Dopeybadger's HM plan and again made good gains. By early December, Coach calculated I was at 1:50 HM fitness. I was thrilled! Thoughts of BQ might have entered my mind. With another year of training and the generous cutoff for F45-49...

Then I ran into a brick wall
My hip blew up 2 weeks before MW! Thankfully, the hip improved with rest, enough for me to complete the HM at easy pace.

I don't recall pulling/snapping anything. I never felt over-taxed during any of my training runs. DH and friends (who still can't believe I'm running) think it's unlikely to be a serious injury. The theory we're running on is my fitness improvement outpaced toughening of my reformed couch potato tendons and muscles, causing the aggravation. The training plan worked too well. (I blame myself 100% for adjusting the pacing a lot during the plan, when I got fitter.) Really Fast Friend recommended going back to 3 months of base building/easy running.

I'm seeing a specialist sports physiotherapist on Monday to exclude any serious hip issue. Fingers crossed I get the all clear to start training.

Thanks for reading! Happy running everyone

 

[jmasgat]

Hope your hip is improving, and I chuckled when I read an oh so familiar theme of "Hmmm, I am a reasonably speedy runner. What can I do to get faster (and run Boston). " I saw myself there.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Hope your hip is improving, and I chuckled when I read an oh so familiar theme of "Hmmm, I am a reasonably speedy runner. What can I do to get faster (and run Boston). " I saw myself there.

Thanks! Slowly getting there.

Did you ever get to BQ/come close? 12 months ago, I barely knew anything about marathons, despite DH constantly droning about his training and BQ quest (he's yet to qualify). But as soon as I pick up one of his hobbies my competitive side kicks in...

 

[jmasgat]

Thanks! Slowly getting there.

Did you ever get to BQ/come close? 12 months ago, I barely knew anything about marathons, despite DH constantly droning about his training and BQ quest (he's yet to qualify). But as soon as I pick up one of his hobbies my competitive side kicks in...

Yes, I've run Boston twice. My first marathon--at Disney--I ran 5 minutes over the BQ time. So I trained for and ran a second later that year and qualified. My first Boston, I re-qualified, but didn't go back to run it. I did Dopey in 2018 and BQ'ed then. So I did Boston last year, although I was injured.

It's a great goal, and I benefited from being 50+ when I qualified, so I had a more generous time.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Finally got in to see the sports physiotherapist.

Diagnosis: dynamic hip instability due to hypermobility.

Treatment: Daily hip exercises, with short, easy runs only, for 6 weeks. Can safely continue running, as long as I strength train at least twice a week going forward, and keep pacing within the capabilities of the stabilizing muscles.

The fastest marathoner in my friend group recommended his simple plan of "an hour at low-HR on most days, adding a weekly long run at lowish-HR a few months before a race". I love the sound of that! By personality I prefer easy runs to painful "substance runs".

The question is, could a plan like that work for everyone? Or does it just work for Laurence because he's talented? How fast could one get, doing no speed work?

 

[Mumof4mice]

Yes, I've run Boston twice. My first marathon--at Disney--I ran 5 minutes over the BQ time. So I trained for and ran a second later that year and qualified. My first Boston, I re-qualified, but didn't go back to run it. I did Dopey in 2018 and BQ'ed then. So I did Boston last year, although I was injured.

It's a great goal, and I benefited from being 50+ when I qualified, so I had a more generous time.

Wow that's awesome!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

The question is, could a plan like that work for everyone? Or does it just work for Laurence because he's talented? How fast could one get, doing no speed work?

Yes and no. It does work for Laurence possibly because he's been training for so long. So there's less room to grow perhaps. He's not necessarily trying to get any faster, but simply being close to his maximum based on year's of endurance experience. Alternatively, maybe Laurence is really fast, but could potentially be faster if he were to diversify more. But I'm venturing to guess Laurence has already figured out that answer for himself.

With that being said, what you're describing sounds very similar to a Maffetone style training system. Very low HR running all the time. And yes, it will work to a point. I think in that case, volume probably becomes fairly important because the intent is to consistently stress the system but at a low intensity. Will it work as well as something that's a bit more diverse in the pace scheme (aiming to improve VO2max, LT, and aerobic conditioning)? I think that's something that each person has to find out for themselves.

 

[Mumof4mice]

With that being said, what you're describing sounds very similar to a Maffetone style training system. Very low HR running all the time. And yes, it will work to a point. I think in that case, volume probably becomes fairly important because the intent is to consistently stress the system but at a low intensity. Will it work as well as something that's a bit more diverse in the pace scheme (aiming to improve VO2max, LT, and aerobic conditioning)? I think that's something that each person has to find out for themselves.

Thanks Billy. I knew it's wishful thinking. I'm grasping at straws because easy runs are all I'm allowed to do at the moment. I've lost so much fitness just in the last 6 or so weeks!

The physio said my hypermobility (Beighton score 9/9) causes anterior translation of the femoral head. The faster I run, the higher the forces, resulting in aggravation of the hip capsule and pain felt in the front of the hip. I had noticed that strides/I pace would sometimes give me anterior hip niggles, which fits in with the physio's findings. Sigh, they recommended no more speed work until I manage to grow enormous gluteus medius of steel, to hold the femoral head in place.

It does work for Laurence possibly because he's been training for so long. So there's less room to grow perhaps. He's not necessarily trying to get any faster, but simply being close to his maximum based on year's of endurance experience. Alternatively, maybe Laurence is really fast, but could potentially be faster if he were to diversify more. But I'm venturing to guess Laurence has already figured out that answer for himself.

Laurence only occasionally does speed work when he's trying to set a fast 10k/HM to qualified for preferred start for his A races. He says half the time he ends up with some issue somewhere, losing the fitness he gained, and a net zero/net loss overall.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thanks Billy. I knew it's wishful thinking. I'm grasping at straws because easy runs are all I'm allowed to do at the moment. I've lost so much fitness just in the last 6 or so weeks!

Don't worry too much. It's far easier to regain fitness than it is to build new fitness. So while it "feels" like you've lost fitness, it's still there. It would take 8 weeks of absolutely no aerobic exercise to completely wipe out all the work you've done. Looks like the hip issue first occurred at the beginning of the year. So 4-6 weeks. Even just 4-6 weeks of easy running will get you in the same general area you were in. So don't worry, be patient. It usually takes me 25 days post-marathon to feel "normal" and 42 days to recover my HRvPace relationship. While a HM is different, the data's to say, be patient because it takes some time to get it back but far shorter than you think. Just get in those easy runs and be honest with the easyness of it. No pace is too slow.

The physio said my hypermobility (Beighton score 9/9) causes anterior translation of the femoral head. The faster I run, the higher the forces, resulting in aggravation of the hip capsule and pain felt in the front of the hip. I had noticed that strides/I pace would sometimes give me anterior hip niggles, which fits in with the physio's findings. Sigh, they recommended no more speed work until I manage to grow enormous gluteus medius of steel, to hold the femoral head in place.

So did they define "speed work" for you? Like 5k pace, 10k pace, LT pace, HM Tempo, M Tempo, Long Run? Where do they necessarily draw the line for speed work? Even if you can't do strides or 3k pace, even 10k or LT pace is still plenty beneficial months from now when you've fully recovered. Did they give you plans/workouts to generate your gluteus medius of steel?

Laurence only occasionally does speed work when he's trying to set a fast 10k/HM to qualified for preferred start for his A races. He says half the time he ends up with some issue somewhere, losing the fitness he gained, and a net zero/net loss overall.

Make sense. Sometimes the closer you get to the sun the more likely you are to get burned. But sometimes it takes some risk getting that close to realize the beauty that lies on the surface.

 

[Mumof4mice]

So did they define "speed work" for you? Like 5k pace, 10k pace, LT pace, HM Tempo, M Tempo, Long Run? Where do they necessarily draw the line for speed work? Even if you can't do strides or 3k pace, even 10k or LT pace is still plenty beneficial months from now when you've fully recovered. Did they give you plans/workouts to generate your gluteus medius of steel

Yes, I can gradually increase the run duration, then pacing. If a workout gives me 3/10 pain, and the pain improves the next day, that pace is the current limit. Train a bit under that and keep doing stabilizing exercises and weights until my strength improves. If a workout produces >3/10 pain, or 3/10 pain that doesn't improve the next day, rest for 5-7 days immediately and restart slower.

I've been given daily hip abduction and rotation exercises. Since the physio also wants me to stop performing static stretching, I throw in extra sets of hip exercises after running too. I'm starting back at the gym tomorrow with the goal of getting the big lifts (except bench press) above 1x bodyweight.

Boy, this running thing is like a second job!

How is your training going? Hope you are well Billy!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Yes, I can gradually increase the run duration, then pacing. If a workout gives me 3/10 pain, and the pain improves the next day, that pace is the current limit. Train a bit under that and keep doing stabilizing exercises and weights until my strength improves. If a workout produces >3/10 pain, or 3/10 pain that doesn't improve the next day, rest for 5-7 days immediately and restart slower.

I've been given daily hip abduction and rotation exercises. Since the physio also wants me to stop performing static stretching, I throw in extra sets of hip exercises after running too. I'm starting back at the gym tomorrow with the goal of getting the big lifts (except bench press) above 1x bodyweight.

That all seems like solid advice to me!

Boy, this running thing is like a second job!

You're telling me. In 2012 you could barely have paid me to run more than 2-3 miles. Now in 2019/2020, I'm waking up at 2:45am just to make sure I can get in my full workout before work. It's like when they tell us running is a "cheap" sport. Tell that to my bank account!

How is your training going? Hope you are well Billy!

Just biding my time for the next few weeks. The quad hasn't caused much of any issue since Disney. It's there but not preventing me from doing anything. Last night was the indoor cycling Ramp Test which is to fatigue and I was concerned my quad would give up first but it didn't. The results were a 3% drop from Nov 2019, but I expected that. I start pace running tomorrow and so we'll see how I feel by the end of February. That'll be indicative of what racing path I take in the Spring.

 

[Mumof4mice]

You're telling me. In 2012 you could barely have paid me to run more than 2-3 miles. Now in 2019/2020, I'm waking up at 2:45am just to make sure I can get in my full workout before work. It's like when they tell us running is a "cheap" sport. Tell that to my bank account!

Your training isn't a second job - there are workforce laws that enforce minimum standards and prevent that kind of employee abuse. Siberian labor camp (it's winter in Wisconsin)? Except you weren't conscripted. You volunteered hahahahaha!

 

[jmasgat]

I've been given daily hip abduction and rotation exercises. Since the physio also wants me to stop performing static stretching, I throw in extra sets of hip exercises after running too. I'm starting back at the gym tomorrow with the goal of getting the big lifts (except bench press) above 1x bodyweight.

Not that I have any standing to say anything (although I have been prescribed All the hip exercises at one point or another for let's see, hip stress fracture (2019 Boston), IT band issues, etc) BUT I'll chime in anyway ......Please be smart and don't fall into the trap of "if I do MORE of these hip exercises, I'll get better/stronger faster". That can be a recipe for producing overuse issues.

Patience in theses cases is a difficult, but necessary quality.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Not that I have any standing to say anything (although I have been prescribed All the hip exercises at one point or another for let's see, hip stress fracture (2019 Boston), IT band issues, etc) BUT I'll chime in anyway ......Please be smart and don't fall into the trap of "if I do MORE of these hip exercises, I'll get better/stronger faster". That can be a recipe for producing overuse issues.

Patience in theses cases is a difficult, but necessary quality.

That's really great advice. Thank you!

I've got to learn to curb that excitable/addictive behaviour part of my personality. One pain free 10k run yesterday, and I was thinking: let's sign up for the Melbourne Marathon before it sells out.

Hip fracture is no fun! Hope you've made a full recovery.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Another week of easy runs. I feel I'm continuing to lose fitness instead of regaining aerobic conditioning. The good news is the hip stabilizing exercises are working and I've been able to run pain free.

Signing up for the Melbourne Marathon, with a "just finish" goal. I probably, maybe, set goals that were overreaching because of the beginner gains that I enjoyed leading up to the WDW HM. Resolving to be sensible this time (resolution should last at least a few weeks!)

 

[jmasgat]

Glad to hear your hip is improving. I know it's frustrating to feel as though you're going backwards, because, of course, you are in some small way. But you are setting yourself up for longer continued success by letting yourself heal. In 12 years of running, I think this is finally sinking in for me. It may be cliched, but running really has to be treated like a marathon.

Resolving to be sensible this time (resolution should last at least a few weeks!)

This cracks me up. It is so relatable!

 

[Mumof4mice]

It may be cliched, but running really has to be treated like a marathon.

I love this quote. Will endeavour to stick to it.

I was all set to sign up for the uncharge package at Melbourne marathon (immune to sticker shock after WDW) when all the race cancellations were reported. In case Melbourne is also cancelled, I'll skip the extras. Well, if the situation hasn't improved by October, missing out on the marathon would be the least of our worries... Hope it doesn't come to that.

I feel sorry for the runners who trained for months for their cancelled races. But I guess the unpredictability is inherent to the sport and seasoned veterans shrug it off and soldier on.

Had my second appointment with the physiotherapist, who prescribed another month of hip exercises, with easy runs as tolerated. This would likely bore most runners to death. But since I like easy runs it suits me just fine for now.

The bad hip is continuing to behave. Besides the constant "DOMS in the b---" from the posterior chain exercises, there's no pain whatsoever. My peviously easy pace feels easy again!