Riviera points can only be used at Riviera?

[Robbie Cottam]

You did not actually address my point. What happens when half of riviera contracts are owned by resale owners? You understand that half of the reservations will be taken up by riviera resale owners at that point, right? Another 25%+ will probably be taken up by riviera direct owners. It will become almost impossible to get into riviera for other direct owners. The entire system won’t be flexible. We own plenty of direct points— at three different resorts, one of which is riviera. I’m not worried about getting into riviera. But if you buy at the new poly tower direct, within ten years, it will become very difficult for you to stay at riviera. Isn’t that the entire point of buying direct? Flexibility?

Your point assumes, that direct owners don’t book at the 11 month window.

This is a false assumption.

it also assumes that direct owners are guaranteed availability at other resorts at 7 months…


the flexibility is to be able to use what is available at 7 months…. But is not set in stone….

just like I currently have a waitlist for BCV that I have been waiting one since DECEMBER….

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Thanks for allowing me an opinion lol

And I’m not the only one who has no faith in Disney management. Investors have spoken— just look at the stock price. And analysts have it as sell. Sad.

The stock price has way more to do with Disney plus hemorrhaging money, statement Chapek made about when Disney plus would be profitable, and laws suits against the state. DVC is not even a blip…. In the stock price…

I would love to see a single report where a credible business analysts say “Disney would be doing great, if they could get that DVC resale thing fix”……

I’ll wait while you cite that source

Disney prior management may have opened mouth and insisted foot, and steeped in a pile, but to assume Disney stock is down because DVC, well that far reaching

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Thanks! Clearly DVD have not maintained their reputation universally. We can agree that this is true.

Most Riviera Direct members will be completely unaware of the intricacies of what they have bought into, and may not be delighted when they find out. As you say, we'll only know over time.

Meanwhile, I think I shall change my spiel. "Are you a DVC member?" to which I shall reply, "Yes, but I saved $15K by not going for the discount card.".

First, no I don’t agree that DVD has done anything to tarnish their name.

I also don’t believe most members were completely unaware of the restrictions at RIV…. well I was contemplating my purchase my guide brought them up in the first phone call…

And that discount card you choose not to get saves me about 2k a year…. so after about 8 years i’m still in a better position with 42 years to go….

so congratulation on your short terms savings….

btw my 20 discount will continue to saving more each year …. As prices rise…. You have already received your 15,000 dollar saving and it will never get any bigger

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I’ll try to explain. It is convoluted on Disney’s part.

If half of riviera owners are resale owners, and this will happen as direct owners sell their contracts, as many are doing now as evidenced on resale websites, those points become riviera only points. That means those points can only be used at riviera. That means those rooms will be booked up by riviera resale owners and unavailable to other people. Yes, Disney is doing a great job of punishing riviera resale owners. Bravo. Lol. But they are also punishing other direct owners who might want to book at riviera. If Disney’s sales pitch for direct is direct gives you flexibility…

Eventually they will get sued with that sales pitch. Just like they got sued by annual pass holders in Disneyland. They sold an annual pass which people thought would give them access to their parks. But in reality, access was very restricted. If Disney keeps selling dvc with the idea of you can stay wherever with your direct points, when in reality I’m never going to be able to get into certain resorts— not simply because those resorts are popular but because Disney has structured the system so that I cannot get into the resorts. Lawsuits. Just wait.

Not sure that would go very far, because unlike the annual pass lawsuit that listed ‘no black out days‘ the DVC contract allows you access to occupied rooms…. There is not promise there will be availability at other resorts

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I’ll try to explain. It is convoluted on Disney’s part.

If half of riviera owners are resale owners, and this will happen as direct owners sell their contracts, as many are doing now as evidenced on resale websites, those points become riviera only points. That means those points can only be used at riviera. That means those rooms will be booked up by riviera resale owners and unavailable to other people. Yes, Disney is doing a great job of punishing riviera resale owners. Bravo. Lol. But they are also punishing other direct owners who might want to book at riviera. If Disney’s sales pitch for direct is direct gives you flexibility…

Eventually they will get sued with that sales pitch. Just like they got sued by annual pass holders in Disneyland. They sold an annual pass which people thought would give them access to their parks. But in reality, access was very restricted. If Disney keeps selling dvc with the idea of you can stay wherever with your direct points, when in reality I’m never going to be able to get into certain resorts— not simply because those resorts are popular but because Disney has structured the system so that I cannot get into the resorts. Lawsuits. Just wait.

Not sure that would go very far, because unlike the annual pass lawsuit that listed ‘no black out days‘ the DVC contract allows access to rooms that have not been confirmed in The entire system… not promise of a room at any resort ….

 

[Robbie Cottam]

This is very simple…..

direct Riv owners can use there points anywhere ….
when the direct owners transfer out to another resort, they will be openings of other direct owner to transfer in…..

the entire claim that it going to crash the system is based on fear and buyers remorse …

Nothing that has been repeated ad nauseam, is any different than trying to book at a popular resort…

the only things that this panic *****‘n cause is the thing you are most worried about…. The value of your membership will drop…..

change is never easy, this is the start of a new phase of DVC….

DVC has identified a problem with the system, and has taken steps to correct it….

the solution is simple but direct,

 

[Superbri7]

Is this true only if you buy Riviera on the resale market? Can Riviera points that are bought direct from DVC be used anywhere at 7 months, just like any other resort's points? If they made any such usage restrictions on Riviera points, even just on resale points, why did they? Is there some legal reason that they had to, or did they just do it because they could, maybe they thought "we'll try to add this added layer of making it harder to buy resale and see how it works." I know I read somewhere recently that the restrictions on Riviera Points were affecting how not quickly they're selling, and that got me wondering. Lastly, if DVC wanted, could they remove the restrictions? Either just going forward or on all points at Riviera?

Yup direct RIV points are unrestricted

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Since this thread has gone sideway;

here is how i believe this will play out;

resale owners with get sick of restrictions and want to sell.
because on internet chatter, the resale value will be pretty low…
as contracts come in below disney snatch threshold, the will grab them…

with one resort it doesn’t make a ton of sense to do this but with 4 next year… Disney increases the ‘resale’ business resealing these points as direct …

you’ll never see 5- percent resale because Disney will have sold most of the RIV points, in some cases multiple times …

 

[zavandor]

Eventually they will get sued with that sales pitch. Just like they got sued by annual pass holders in Disneyland. They sold an annual pass which people thought would give them access to their parks. But in reality, access was very restricted. If Disney keeps selling dvc with the idea of you can stay wherever with your direct points, when in reality I’m never going to be able to get into certain resorts— not simply because those resorts are popular but because Disney has structured the system so that I cannot get into the resorts. Lawsuits. Just wait.

I don't like the resale restrictions anymore than you (even if I'm only marginally impacted), but the only thing that is guaranteed to owners of a resort is that they can book one month before other owners. It's not even guaranteed they can get a room at all, it's a "first come first serve" system. Any purchaser acknowledge this signing a document (and resale purchasers assume the same rights and obligations, even if they dont' sign that specific document).
I don't think anyone can sue just because they cannot manage to book other resorts.

That said, there is a strong case about suing for the introduction of the resale restrictions, but it's due to how RIV joined the Buena Vista Trading Company. More details here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...t-to-revert-dvcs-resale-restrictions.3747861/
Unless someone is willing to go to court, we'll never know.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I don't like the resale restrictions anymore than you (even if I'm only marginally impacted), but the only thing that is guaranteed to owners of a resort is that they can book one month before other owners. It's not even guaranteed they can get a room at all, it's a "first come first serve" system. Any purchaser acknowledge this signing a document (and resale purchasers assume the same rights and obligations, even if they dont' sign that specific document).
I don't think anyone can sue just because they cannot manage to book other resorts.

That said, there is a strong case about suing for the introduction of the resale restrictions, but it's due to how RIV joined the Buena Vista Trading Company. More details here:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...t-to-revert-dvcs-resale-restrictions.3747861/
Unless someone is willing to go to court, we'll never know.

I'm not sure the case is as strong as you think it is.

Master Deed, Section VII "Miscellaneous Provisions", subsection 7.2 "Amendment of this Agreement":

"DVCMC in it's sole discretion may change the terms and conditions of this Agreement and the Home Resort Rules and Regulations. These changes may affect an Owner's right to use, exchange and rent the Owner's Ownership Interest and impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of the Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club membership. Such changes many be made by DVCMC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase or decrease the Club Member's costs of ownership. Further, although DVCMC generally is required to make such changes in a manner which, in its reasonable business judgement, improves upon the quality and operation of the Vacation Ownership Plan and furthers the collective enjoyment of its benefits by the Club Members taken as a whole, such changes under some circumstances may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could adversely affect their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them. Notice of any amendment shall be mailed by DVCMC to each Club Member or to the designated representative of each Multiple Club Member at the Club Member's or designated representative's last known mailing address prior to its effective date."

 

[zavandor]

I'm not sure the case is as strong as you think it is.

Master Deed, Section VII "Miscellaneous Provisions", subsection 7.2 "Amendment of this Agreement":

"DVCMC in it's sole discretion may change the terms and conditions of this Agreement and the Home Resort Rules and Regulations. These changes may affect an Owner's right to use, exchange and rent the Owner's Ownership Interest and impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of the Ownership Interest and the appurtenant Club membership. Such changes many be made by DVCMC without the consent of any Club Member and may adversely affect a Club Member's rights and benefits and increase or decrease the Club Member's costs of ownership. Further, although DVCMC generally is required to make such changes in a manner which, in its reasonable business judgement, improves upon the quality and operation of the Vacation Ownership Plan and furthers the collective enjoyment of its benefits by the Club Members taken as a whole, such changes under some circumstances may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could adversely affect their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them. Notice of any amendment shall be mailed by DVCMC to each Club Member or to the designated representative of each Multiple Club Member at the Club Member's or designated representative's last known mailing address prior to its effective date."

I'm sure you've read the thread I linked. What do you think about what was discussed there?

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I'm sure you've read the thread I linked. What do you think about what was discussed there?

I didn't,
but have you heard the expression "comfort room attorney"

That thread is over four years old! Do you think their is a reason no one has filed anything yet?

Also, I believe the POS for Riviera was filed in July of 2018. I think the statute of limitation has expired for a contract dispute in Florida.... That might be problematic if I'm correct....

But this line, Which I believe is boilerplate in all the master DEEDS:

Further, although DVCMC generally is required to make such changes in a manner which, in its reasonable business judgment, improves upon the quality and operation of the Vacation Ownership Plan and furthers the collective enjoyment of its benefits by the Club Members taken as a whole, such changes under some circumstances may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could adversely affect their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them.

That is what I would call a Show Stopper

Even if the resale owners were to argue that the restriction adversely affected their ability to use their membership, Which was disclosed to the original Direct purchases and is part of the MASTER DEED.... their argument fails, because the resale owner purchased knowing or should have known the restrictions existed...

Are you familiar with the legal principle of "CAVAET EMPOTR"

 

[Sandisw]

It destroys the product because the best thing about the product is the flexibility. And ironically it destroys flexibility for people who buy direct. For example… What happens when half of riviera owners are resale and can only get into riviera? Well, then it will be pretty tough for direct contract holders of any resort except riviera to get into riviera. Eventually it becomes a weird system where it doesn’t pay to buy direct. Dumb management. Or maybe they are smart and really do want to destroy the product. They seem to want to destroy the entire company as it is. Just look at the stock price. Great job, Iger!

Based on the current resale vs original points at the other resorts, there are none that have 50% resale. So, I think it’s going to take a lot of time for it even to get past the 10% mark.

The other piece is that maybe the rate at which RIV owners will sell will be lower than previous resorts if the resale value becomes too low, like many are predicting?

Once there are a lot more resorts, the contracts changing hands resale may decrease as well given how limited they will be? That alone would temper any direct buyer not being able to exchange to other places.

None of us know for sure, and of course, the rules that DVD put in place and those of BVTC allow them to come up with a lot of creative ways to allow resale points to be exchanged if it begins to hurt the direct buyers to an extent sales are suffering.

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks! Clearly DVD have not maintained their reputation universally. We can agree that this is true.

Most Riviera Direct members will be completely unaware of the intricacies of what they have bought into, and may not be delighted when they find out. As you say, we'll only know over time.

Meanwhile, I think I shall change my spiel. "Are you a DVC member?" to which I shall reply, "Yes, but I saved $15K by not going for the discount card.".

Just to point out that the membership extras and restrictions are two different things. One has nothing to do with the other.

Also, I don’t understand the statement about RIV owners not understanding the product? What are the not going to like? Everything is pretty when you buy and sign the contracts.

 

[Sandisw]

No, my point is that RIV resale owners will be forced to use their points at RIV. You are not forced to use your points at BCV. It’s a structural difference. Disney has structured RIV to become more and more rigid over time. I am kind of getting tired of repeating myself though. It’s not a discussion when you keep pretending like you don’t understand what I am saying and you keep misrepresenting my position. I’m just going to take it that you are an argumentative person and leave it at that. Have a good day. Try to chill out a bit.

Anyone who buys RIV resale is buying it because they want to use it at RIV…meaning they like it enough to be locked into that resort…how is it any different than someone who buys BCV, or VGC, or any other resort that is extremely popular?

That 50% figure you keep using is made up as I don’t believe even OKW is made up of 50% resale points. And, you can’t use the number of resale listings to prove the point because a contract only becomes resale points once….when the original owner sells.

I bought a resale contract and RIV and when I go to sell it, those 125 points won’t impact the ratio at all because they are already resale points.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Based on the current resale vs original points at the other resorts, there are none that have 50% resale. So, I think it’s going to take a lot of time for it even to get past the 10% mark.

The other piece is that maybe the rate at which RIV owners will sell will be lower than previous resorts if the resale value becomes too low, like many are predicting?

Once there are a lot more resorts, the contracts changing hands resale may decrease as well given how limited they will be? That alone would temper any direct buyer not being able to exchange to other places.

None of us know for sure, and of course, the rules that DVD put in place and those of BVTC allow them to come up with a lot of creative ways to allow resale points to be exchanged if it begins to hurt the direct buyers to an extent sales are suffering.

Something else that needs to go into the resale dynamic is many of those resale owners are also direct RIV owners.

Knowing they can only use their resale points at RIV may incentivize them to use their direct points elsewhere....

Opening up some of the perceived resale log jams..

 

[zavandor]

I didn't,
but have you heard the expression "comfort room attorney"

That thread is over four years old! Do you think their is a reason no one has filed anything yet?

Also, I believe the POS for Riviera was filed in July of 2018. I think the statute of limitation has expired for a contract dispute in Florida.... That might be problematic if I'm correct....

But this line, Which I believe is boilerplate in all the master DEEDS:

Further, although DVCMC generally is required to make such changes in a manner which, in its reasonable business judgment, improves upon the quality and operation of the Vacation Ownership Plan and furthers the collective enjoyment of its benefits by the Club Members taken as a whole, such changes under some circumstances may not be to the advantage of some Club Members and could adversely affect their ability to secure reservations when and where they want them.

That is what I would call a Show Stopper

Even if the resale owners were to argue that the restriction adversely affected their ability to use their membership, Which was disclosed to the original Direct purchases and is part of the MASTER DEED.... their argument fails, because the resale owner purchased knowing or should have known the restrictions existed...

Are you familiar with the legal principle of "CAVAET EMPOTR"

I quoted a thread that addresses a specific topic: how Riviera joined the BVTC. When you want to discuss that I'll be happy to.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I quoted a thread that addresses a specific topic: how Riviera joined the BVTC. When you want to discuss that I'll be happy to.

I'm sorry, I don't want to discuss it because I believe it is moot for the reason I have stated.

If you think it is a valid legal strategy based on a valid application of the relevant facts and laws, I morally support you becoming the lead plaintiff in filing a class action lawsuit against Disney, and the alphabet soup that is DVC.

However, I think IF it was a valid complaint, someone would have filed it already.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm sure you've read the thread I linked. What do you think about what was discussed there?

I have read it and my thoughts are that BVTC had the right to amend its agreement with owners and that by grandfathering owners into the terms in which they bought, the language about similar resort…which has now been removed…satisfied their contract being the same.

FL law only applies to rules needing to be the same for owners at the same resort. A resale owner can’t be treated any differently than when buying direct for home resort use.

Exchanges are different and thus can be treated as such. I know there is something regarding the use of the word Vacation Club, but the statute simply means that unless something is part of a multi site timeshare system, the rules of that section of FL law don’t apply…for example, if I have a business called Magic Vacation Club that has to do with trading reservations with others, the law doesn’t apply to me in terms of what my business has to do.

But, it’s never been taken to court and my opinion is of course, just that….but I do lean toward the inclusion of it, and now VDH…would withstand a legal challenge since those owners who have bought resale since 2019 entered into contract with different terms in the multisite POS.

Getting back to the other point….we are indifferent to them, even as an owner of RIV. We bought where we want to be and don’t care about resale value.

No question todays DVC product is different than the one of years past in terms of what might happen if you sell…but using direct points offers the same opportunities as before…and if someone loves RIV, VDH, or any other future restricted resort enough, then they will have no issue buying resale points for use there.

 

[zavandor]

This has been discussed in the thread as well.
If you don't want to spend the time to read about the topic, I'm not going to waste mine recapping it for you.

I'm sorry, I don't want to discuss it because I believe it is moot for the reason I have stated.

If you think it is a valid legal strategy based on a valid application of the relevant facts and laws, I morally support you becoming the lead plaintiff in filing a class action lawsuit against Disney, and the alphabet soup that is DVC.

However, I think IF it was a valid complaint, someone would have filed it already.