ROTR Boarding group issues resolution thoughts

For the poster who mentioned the 8 year old kid. I think that one is kinda on the parents for getting her hopes up. When we go with family, we always pick one ride that we will try to get done for each family member, but we always say IF it works out. There have been times where a ride selected by a family member was scheduled to be open, but just because of bad luck or whatever every time we walked over to Indy, it was down. Oh well, what can you do.

Our friend never even tells their kids where they are going until they are there. Even on the plane ride, they just know they are going on vacation. So much just comes up, it's easier just not dealing with the disappointment. And certain rides like ROTR, FOP, etc, they probably won't even hype their kids about because they know there is a good chance they won't ride it.

When we go in Aug, we have already said we will TRY to ride ROTR, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. And these aren't kids that go often. This will have been their second trip since 2012. The last one being early 2019.
 
For the poster who mentioned the 8 year old kid. I think that one is kinda on the parents for getting her hopes up.
Yes, yes, yes, and a thousand more times yes. I am convinced that a big part of preparing children for Disneyland is being very, very clear about our trying to do everything they would like to do but to know and be fully aware of the possibility that, for whatever reason, not all of these expectations may work out as we would like them to. That goes for ROTR, and that goes for everything else. Even with that understanding, kids will of course be disappointed if something they really want to do doesn’t happen and, depending on personality and temperament, this disappointment will, in some cases, result in tears—a great opportunity to teach them to self soothe and help them learn about the unpredictability of life. No harm done. A sentimental observer’s conviction, that those tears will have tainted or even ruined that child’s (or that observer’s) idea about Disneyland being “the happiest place on earth” tells us more about the observer’s (in my opinion unrealistic) expectations than about either the child or the BG system that triggered the tears.

To give another example, some children cry when they trip and skin a knee in the sidewalk. Are we supposed to cover any and all sidewalks with mats to categorically keep those tears from ever happening? No, we don’t. We trust in the kids’ resilience and ability to, with a little help from those who love her or him, cope with the pain and disappointment.

I don’t mean to trivialize the emotions that arise in anybody upon seeing a kid cry. That reaction is an expression of empathy, something of which our world probably needs more rather than less. However, to—in this case—react to my empathic reaction by wanting to not ever make kids cry and to subsequently demand that the entire system be revamped accordingly (as opposed to looking at my own expectations of perfect happiness in regards to all things Disneyland) strikes me as a misguided approach. This is of course just my opinion, and I have no issue with other people’s opinion differing from mine.
 
pokeee99 said:
The ULTIMATE in fair is having a system that promotes a way for everyone to ride. I just can't get the picture of the 8 year old girl crying out of my head.

The problem is that there ISN'T a way for everyone to ride. That's the whole reason for the BGs. And I don't actually believe Disney's primary motivation is fairness. That would be charming, but I suspect that they mostly worry about the logistics of managing everyone who wants to ride and mitigating the impact that has on the rest of the park/crowd/experience. As long as they meet those needs, they probably view a perception of fairness as an added bonus.
 
And I don't actually believe Disney's primary motivation is fairness. That would be charming, but I suspect that they mostly worry about the logistics of managing everyone who wants to ride and mitigating the impact that has on the rest of the park/crowd/experience.
^^^This. Love or hate the boarding group system, it provides logistical benefits to Disney that virtually no other suggested system can match:

1. Discouraging super-early arrivals to the park, which is a security risk and hard staffing cost to Disney.
2. Discouraging loitering/crowding around SWGE and ROTR.
3. Keeping people out of lines and in shops/restaurants.
4. Relatively efficiently managing the line during the ride breakdowns that still occur daily.
5. Simplicity of process and technology (get there, scan in, look at app, done--for both the visitor and Disney).

Providing any kind of standby line would eliminate logistical benefits #1, 2, 3, and 4. Staggering boarding group releases throughout the day would eliminate #5 and potentially #4. Placing "blocks" on individuals who have already ridden would eliminate #5. Furthermore, none of these are likely to result in a net increase of "happy" visitors who feel the system is fair; it would just shift around those who are happy/think the system is fair, and who are unhappy/think the system is unfair.
 

For the poster who mentioned the 8 year old kid. I think that one is kinda on the parents for getting her hopes up. When we go with family, we always pick one ride that we will try to get done for each family member, but we always say IF it works out.

Last week I didn’t even tell my son I was going to try for a boarding group. I didn’t want him to be disappointed if we didn’t get one. He found out we were going to ride the new Star Wars ride when I yelped and jumped up in the air after securing a boarding group and he asked me what I was so happy about, lol.
 
Yes, yes, yes, and a thousand more times yes. I am convinced that a big part of preparing children for Disneyland is being very, very clear about our trying to do everything they would like to do but to know and be fully aware of the possibility that, for whatever reason, not all of these expectations may work out as we would like them to. That goes for ROTR, and that goes for everything else. Even with that understanding, kids will of course be disappointed if something they really want to do doesn’t happen and, depending on personality and temperament, this disappointment will, in some cases, result in tears—a great opportunity to teach them to self soothe and help them learn about the unpredictability of life. No harm done. A sentimental observer’s conviction, that those tears will have tainted or even ruined that child’s (or that observer’s) idea about Disneyland being “the happiest place on earth” tells us more about the observer’s (in my opinion unrealistic) expectations than about either the child or the BG system that triggered the tears.

To give another example, some children cry when they trip and skin a knee in the sidewalk. Are we supposed to cover any and all sidewalks with mats to categorically keep those tears from ever happening? No, we don’t. We trust in the kids’ resilience and ability to, with a little help from those who love her or him, cope with the pain and disappointment.

I don’t mean to trivialize the emotions that arise in anybody upon seeing a kid cry. That reaction is an expression of empathy, something of which our world probably needs more rather than less. However, to—in this case—react to my empathic reaction by wanting to not ever make kids cry and to subsequently demand that the entire system be revamped accordingly (as opposed to looking at my own expectations of perfect happiness in regards to all things Disneyland) strikes me as a misguided approach. This is of course just my opinion, and I have no issue with other people’s opinion differing from mine.

I wish I could like this more than once.
 
Last week I didn’t even tell my son I was going to try for a boarding group. I didn’t want him to be disappointed if we didn’t get one. He found out we were going to ride the new Star Wars ride when I yelped and jumped up in the air after securing a boarding group and he asked me what I was so happy about, lol.
I had to tell A when we went on opening day to explain why I was getting her up at 5:15 and what all the chaos was about. 😂 But she knew all along that there was a good chance we wouldn’t ride - I always present things that way: plan for the worst, hope for the best! She had decided her back-up plan would be to get Lunar New Year face paint if we failed to ride, so she had something to look forward to either way.

For a lot of kids, dependent on their age and if they know about the ride, etc., I don’t think you can keep it a “secret.” But tempering expectations is always smart. We’ve had other disappointments occur at Disneyland, and it’s a good opportunity for a lesson in perspective.

Obviously no one wants to see sad kids! And I don’t think a crying kid is necessarily because a parent failed; some kids cry a lot no matter what! But the supply and demand for this ride is going to result in disappointment.
 
I had to tell A when we went on opening day to explain why I was getting her up at 5:15 and what all the chaos was about. 😂 But she knew all along that there was a good chance we wouldn’t ride - I always present things that way: plan for the worst, hope for the best! She had decided her back-up plan would be to get Lunar New Year face paint if we failed to ride, so she had something to look forward to either way.

For a lot of kids, dependent on their age and if they know about the ride, etc., I don’t think you can keep it a “secret.” But tempering expectations is always smart. We’ve had other disappointments occur at Disneyland, and it’s a good opportunity for a lesson in perspective.

Obviously no one wants to see sad kids! And I don’t think a crying kid is necessarily because a parent failed; some kids cry a lot no matter what! But the supply and demand for this ride is going to result in disappointment.
Yes you definitely have to keep things realistic with kids! Now that he’s ridden it he will want to ride again so I’ve been telling him how it’s very popular and we were lucky to ride and we might not get so lucky next time. I love your idea about letting them choose a special “back up plan” in case you can’t secure a boarding group. Brilliant!
 
For the poster who mentioned the 8 year old kid. I think that one is kinda on the parents for getting her hopes up. When we go with family, we always pick one ride that we will try to get done for each family member, but we always say IF it works out.
A couple weeks ago, we took my granddaughter (just turned 9) down to try and ride. We started out by saying "We are doing breakfast at Carnation, tea at Steakhouse, we will be hanging out with Person A on Friday and People B on Sat. We will be trying to ride ROTR (which she has been looking forward to.) She said "BEST DAY EVER!!!" Then I made sure she understood we might not get a BG. Her response was "No matter what, it will still be best day ever." Set their expectations, let them know what will most likely happen, and what may or may not happen.
 
Yes you definitely have to keep things realistic with kids! Now that he’s ridden it he will want to ride again so I’ve been telling him how it’s very popular and we were lucky to ride and we might not get so lucky next time. I love your idea about letting them choose a special “back up plan” in case you can’t secure a boarding group. Brilliant!

I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy of managing one's expectations. I do it with my kids before every trip. So, for example, for our March trip, when we're ONLY going to DL for 2 days, our goal is to:
  • make a custom light saber
  • have a fun drink in the Star Wars cantina
  • ride the Millennium Falcon
I've told the kids that we will TRY to get boarding groups for ROTR, but nothing is guaranteed, so if we don't win the Star Wars lottery on either day, then we're still going to have an amazing time. Not getting to go on ONE ride is NOT going to ruin our day.

I think that people who go into trips like this with the expectation of "If I don't get to experience this ONE thing, then my whole vacation is RUINED!" should consider looking at their vacations from a different point of view.
 
Last week I didn’t even tell my son I was going to try for a boarding group. I didn’t want him to be disappointed if we didn’t get one. He found out we were going to ride the new Star Wars ride when I yelped and jumped up in the air after securing a boarding group and he asked me what I was so happy about, lol.
A couple weeks ago, we took my granddaughter (just turned 9) down to try and ride. We started out by saying "We are doing breakfast at Carnation, tea at Steakhouse, we will be hanging out with Person A on Friday and People B on Sat. We will be trying to ride ROTR (which she has been looking forward to.) She said "BEST DAY EVER!!!" Then I made sure she understood we might not get a BG. Her response was "No matter what, it will still be best day ever." Set their expectations, let them know what will most likely happen, and what may or may not happen.
I wholeheartedly agree with the philosophy of managing one's expectations. I do it with my kids before every trip. So, for example, for our March trip, when we're ONLY going to DL for 2 days, our goal is to:
  • make a custom light saber
  • have a fun drink in the Star Wars cantina
  • ride the Millennium Falcon
I've told the kids that we will TRY to get boarding groups for ROTR, but nothing is guaranteed, so if we don't win the Star Wars lottery on either day, then we're still going to have an amazing time. Not getting to go on ONE ride is NOT going to ruin our day.

I think that people who go into trips like this with the expectation of "If I don't get to experience this ONE thing, then my whole vacation is RUINED!" should consider looking at their vacations from a different point of view.
I think these are examples of a perfect way to do it.
We were just over with our friends Sat or Sun evening who are heading to DLR in 3 weeks. They were talking about all they were going to do and hyping up their 10 or 11 year old about ROTR and MFSR since he is a HUGE star wars fan. I pulled the parents aside and talked with them letting them know the BG situation and even sent them a link to this thread telling them they need to read through it. I explained there is no guarantee. They kinda shrugged it off and kept talking to their kid that day about the new ride and how excited they are to ride it. I sure hope they do get a BG and I will give them all the advice I can to help their chances, but if they don't get a BG, their kid is going to be so upset and confused because they have been stating WHEN not IF. And they will have no one to blame but themselves for getting their kids hopes up.
 
OOps, i meant to reply to:


2 tries looks like this:
HH
HT
TH
TT
There are 4 outcomes, and 3 of them include at least 1 heads. 75% chance.

3 tries looks like
HHH
HHT
HTT
HTH
THT
THH
TTH
TTT
There are 8 outcomes, and 7 of them include at least 1 heads. 87.5% chance (7/8)
Fellow stats nerds!! Squee!!!

The resulting probability of course depends on the different draws being independent of each other (as you see here or in the example of 3 people with phones trying together vs one person trying by her- or himself), meaning each try is “drawing from the same pot” and thus the probability remains the same for each round.

Things get a lot more interesting, when each draw changes the pot and the trials are no longer independent. One example would a jar, from which we draw dark or light colored balls. Drawing a dark colored ball then decreases my chances at getting another, because there are now less dark balls in the pot. Replacing the above H with D (dark) and T with L (light) and start out with a jar that has 8 balls in it, 4 of the dark and 4 of them light, we get the following probabilities:

DDD: 0.5 * 0.429 * 0.333 = 0.071 [7.1%]
As you can see, the probabilities to draw another dark ball go down, because each time we take away one of those dark balls, we are less likely to get another, because there are now less of them in the jar.
DDL = DLD = LDD:
0.5 * 0.429 * 0.667 + 2(0.5 * 0.571 * 0.5) = 3 * 0.143 = 0.429 [42.9%]
DLL = LDL = LLD: 42.9%
LLL: 7.1%

So only 7.1% would end up with 3 light balls, while 92.9% would get at least one dark ball.

If we now try to figure the odds of getting a BG if those are released in three different blocks throughout the day, we again deal with variations in probability for each of those three BG drops. The difference (when compared with the above jar example): The change in odds is affected by the park’s crowd patterns. Relatively few people tend to be there at opening—even now that ROTR is drawing more people early on than before—the majority of people usually arrives throughout the day.

So, what would this mean to the number of crying children? Do we end up with more or less heartbreak? I’ll dig up a few numbers and will plug them in and report back.
🤓
 
Fellow stats nerds!! Squee!!!

The resulting probability of course depends on the different draws being independent of each other (as you see here or in the example of 3 people with phones trying together vs one person trying by her- or himself), meaning each try is “drawing from the same pot” and thus the probability remains the same for each round.

Things get a lot more interesting, when each draw changes the pot and the trials are no longer independent. One example would a jar, from which we draw dark or light colored balls. Drawing a dark colored ball then decreases my chances at getting another, because there are now less dark balls in the pot. Replacing the above H with D (dark) and T with L (light) and start out with a jar that has 8 balls in it, 4 of the dark and 4 of them light, we get the following probabilities:

DDD: 0.5 * 0.429 * 0.333 = 0.071 [7.1%]
As you can see, the probabilities to draw another dark ball go down, because each time we take away one of those dark balls, we are less likely to get another, because there are now less of them in the jar.
DDL = DLD = LDD:
0.5 * 0.429 * 0.667 + 2(0.5 * 0.571 * 0.5) = 3 * 0.143 = 0.429 [42.9%]
DLL = LDL = LLD: 42.9%
LLL: 7.1%

So only 7.1% would end up with 3 light balls, while 92.9% would get at least one dark ball.

If we now try to figure the odds of getting a BG if those are released in three different blocks throughout the day, we again deal with variations in probability for each of those three BG drops. The difference (when compared with the above jar example): The change in odds is affected by the park’s crowd patterns. Relatively few people tend to be there at opening—even now that ROTR is drawing more people early on than before—the majority of people usually arrives throughout the day.

So, what would this mean to the number of crying children? Do we end up with more or less heartbreak? I’ll dig up a few numbers and will plug them in and report back.
🤓
🤯
 
The problem is that there ISN'T a way for everyone to ride. That's the whole reason for the BGs. And I don't actually believe Disney's primary motivation is fairness. That would be charming, but I suspect that they mostly worry about the logistics of managing everyone who wants to ride and mitigating the impact that has on the rest of the park/crowd/experience. As long as they meet those needs, they probably view a perception of fairness as an added bonus.
I mean even at that point if you had totally gotten your kids hopes up for ROTR, and you didn't get a BG, maybe play it down. Instead of being all we aren't riding so that sucks. Be like, "oh it looks like it's down we'll try later. that's just what happens with new rides they can be a little tricky." The kid might even forget about the ride. And then try the next day. And if the kid asks again later, "It still looks like it's not working. But that's okay because a lot of people won't get to ride the new ride today." So even if they did get the kid excited they could have probably mitigated the damages. I'm not saying it's good to lie to your kid in every situation, but hey you already put yourself in a tricky situation. :confused3 :rolleyes1
 
WARNING: IF MATH GIVES YOU HEADACHES, THIS POST MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!

OK, here are my attempts at quantifying the level of human misery, in which splitting one opening time BG-drop into drops at different times of the day would be likely to result. All of the below is of course based on assumptions and very rough estimates. Though the actual numbers will be different, this makes some of the tendencies I wrote about earlier in this thread a bit more obvious.

First of all, here is my list of assumptions, where I got those numbers, and what potential problems in using them for calculating could be:

Guessed number of total BG-spots: 7500 (there is no information as to the actual size; estimates thrown around here range between 75 and 100 spots per group—who knows, they may even vary them based on how well the ride is doing on any given day—7500 would cover a relatively decent day of 100 called group of 75 people each or 75 BGs, which is pretty close to their average number of guaranteed groups, at 100 people each; even if the actual number of spots is higher or lower, the tendencies we find in comparing different BG-drop scenarios should more or less hold up to that).

Number of visitors at different times of the day: ~10,000 at opening, ~20,000 at 11am, ~40,000 at 1pm. These numbers are guesses. According to the Orange County Register, the average number of daily Disneyland visitors is around 50,000. In my experience (during summer visits; I don’t know if that pattern would hold during the rest of the year) there is a good size influx of guests between 10:30 to 11, and things get really crowded around midday and stay like that until fairly late in the afternoon). So, just that I have some numbers to work with, I’m proposing that the hypothetical day that underlies the below calculations has 10,000 people in the park upon opening, 20,000 around 11am, and 40,000 around 1pm (I’m not using the full 50,000, since I figure some locals will come once the evening to hang out or eat and some families with small kids will leave early, so I don’t expect the estimated 50,000 to be all in them park at once).

I have absolutely no idea how many of those guests are children, so I’m taking a very wild guess and say 25% (by common sense understanding of the term rather than Disney’s ticketing policies which of course count anybody over 10 as an “adult”). In order to come up with something to visualize I’ll also boldly assume that 10% of those kids will cry if they don’t get to ride.

I neglect a number of factors such as differences according to weekday/weekend, school holidays, AP block calendars, people who visit the park & couldn’t care less about Star Wars & this ride, differences in phone speed and Disboards-reading-frequency, etc. etc. Since I am not looking for actual accurate numbers but tendencies that become visible at different possible scenarios of BG-distribution, I figure that all of the above would be affecting the three scenarios more or less evenly.

Here are the three cases I’m looking at:

(A) distribution as it’s currently done—one BG drop upon opening; (B) splitting all BG slots into three equal chunks and distribute those at 1.) opening, 2.) 11am, and 3.) 1pm; (C) splitting all BG slots into three differently sized chunks, trying to keep the odds relatively constant by releasing the largest chunk when we expect to find the largest number of people in the park

Here it goes:

(A) Given the above made assumptions, this would result in 7,500 out of 10,000 participants (either by using their own phone or, in case of many younger kids being part of somebody else’s “boarding party”) being successful in snagging a spot. This also means that 10,000 - 7,500 = 2,500 people won’t get one. If we, per our above estimation, assume that 25% of those 2,500 disappointed people (625) are children and that 10% of those children are upset enough that they cry, then we would in this case end up with 63 crying children spread out all over the park (rounded from 62.5).

Let’s look at the (suggested by some posters in this board as better) alternative (B): Three equal drops of 2,500 slots each, one at opening for 10,000 people, one at 11am for 17,500 people (20,000 minus the 2,500 who already got a BG at the first drop), and one at 2pm for 35,000 people (40,000 - 5,000).

B.1. Eerie silence settles over the park, while people frantically operate their phones. However, instead of the happy 75% we had in scenario (A), two thirds of the slots are held back for the later two drops, meaning we get only 25% “winners,” resulting in 7,500 disappointed people and, if we use the same ratios as above, 1875 very, very sad children, 188 of which—three times the number of those in scenario (A)—start crying.

B.2. 11am — The same number of BGs is released, but by now there are far more people in the park (20,000, according to our above estimate). Subtract the initial 2,500 who already got a BG and you get 17,500 eligible visitors competing for 2,500 slots. This results in 15,000 disappointed guests, 3750 of which are children, 375 of which are now crying. What’s worse, out of the 7,500 people who were already disappointed in the first round 7,500 (15,000/17,500) or 7,500 * 85.7%, namely 6428 people, among which would be over 1600 disappointed children, would now have gone through the experience of hoping for a BG and missing out twice.

B.3. 2,500 BG for 35,000 (40,000 minus the 5,000 who already got one) people => 32,500 broken hearts, 8125 children, 813 of which are now crying. Children who had to go through this three times now: (7,500 * 85.7% * 92.9%)4 = 1,493

Well, how about adjusting the size of the drops according to the expected crowd sizes? Would that work?

(C) If we try to keep the odds fairly constant, we arrive at a BG slot drop size of 1150 (11.5%) for the first drop, 2168 (11.5%) for the 20,000 - 1,150 people placing their hopes in the 2nd drop, and 4,182 (11.4%) for the third. The resulting numbers of crying children would be: 2213 disappointed children in round one, 221 of which are now crying—more than in scenario (B), since we’re keeping more BG for later than in either of the first two scenarios. Round 2 leaves us with 4171 very sad children, 417 of which are crying, and 1958 children, crying or not, who had to go through this agonizing process twice. In Round 3 we again get 8125 disappointed children, 813 of them crying. The number of children who would have now experienced this disappointment three times would be 1,735. Because we held back the largest number to the end, the number of multiple disappointments becomes higher. Thus, what may intuitively strikes us as “fairer” way of distribution is actually likely to cause fat more misery.

Compare this to the 625 children in (A), and the current BG drop procedure doesn’t look as bad after all, does it?
 
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I mean even at that point if you had totally gotten your kids hopes up for ROTR, and you didn't get a BG, maybe play it down. Instead of being all we aren't riding so that sucks.
I wonder how many of the crying has to do with some of the parents’ being big Star Wars fans, intensely emotionally invested in this, and so disappointed themselves when they don’t get to ride. Kids pick up on that.
 
WARNING: IF MATH GIVES YOU HEADACHES, THIS POST MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!

OK, here are my attempts at quantifying the level of human misery, in which splitting one opening time BG-drop into drops at different times of the day would be likely to result. All of the below is of course based on assumptions and very rough estimates. Though the actual numbers will be different, this makes some of the tendencies I wrote about earlier in this thread a bit more obvious.

First of all, here is my list of assumptions, where I got those numbers, and what potential problems in using them for calculating could be:

Guessed number of total BG-spots: 7500 (there is no information as to the actual size; estimates thrown around here range between 75 and 100 spots per group—who knows, they may even vary them based on how well the ride is doing on any given day—7500 would cover a relatively decent day of 100 called group of 75 people each or 75 BGs, which is pretty close to their average number of guaranteed groups, at 100 people each; even if the actual number of spots is higher or lower, the tendencies we find in comparing different BG-drop scenarios should more or less hold up to that).

Number of visitors at different times of the day: ~10,000 at opening, ~20,000 at 11am, ~40,000 at 1pm. These numbers are guesses. According to the Orange County Register, the average number of daily Disneyland visitors is around 50,000. In my experience (during summer visits; I don’t know if that pattern would hold during the rest of the year) there is a good size influx of guests between 10:30 to 11, and things get really crowded around midday and stay like that until fairly late in the afternoon). So, just that I have some numbers to work with, I’m proposing that the hypothetical day that underlies the below calculations has 10,000 people in the park upon opening, 20,000 around 11am, and 40,000 around 1pm (I’m not using the full 50,000, since I figure some locals will come once the evening to hang out or eat and some families with small kids will leave early, so I don’t expect the estimated 50,000 to be all in them park at once).

I have absolutely no idea how many of those guests are children, so I’m taking a very wild guess and say 25% (by common sense understanding of the term rather than Disney’s ticketing policies which of course count anybody over 10 as an “adult”). In order to come up with something to visualize I’ll also boldly assume that 10% of those kids will cry if they don’t get to ride.

I neglect a number of factors such as differences according to weekday/weekend, school holidays, AP block calendars, people who visit the park & couldn’t care less about Star Wars & this ride, differences in phone speed and Disboards-reading-frequency, etc. etc. Since I am not looking for actual accurate numbers but tendencies that become visible at different possible scenarios of BG-distribution, I figure that all of the above would be affecting the three scenarios more or less evenly.

Here are the three cases I’m looking at:

(A) distribution as it’s currently done—one BG drop upon opening; (B) splitting all BG slots into three equal chunks and distribute those at 1.) opening, 2.) 11am, and 3.) 1pm; (C) splitting all BG slots into three differently sized chunks, trying to keep the odds relatively constant by releasing the largest chunk when we expect to find the largest number of people in the park

Here it goes:

(A) Given the above made assumptions, this would result in 7,500 out of 10,000 participants (either by using their own phone or, in case of many younger kids being part of somebody else’s “boarding party”) being successful in snagging a spot. This also means that 10,000 - 7,500 = 2,500 people won’t get one. If we, per our above estimation, assume that 25% of those 2,500 disappointed people (625) are children and that 10% of those children are upset enough that they cry, then we would in this case end up with 63 crying children spread out all over the park (rounded from 62.5).

Let’s look at the (suggested by some posters in this board as better) alternative (B): Three equal drops of 2,500 slots each, one at opening for 10,000 people, one at 11am for 17,500 people (20,000 minus the 2,500 who already got a BG at the first drop), and one at 2pm for 35,000 people (40,000 - 5,000).

B.1. Eerie silence settles over the park, while people frantically operate their phones. However, instead of the happy 75% we had in scenario (A), two thirds of the slots are held back for the later two drops, meaning we get only 25% “winners,” resulting in 7,500 disappointed people and, if we use the same ratios as above, 1875 very, very sad children, 188 of which—three times the number of those in scenario (A)—start crying.

B.2. 11am — The same number of BGs is released, but by now there are far more people in the park (20,000, according to our above estimate). Subtract the initial 2,500 who already got a BG and you get 17,500 eligible visitors competing for 2,500 slots. This results in 15,000 disappointed guests, 3750 of which are children, 375 of which are now crying. What’s worse, out of the 7,500 people who were already disappointed in the first round 7,500 (15,000/17,500) or 7,500 * 85.7%, namely 6428 people, among which would be over 1600 disappointed children, would now have gone through the experience of hoping for a BG and missing out twice.

B.3. 2,500 BG for 35,000 (40,000 minus the 5,000 who already got one) people => 32,500 broken hearts, 8125 children, 813 of which are now crying. Children who had to go through this three times now: (7,500 * 85.7% * 92.9%)4 = 1,493

Well, how about adjusting the size of the drops according to the expected crowd sizes? Would that work?

(C) If we try to keep the odds fairly constant, we arrive at a BG slot drop size of 1150 (11.5%) for the first drop, 2168 (11.5%) for the 20,000 - 1,150 people placing their hopes in the 2nd drop, and 4,182 (11.4%) for the third. The resulting numbers of crying children would be: 2213 disappointed children in round one, 221 of which are now crying—more than in scenario (B), since we’re keeping more BG for later than in either of the first two scenarios. Round 2 leaves us with 4171 very sad children, 417 of which are crying, and 1958 children, crying or not, who had to go through this agonizing process twice. In Round 3 we again get 8125 disappointed children, 813 of them crying. The number of children who would have now experienced this disappointment three times would be 1,735. Because we held back the largest number to the end, the number of multiple disappointments becomes higher. Thus, what may intuitively strikes us as “fairer” way of distribution is actually likely to cause fat more misery.

Compare this to the 625 children in (A), and the current BG drop procedure doesn’t look as bad after all, does it?

Wow.
This is amazing.
 
WARNING: IF MATH GIVES YOU HEADACHES, THIS POST MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!

OK, here are my attempts at quantifying the level of human misery, in which splitting one opening time BG-drop into drops at different times of the day would be likely to result. All of the below is of course based on assumptions and very rough estimates. Though the actual numbers will be different, this makes some of the tendencies I wrote about earlier in this thread a bit more obvious.

First of all, here is my list of assumptions, where I got those numbers, and what potential problems in using them for calculating could be:

Guessed number of total BG-spots: 7500 (there is no information as to the actual size; estimates thrown around here range between 75 and 100 spots per group—who knows, they may even vary them based on how well the ride is doing on any given day—7500 would cover a relatively decent day of 100 called group of 75 people each or 75 BGs, which is pretty close to their average number of guaranteed groups, at 100 people each; even if the actual number of spots is higher or lower, the tendencies we find in comparing different BG-drop scenarios should more or less hold up to that).

Number of visitors at different times of the day: ~10,000 at opening, ~20,000 at 11am, ~40,000 at 1pm. These numbers are guesses. According to the Orange County Register, the average number of daily Disneyland visitors is around 50,000. In my experience (during summer visits; I don’t know if that pattern would hold during the rest of the year) there is a good size influx of guests between 10:30 to 11, and things get really crowded around midday and stay like that until fairly late in the afternoon). So, just that I have some numbers to work with, I’m proposing that the hypothetical day that underlies the below calculations has 10,000 people in the park upon opening, 20,000 around 11am, and 40,000 around 1pm (I’m not using the full 50,000, since I figure some locals will come once the evening to hang out or eat and some families with small kids will leave early, so I don’t expect the estimated 50,000 to be all in them park at once).

I have absolutely no idea how many of those guests are children, so I’m taking a very wild guess and say 25% (by common sense understanding of the term rather than Disney’s ticketing policies which of course count anybody over 10 as an “adult”). In order to come up with something to visualize I’ll also boldly assume that 10% of those kids will cry if they don’t get to ride.

I neglect a number of factors such as differences according to weekday/weekend, school holidays, AP block calendars, people who visit the park & couldn’t care less about Star Wars & this ride, differences in phone speed and Disboards-reading-frequency, etc. etc. Since I am not looking for actual accurate numbers but tendencies that become visible at different possible scenarios of BG-distribution, I figure that all of the above would be affecting the three scenarios more or less evenly.

Here are the three cases I’m looking at:

(A) distribution as it’s currently done—one BG drop upon opening; (B) splitting all BG slots into three equal chunks and distribute those at 1.) opening, 2.) 11am, and 3.) 1pm; (C) splitting all BG slots into three differently sized chunks, trying to keep the odds relatively constant by releasing the largest chunk when we expect to find the largest number of people in the park

Here it goes:

(A) Given the above made assumptions, this would result in 7,500 out of 10,000 participants (either by using their own phone or, in case of many younger kids being part of somebody else’s “boarding party”) being successful in snagging a spot. This also means that 10,000 - 7,500 = 2,500 people won’t get one. If we, per our above estimation, assume that 25% of those 2,500 disappointed people (625) are children and that 10% of those children are upset enough that they cry, then we would in this case end up with 63 crying children spread out all over the park (rounded from 62.5).

Let’s look at the (suggested by some posters in this board as better) alternative (B): Three equal drops of 2,500 slots each, one at opening for 10,000 people, one at 11am for 17,500 people (20,000 minus the 2,500 who already got a BG at the first drop), and one at 2pm for 35,000 people (40,000 - 5,000).

B.1. Eerie silence settles over the park, while people frantically operate their phones. However, instead of the happy 75% we had in scenario (A), two thirds of the slots are held back for the later two drops, meaning we get only 25% “winners,” resulting in 7,500 disappointed people and, if we use the same ratios as above, 1875 very, very sad children, 188 of which—three times the number of those in scenario (A)—start crying.

B.2. 11am — The same number of BGs is released, but by now there are far more people in the park (20,000, according to our above estimate). Subtract the initial 2,500 who already got a BG and you get 17,500 eligible visitors competing for 2,500 slots. This results in 15,000 disappointed guests, 3750 of which are children, 375 of which are now crying. What’s worse, out of the 7,500 people who were already disappointed in the first round 7,500 (15,000/17,500) or 7,500 * 85.7%, namely 6428 people, among which would be over 1600 disappointed children, would now have gone through the experience of hoping for a BG and missing out twice.

B.3. 2,500 BG for 35,000 (40,000 minus the 5,000 who already got one) people => 32,500 broken hearts, 8125 children, 813 of which are now crying. Children who had to go through this three times now: (7,500 * 85.7% * 92.9%)4 = 1,493

Well, how about adjusting the size of the drops according to the expected crowd sizes? Would that work?

(C) If we try to keep the odds fairly constant, we arrive at a BG slot drop size of 1150 (11.5%) for the first drop, 2168 (11.5%) for the 20,000 - 1,150 people placing their hopes in the 2nd drop, and 4,182 (11.4%) for the third. The resulting numbers of crying children would be: 2213 disappointed children in round one, 221 of which are now crying—more than in scenario (B), since we’re keeping more BG for later than in either of the first two scenarios. Round 2 leaves us with 4171 very sad children, 417 of which are crying, and 1958 children, crying or not, who had to go through this agonizing process twice. In Round 3 we again get 8125 disappointed children, 813 of them crying. The number of children who would have now experienced this disappointment three times would be 1,735. Because we held back the largest number to the end, the number of multiple disappointments becomes higher. Thus, what may intuitively strikes us as “fairer” way of distribution is actually likely to cause fat more misery.

Compare this to the 625 children in (A), and the current BG drop procedure doesn’t look as bad after all, does it?
This is great; I definitely chuckled at the point where you explained your math conclusions that led to 63 crying children around the park (although I do not chuckle at crying children in the flesh).

Back when they announced BGs, I had been one who suggested staggering the BG distribution in order to alleviate the anticipated stress of getting everyone in for rope drop - I did not anticipate that Disney would drop the entrance photos and process people as quickly as they have been able to.

Given that reality has been that if you are in the Esplanade 30-40 minutes before the park opens, you can generally get in without difficulty, there’s not really an upside/need to spread out distribution. Certainly no one wants to up the misery index to 800+ crying children. 😉
 
WARNING: IF MATH GIVES YOU HEADACHES, THIS POST MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!

OK, here are my attempts at quantifying the level of human misery, in which splitting one opening time BG-drop into drops at different times of the day would be likely to result. All of the below is of course based on assumptions and very rough estimates. Though the actual numbers will be different, this makes some of the tendencies I wrote about earlier in this thread a bit more obvious.

First of all, here is my list of assumptions, where I got those numbers, and what potential problems in using them for calculating could be:

Guessed number of total BG-spots: 7500 (there is no information as to the actual size; estimates thrown around here range between 75 and 100 spots per group—who knows, they may even vary them based on how well the ride is doing on any given day—7500 would cover a relatively decent day of 100 called group of 75 people each or 75 BGs, which is pretty close to their average number of guaranteed groups, at 100 people each; even if the actual number of spots is higher or lower, the tendencies we find in comparing different BG-drop scenarios should more or less hold up to that).

Number of visitors at different times of the day: ~10,000 at opening, ~20,000 at 11am, ~40,000 at 1pm. These numbers are guesses. According to the Orange County Register, the average number of daily Disneyland visitors is around 50,000. In my experience (during summer visits; I don’t know if that pattern would hold during the rest of the year) there is a good size influx of guests between 10:30 to 11, and things get really crowded around midday and stay like that until fairly late in the afternoon). So, just that I have some numbers to work with, I’m proposing that the hypothetical day that underlies the below calculations has 10,000 people in the park upon opening, 20,000 around 11am, and 40,000 around 1pm (I’m not using the full 50,000, since I figure some locals will come once the evening to hang out or eat and some families with small kids will leave early, so I don’t expect the estimated 50,000 to be all in them park at once).

I have absolutely no idea how many of those guests are children, so I’m taking a very wild guess and say 25% (by common sense understanding of the term rather than Disney’s ticketing policies which of course count anybody over 10 as an “adult”). In order to come up with something to visualize I’ll also boldly assume that 10% of those kids will cry if they don’t get to ride.

I neglect a number of factors such as differences according to weekday/weekend, school holidays, AP block calendars, people who visit the park & couldn’t care less about Star Wars & this ride, differences in phone speed and Disboards-reading-frequency, etc. etc. Since I am not looking for actual accurate numbers but tendencies that become visible at different possible scenarios of BG-distribution, I figure that all of the above would be affecting the three scenarios more or less evenly.

Here are the three cases I’m looking at:

(A) distribution as it’s currently done—one BG drop upon opening; (B) splitting all BG slots into three equal chunks and distribute those at 1.) opening, 2.) 11am, and 3.) 1pm; (C) splitting all BG slots into three differently sized chunks, trying to keep the odds relatively constant by releasing the largest chunk when we expect to find the largest number of people in the park

Here it goes:

(A) Given the above made assumptions, this would result in 7,500 out of 10,000 participants (either by using their own phone or, in case of many younger kids being part of somebody else’s “boarding party”) being successful in snagging a spot. This also means that 10,000 - 7,500 = 2,500 people won’t get one. If we, per our above estimation, assume that 25% of those 2,500 disappointed people (625) are children and that 10% of those children are upset enough that they cry, then we would in this case end up with 63 crying children spread out all over the park (rounded from 62.5).

Let’s look at the (suggested by some posters in this board as better) alternative (B): Three equal drops of 2,500 slots each, one at opening for 10,000 people, one at 11am for 17,500 people (20,000 minus the 2,500 who already got a BG at the first drop), and one at 2pm for 35,000 people (40,000 - 5,000).

B.1. Eerie silence settles over the park, while people frantically operate their phones. However, instead of the happy 75% we had in scenario (A), two thirds of the slots are held back for the later two drops, meaning we get only 25% “winners,” resulting in 7,500 disappointed people and, if we use the same ratios as above, 1875 very, very sad children, 188 of which—three times the number of those in scenario (A)—start crying.

B.2. 11am — The same number of BGs is released, but by now there are far more people in the park (20,000, according to our above estimate). Subtract the initial 2,500 who already got a BG and you get 17,500 eligible visitors competing for 2,500 slots. This results in 15,000 disappointed guests, 3750 of which are children, 375 of which are now crying. What’s worse, out of the 7,500 people who were already disappointed in the first round 7,500 (15,000/17,500) or 7,500 * 85.7%, namely 6428 people, among which would be over 1600 disappointed children, would now have gone through the experience of hoping for a BG and missing out twice.

B.3. 2,500 BG for 35,000 (40,000 minus the 5,000 who already got one) people => 32,500 broken hearts, 8125 children, 813 of which are now crying. Children who had to go through this three times now: (7,500 * 85.7% * 92.9%)4 = 1,493

Well, how about adjusting the size of the drops according to the expected crowd sizes? Would that work?

(C) If we try to keep the odds fairly constant, we arrive at a BG slot drop size of 1150 (11.5%) for the first drop, 2168 (11.5%) for the 20,000 - 1,150 people placing their hopes in the 2nd drop, and 4,182 (11.4%) for the third. The resulting numbers of crying children would be: 2213 disappointed children in round one, 221 of which are now crying—more than in scenario (B), since we’re keeping more BG for later than in either of the first two scenarios. Round 2 leaves us with 4171 very sad children, 417 of which are crying, and 1958 children, crying or not, who had to go through this agonizing process twice. In Round 3 we again get 8125 disappointed children, 813 of them crying. The number of children who would have now experienced this disappointment three times would be 1,735. Because we held back the largest number to the end, the number of multiple disappointments becomes higher. Thus, what may intuitively strikes us as “fairer” way of distribution is actually likely to cause fat more misery.

Compare this to the 625 children in (A), and the current BG drop procedure doesn’t look as bad after all, does it?
I think no matter what way you drop BGs you still get ≈32,500 people who can't ride so each scenario has the same amount of crying children, assuming no one arriving late prepares their kids to not ride ROTR.

I also don't like the argument people are making about single day guests missing out. Assuming the average single day guest does no planning so does not use FP/arrive at rope drop they are bound to miss out on some ride(s). Not counting ROTR, railroad etc. & everything at DCA there's approx. 22 rides at DLR. Even being what I consider generous and allotting 45 mins/line plus 5 mins/ride it would be approx. 18 hours for everything. During peak times DL is only open for 16 hours so even without stopping for food, rest, or bathroom breaks it's impossible to do all the rides at Disneyland in one day if one doesn't do some research and planning.
 
WARNING: IF MATH GIVES YOU HEADACHES, THIS POST MAY BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH!

OK, here are my attempts at quantifying the level of human misery, in which splitting one opening time BG-drop into drops at different times of the day would be likely to result. All of the below is of course based on assumptions and very rough estimates. Though the actual numbers will be different, this makes some of the tendencies I wrote about earlier in this thread a bit more obvious.

First of all, here is my list of assumptions, where I got those numbers, and what potential problems in using them for calculating could be:

Guessed number of total BG-spots: 7500 (there is no information as to the actual size; estimates thrown around here range between 75 and 100 spots per group—who knows, they may even vary them based on how well the ride is doing on any given day—7500 would cover a relatively decent day of 100 called group of 75 people each or 75 BGs, which is pretty close to their average number of guaranteed groups, at 100 people each; even if the actual number of spots is higher or lower, the tendencies we find in comparing different BG-drop scenarios should more or less hold up to that).

Number of visitors at different times of the day: ~10,000 at opening, ~20,000 at 11am, ~40,000 at 1pm. These numbers are guesses. According to the Orange County Register, the average number of daily Disneyland visitors is around 50,000. In my experience (during summer visits; I don’t know if that pattern would hold during the rest of the year) there is a good size influx of guests between 10:30 to 11, and things get really crowded around midday and stay like that until fairly late in the afternoon). So, just that I have some numbers to work with, I’m proposing that the hypothetical day that underlies the below calculations has 10,000 people in the park upon opening, 20,000 around 11am, and 40,000 around 1pm (I’m not using the full 50,000, since I figure some locals will come once the evening to hang out or eat and some families with small kids will leave early, so I don’t expect the estimated 50,000 to be all in them park at once).

I have absolutely no idea how many of those guests are children, so I’m taking a very wild guess and say 25% (by common sense understanding of the term rather than Disney’s ticketing policies which of course count anybody over 10 as an “adult”). In order to come up with something to visualize I’ll also boldly assume that 10% of those kids will cry if they don’t get to ride.

I neglect a number of factors such as differences according to weekday/weekend, school holidays, AP block calendars, people who visit the park & couldn’t care less about Star Wars & this ride, differences in phone speed and Disboards-reading-frequency, etc. etc. Since I am not looking for actual accurate numbers but tendencies that become visible at different possible scenarios of BG-distribution, I figure that all of the above would be affecting the three scenarios more or less evenly.

Here are the three cases I’m looking at:

(A) distribution as it’s currently done—one BG drop upon opening; (B) splitting all BG slots into three equal chunks and distribute those at 1.) opening, 2.) 11am, and 3.) 1pm; (C) splitting all BG slots into three differently sized chunks, trying to keep the odds relatively constant by releasing the largest chunk when we expect to find the largest number of people in the park

Here it goes:

(A) Given the above made assumptions, this would result in 7,500 out of 10,000 participants (either by using their own phone or, in case of many younger kids being part of somebody else’s “boarding party”) being successful in snagging a spot. This also means that 10,000 - 7,500 = 2,500 people won’t get one. If we, per our above estimation, assume that 25% of those 2,500 disappointed people (625) are children and that 10% of those children are upset enough that they cry, then we would in this case end up with 63 crying children spread out all over the park (rounded from 62.5).

Let’s look at the (suggested by some posters in this board as better) alternative (B): Three equal drops of 2,500 slots each, one at opening for 10,000 people, one at 11am for 17,500 people (20,000 minus the 2,500 who already got a BG at the first drop), and one at 2pm for 35,000 people (40,000 - 5,000).

B.1. Eerie silence settles over the park, while people frantically operate their phones. However, instead of the happy 75% we had in scenario (A), two thirds of the slots are held back for the later two drops, meaning we get only 25% “winners,” resulting in 7,500 disappointed people and, if we use the same ratios as above, 1875 very, very sad children, 188 of which—three times the number of those in scenario (A)—start crying.

B.2. 11am — The same number of BGs is released, but by now there are far more people in the park (20,000, according to our above estimate). Subtract the initial 2,500 who already got a BG and you get 17,500 eligible visitors competing for 2,500 slots. This results in 15,000 disappointed guests, 3750 of which are children, 375 of which are now crying. What’s worse, out of the 7,500 people who were already disappointed in the first round 7,500 (15,000/17,500) or 7,500 * 85.7%, namely 6428 people, among which would be over 1600 disappointed children, would now have gone through the experience of hoping for a BG and missing out twice.

B.3. 2,500 BG for 35,000 (40,000 minus the 5,000 who already got one) people => 32,500 broken hearts, 8125 children, 813 of which are now crying. Children who had to go through this three times now: (7,500 * 85.7% * 92.9%)4 = 1,493

Well, how about adjusting the size of the drops according to the expected crowd sizes? Would that work?

(C) If we try to keep the odds fairly constant, we arrive at a BG slot drop size of 1150 (11.5%) for the first drop, 2168 (11.5%) for the 20,000 - 1,150 people placing their hopes in the 2nd drop, and 4,182 (11.4%) for the third. The resulting numbers of crying children would be: 2213 disappointed children in round one, 221 of which are now crying—more than in scenario (B), since we’re keeping more BG for later than in either of the first two scenarios. Round 2 leaves us with 4171 very sad children, 417 of which are crying, and 1958 children, crying or not, who had to go through this agonizing process twice. In Round 3 we again get 8125 disappointed children, 813 of them crying. The number of children who would have now experienced this disappointment three times would be 1,735. Because we held back the largest number to the end, the number of multiple disappointments becomes higher. Thus, what may intuitively strikes us as “fairer” way of distribution is actually likely to cause fat more misery.

Compare this to the 625 children in (A), and the current BG drop procedure doesn’t look as bad after all, does it?
Standing ovation on the math from another statistician! Though I’m curious, did you consider any Bayesian priors? 😜
 












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