Response to my Email

[Walt's Frozen Head]

But, when I'm at the park, I will not waste my time thinking to myself "Damn... this ride would be better if Michael Eisner wasn't running Disney"... I'll be spending my time enjoyning myself.

But, we're not having this discussion at the park. If one is already in the park, one has already made the decision that the admission is likely worth the cost.

We're having this discussion in the place where people are making that decision; are weighing whether Disney or somewhere else shall be their destination. I think it's reasonable to expect that these comparisons and evaluations will be made in this kind of forum.

I am NOT a "company man"

Fair enough, but...

Walt Disney World is still the best vacation spot (and the most popular) in the world. Universal, Vegas, New York, Hawaii... and the rest will NEVER be able to reach the level entertainment you'll get at WDW.

...this statement just doesn't represent a universally (no pun intended) held opinion.

I agree with PlanoGirl that a "select few" unhappy folks can't even come close to explaining the depth of Disney's park attendance problems. It's simply that only a "select few" of the mass of unhappy folks still maintain enough attachment to Disney to continue posting. It seems as though a lot of them cluster on the Rumors and News Board because that is where the first reports of meaningful change are likely to appear.

 

[Another Voice]

"It's "WALT DISNEY WORLD".... enjoy it for what it is... not for what you think it could be!"

But that's exactly the point, isn't it. No one is canceling their trip because Beastly Kingdom wasn't built or because the Mediterranean Resort isn't rising on shores of the Seven Seas Lagoon.

They are canceling their trip because WDW is less than what it was last year.

Planning a trip to WDW has gone from learning about all the wonderful and enjoyable activities available into an exercise in cheap rationalization: "I was very upset that Early Entry was canceled. But after being there and experiencing the magic firsthand...". For the vast majority of real people – not the few who post's are signed with a dozen annual trips – a trip to Disney is a vastly expensive investment. They look at spending that much money as any rational person would: am I getting enough bang for my buck?

For a growing number of potential vacationers, the answer is a resounding no. This has been the steepest and longest decline in WDW attendance - ever. And before you trout out the 9/11 excuse again, this period includes various gas crisis (when over 90% of guests drove to central Florida), the recession in the early eighties (when unemployment was twice to three times what it is today), various wars, Florida tourist murders and other sundry crisis. Today's economy, war scares, SARS and every other line of the PowerPoint Presentation of "It's Not Our Fault" has been faced and overcome in the past. All expect for the current problem.

Disney knows this too; this prolonged downturn (which started in the summer of 2000 – a long time before 9/11) is different. They know there has been a fundamental change in the public's perception of the resort. That's why we're getting all these frantic changes from chicken fingers to spin-the-wheel park hours. It's easier to try to squeeze a few more pennies from a declining business than it is to turn the business around and make it grow. And when you've got a business you like (ABC) and one you think is only for the lower classes (WDW), it's real easy for certain top management to sacrifice one to save the other.

A lot of the changes we've seen at WDW are based on the premise that either people won't notice or they won't care. It was an approach that served Disney well in the 1990's when slapping the Disney® sticker on anything seemed to sell the product. But brand imaging works both ways – it will increase the perceived value of lower end goods but at the same time the weight of bad products will begin to pull down the brand. WDW is suffering from that very fate right now: too many cuts, too many reductions, too many slashes, too many take-it-or-leave-it choices have combined to seriously eroded the value of a WDW vacation. Far from ignoring all "the same things" and naively having a good time, the public is adding them all up and keeping careful track of them.

The decline at WDW is steeper than at the destinations it competes with. WDW does not compete with Universal, Six Flags or with Uncle Joe's Happy Bunnyland & Birthday Carnival down the street. WDW competes with Hawaii and Vegas and New York and the national parks and…and all those places that are showing increases in attendance. In large measure it is because those places are out activity trying to attract guests – not simply assuming the brand monkeys will continue to swarm the main gate. Far from telling their guests to "ignore the little things", they are working to add the little things and the big things that make a place attractive in the first place.

Every time Disney makes a cut someone will always justify it because "Disney is a business". What they are ignoring, of course, is that Disney really is a business and that means more than a glib rationalization meant to shut people up. Customers hold them accountable for their actions. Every closed rides, every cut hour, every reduced meal portions is noticed by someone. While you may not mind, there are twenty others that do. And those twenty people are a lot more important in keeping The Business open then you are.


P.S. Worrying that Eisner is micro-managing the business and my decision to buy a fifty-cent Coke for $2.75 is hardly hypocritical. When I make a decision I only affected my own choices. When Eisner frells up the ending to Signs because he doesn't "get it", that costs the company a lot of money in box office. My decision affect me, his decisions affect everyone.

 

[ThAnswr]

>>>So I'm confused as to what you are complaining about. <<<

So, let me take this opportunity to explain it to you to clear up the confusion.

>>>You are upset because the Magic Kingdom is closing at 7 on one night that you are there? Or is it because they hesitated on posting their hours as quickly as you would have liked?<<<

Actually, both. June operating hours were posted on 5/7 or 5/8 which meant those who had 6/1 reservations at WDW had a little over 3 weeks to figure out their schedule. Some people soldiered on and then found out they had to rework their schedules because they just didn't work for what they wanted to do. Sorry, that's just crappy business.

>>>If it is the hours thing... I don't understand why you would be upset that they are closing at 7 on ONE night.<<<

Now, onto the "hours thing". It isn't quite as simple as "they are closing at 7 on ONE night". But, just as an aside, that same night last year, the MK closed at 10PM with Spectromagic and FITS with an E-night following.

Let's look a little more deeply than just "it's only one night". Here's the MK hours for my time slot:

6/19 9AM-8PM no Spectromagic, no FITS

6/20 9AM-7PM no Spectomagic, no FITS (E-night for and extra $12 each Yea, right!)

6/21 9AM-9:30PM Spectromagic & FITS

6/22 9AM-8PM no Spectromagic, no FITS

6/23 9AM-10PM Spectromagic & FITS

6/24 9AM-9PM no Spectromagic, no FITS

The 2 historically busiest days at the MK, and the days people here are advised to avoid, are Saturday and Monday. Those happen to be the only 2 nights that there will be Spectromagic and FITS. In other words, if everyone in all 4 parks wished to see Spectromagic and FITS, they better be at the MK on the already busiest days. It boils down to this; Disney took 2 of the already busiest days and made them busier. Do you think this is going to be a nightmare of crowds? I sure do.

So let's say, I want to go to MGM and see Fantasmic. Other than 6/24, there is only 1 Fantasmic show. The early Fantasmic show is crowded enough when people had a choice of times. Do you think cutting down on 1 Fantasmic is going to make the one show more or less crowded? I think it's going to be another nightmare of bodies.

Okay, so let's go to BB or TL. Last year, I used at 3PM or so and leave at the closing time of 7:30PM. Not this year.

>>Comparing their hours to Universal, they both seem to be on par with each other, during the time that you will be there, with the exception of the one evening of the e-night.<<<

I knew what the June hours at Universal were months ago. As a matter of fact, the June operating hours have pretty much remained the same for years. The 10PM closings start in July which is when I go to US/IOA. But, if I want to go to US/IOA next December, I already know what they're operating hours are going to be.

>>>Am I off base?<<<

No, you're not off-base. You're just not looking at what the consequences of the operating hours are.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Another Voice

For the vast majority of real people – not the few who post's are signed with a dozen annual trips – a trip to Disney is a vastly expensive investment.

It is expensive if you want to make it expensive. I've gone to Disney sometimes on a dime. There are cheap flights, cheap hotels, cheap rental cars, decent food for a decent price, and the only thing that would remotely be expensive would be your Disney passes. And you mention the vast majority of "real" people. I am lucky that I don't have to pay for a hotel when I come down here. But I still have to pay for air fare, still have to pay for a rental car, still have to pay for my Disney/Universal passes.... So I find it insulting that I'm not a "real" person because I go to Disney 3 to 4 times a year. I can afford to do so by budgeting myself and making decisions, namely... using Southwest for my airfare and Priceline.com for my rental car.

You're just not looking at what the consequences of the operating hours are.

I guess I see no consequences because I usually visit Disney in their "off" season, in January, the beginning of May, and October. So I guess I'm just used to the shorter hours. I have no problem though with getting to a park at 10 or 11 and staying until it closes at 6 or 7, I still have time to do all the rides and shows that I want to see and do, yet still have time for food and shopping.

Actually, both. June operating hours were posted on 5/7 or 5/8 which meant those who had 6/1 reservations at WDW had a little over 3 weeks to figure out their schedule.

I guess I don't understand this either because I don't plan my Disney vacation like an Army drill. "We will be at Magic Kingdom by 8:05 am, we will then proceed to Space Mountain, after that Buzz Lightyear and then break for a snack 9:30 am...." That isn't how I like to spend my vacation, I just sort of go with the flow. When I wake up is when I decide which park to visit, I make judgement calls also based on what day of the week it is, knowing that MK will be more crowded on the weekends....

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
So I find it insulting that I'm not a "real" person because I go to Disney 3 to 4 times a year. I can afford to do so by budgeting myself and making decisions, namely... using Southwest for my airfare and Priceline.com for my rental car.

Maybe average would have been a better term?

I guess I see no consequences because I usually visit Disney in their "off" season, in January, the beginning of May, and October. So I guess I'm just used to the shorter hours. I have no problem though with getting to a park at 10 or 11 and staying until it closes at 6 or 7, I still have time to do all the rides and shows that I want to see and do, yet still have time for food and shopping.

Because you don't miss the hours or need them does not demish the fact that many..many people do.

I guess I don't understand this either because I don't plan my Disney vacation like an Army drill. "We will be at Magic Kingdom by 8:05 am, we will then proceed to Space Mountain, after that Buzz Lightyear and then break for a snack 9:30 am...." That isn't how I like to spend my vacation, I just sort of go with the flow. When I wake up is when I decide which park to visit, I make judgement calls also based on what day of the week it is, knowing that MK will be more crowded on the weekends....

Sorry you don't have to plan this way or don't choose to either. Some people must. There are literally hundreds of threads on the Parks boards on how people tour/plan for Disney. Some people do no planning. Some people do some and some people plan everything. Nobody is forcing you to adjust to their planning style so why should those of us that plan be forced to your style?

 

[doubletrouble_vb]

For me I didn't care about early entry because...I'm on vacation and don't plan to rise early. Shorter hours DO make a difference to those who plan...and I only failed to plan one Disney visit (the one where I thought I could see Epcot in one day).

In the summertime...and June is definitely summer...I expect the parks to be open until at least 9:00pm (AK excepted). Southern schools and colleges are already out and also its hot. If I were vacationing then I'd really like to head back to the hotel for 3 hours in the early afternoon. The idea isn't to do the parks for 13 hours, its being able to make your vacation work for you. I would guess the average visitor spends 6 to 8 hours in the park. Those hours may be from opening until the afternoon or the afternoon until dinner...or like me from just after opening until lunch and then from just before (or after) dinner until closing.

I don't complain all that much about Disney but I will be postponing my every other year Disney trip from Feb 2004 until Oct 2004. That's instead of taking two trips I had planned for 2004. The objective is to give myself as much new stuff to see as possible...the most bang for the buck possible.

 

[ThAnswr]

>>>I guess I don't understand this either because I don't plan my Disney vacation like an Army drill. "We will be at Magic Kingdom by 8:05 am, we will then proceed to Space Mountain, after that Buzz Lightyear and then break for a snack 9:30 am...." That isn't how I like to spend my vacation, I just sort of go with the flow. When I wake up is when I decide which park to visit, I make judgement calls also based on what day of the week it is, knowing that MK will be more crowded on the weekends<<<<

I don't plan my visit like a military campaign either. But, if I want to go to a character meal, I do need to make PS reservations in advance. And to do that, I need to know what the operating hours are in the parks. Gee, what a concept.

And, frankly, I don't give a hoot if I plan my visit like a military drill or spend my time in the hotel pool. To post operating hours less than 1 month in advance tells me that no one has any respect for the customer and that something is very, very wrong when the operating hours seemed to be pulled out of a hat.

 

[pheneix]

>>>It is expensive if you want to make it expensive.<<<

Most people have never even heard of Mousesavers.com, and if they have already made the decision to take their vacation somewhere else they aren't really gonna care either.

>>>I guess I see no consequences because I usually visit Disney in their "off" season<<<

Most people don't have that luxary either. They have to worry about if they can get off work enough days for a trip, whether they can find someone to take care of the dog while they are gone, see if they can pull their kids out of school, etc. Once all that is done, the ONE week out of the year they have to take a trip to WDW can be anywhere from the dead cold of January to July 4th to Thanksgiving. If Disney is offering them a subpar experience during that timeframe, they are gonna know it.

>>>To post operating hours less than 1 month in advance tells me that no one has any respect for the customer and that something is very, very wrong when the operating hours seemed to be pulled out of a hat.<<<

Amen. There isn't one theme park company out there that micro-manages to the point that Disney does. Even Six Flags doesn't micromanage. They just set a miniscule budget for their parks at the start of the fiscal year and let them suffer.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am going to enjoy the heck out of our upcoming vacation. But it will be my last at WDW until WDW earns back my money and my interest. Frankly, fretting and fuming over details is what I do out here in the real world. I expect my time at WDW to be totally different. Except during off season, I expect WDW to have such long hours posted that I won't have to worry about my family getting enough time in the parks (particularly MK). If that makes me selfish, so be it. It's my money that WDW is after; they should know how I feel. Me, DW and our two young kids love MK and we probably will be there at least a good portion of each day of our upcoming 4 day stay.

We like parades and fireworks. For our week, Spectro and and FITS will show only on June 11. Problem is, MK is bound to be just crazy crowded that day. What really aggravates me is that our last night (June 13) the MK closes at 7pmso that an e-ride night may commence. I guess there are different ways to look at things, but for my family that is just basically just a bold offensive insult. This e-ride cash cow is offensive and crude when it starts at 7pm on a Friday night in June.

I thought that by going in June I would get to experience longer hours. As it turns out I could have postponed my trip just a few months and have gotten a better rate on my resort, the thrill of experiencing Mission Space and Philharmagic, and park hours not altogther different from what they are scheduled to be in June. Yeah, all this leaves me witha real magic felling. I am sure that will be reenforced as we are hustled out of MK before dusk on Friday, June 13. That is the last impresion me and my family will have onm our minds as we end our next vacation. GRRRR... I feel so used!

Yes, I may expect too much. But I'll tell you what... I'll be expecting too much as a I spend my money at the beach, at the Grand Canyon, or somewhere else for my next vacation. I understand that WDW is probably still a good value for the dollar, but its a matter of principal to me. I refuse to give my money to some gang of corporate outlaws who are out to rape my wallet. Disney can go under without my support. I don't owe them another dime or another moment. This will be a great excuse fror spending my money on things atht really matter instead of something that is but a shadow of what it used to be. Boy, I really wish things would change by the time I get there in June.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by EUROPA
Because you don't miss the hours or need them does not demish the fact that many..many people do.

And on the flip side there are many people that don't have a problem with the hours also.

Nobody is forcing you to adjust to their planning style so why should those of us that plan be forced to your style?

Where did I say that anyone was forcing me to adjust my planning style? Or where did I say that anyone else needed to adjust theirs?

 

[DisneyKidds]

I certainly don't want to be accused of 'rationalizing shorter hours' or viewing things in a Kidds-centrict, it works for me so it must be good for Disney way, so let me say that I believe Disney needs to have longer hours for holidays and the summer - traditional long hours. Such hours will give guests that all important flexibility of having options that can make Magic, and might might help to make those who weren't predisposed to make the trip or pay for the admission make that choice to go to Disney. In the long run, longer hours would be a better decision for Disney, IMHO. The excuses of the recent past (9-11, tourism, the economy) should be/will be gone soon, and Disney needs to be proactive, and not reactive, on things like hours. That being said............................................

A 7:00 close wasn't all that bad today as the crowds were non-existent. No real lines to speak of today and the MK wasn't very crowded in general. From Disney's point of view, their hours setting formula worked today. That doesn't bode well for Disney, IMHO. It was more crowded last year on Memorial day. Hopefully things like Mission:Space and the other new things coming on line in the near future will give people a reason to come, because the hours Disney is providing won't do it. If something doesn't get guests excited I have a hard time seeing how Disney will increase attendance, Fairytale Package or not.

At least the early close provided the opportunity to have a nice dinner at the Crystal Palace, and allowed for some time to chat with Raidermatt and gcurling after dinner.

 

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
At least the early close provided the opportunity to have a nice dinner at the Crystal Palace, and allowed for some time to chat with Raidermatt and gcurling after dinner.

How come I haven't run into anyone from the Dis while I've been down here. I've been looking for the lime green ribbons people! Well I do have until Sunday I suppose....

On a lighter note... the high speed internet at the Swan is great.

 

[eek40]

I tend to be a lurker on these boards. But this subject just kinda made me want to post, and at risk of being flamed I am going to speak my mind on this also.

There are a lot of people like CWipperman , and d-r that prob are not talking but listening(reading). I agree with Cwipperman and d-r.

Now a little background on me...I am a once to twice a year visitor to WDW. I also cruise on the Disney CL. I have to travel long distances also, someone mentioned having long flights and losing a day and a half to travel. I can plan on pretty much at least one day of full travel to get to the Magic.

Heres my point. Yes it is not fun to have shorter hours at the parks, but I refuse to let these things make me as upset as the orignal poster is about this. I look at vacations as being an adventure, part of the fun is rolling with the punches. At this point I dont think that ThAnswr will have a good trip to wdw this year...it has already been chosen to not enjoy the "hours" and to be angry at Disney. I find this sad, and I am not ignoring the fact that Disney has some problems as of late. I just think that you make your own fun, you make your own happiness. I get frustrated because I think that if you dont like something, dont do it. Not if you dont like it do it and complain about it. I have been to WDW at many different times of the year, last one being April of 2002, and I was amazed at how busy the parks were, I have been going after Thanksgiving before Christmas in the past and loved the fact that it was walk on rides, and a realatively un crowded time of year. Yes I had to plan on early closing hours, which meant less fireworks/parades, and I had to plan on the nites that they were availible. And those nites were very crowded, but that was part of the fun, meeting people that had been stalking out their spot for the fireworks...getting tips, talking to amazed children. Just enjoying the sites.

I guess my whole point is just to enjoy what you have, and find the good in things. Smile, talk to people while elbow to elbow. Have some fun in the process.
Thanks for listening

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

At this point I dont think that ThAnswr will have a good trip to wdw this year...it has already been chosen to not enjoy the "hours" and to be angry at Disney.

I'm just don't think that's fair, in context.

What ThAnswr is angry about right now is having to replan something their family thought they'd taken care of. And it's not because of rain or wind that things are getting cancelled, it's because "we're losing money, so we're shutting down parts of what you thought you'd paid for, already."

I know for a fact that one can make an angry post about Disney's idiotic business decisions and still enjoy their time at WDW: I did just that regularly, for years. We might be well advised to let ThAnswr's clan actually have their vacation, before we make our judgements on their judgements.

I get frustrated because I think that if you dont like something, dont do it.

I agree with you completely, on a personal level. That's why my family, personally, after several years and dozens on trips to WDW, let our APs expire last December.

No, our June 2001 trip hours debacle... the one that sparked some of my angriest posts on the DIS... that incident didn't completely eliminate fun from WDW, for us. We even bought another year's APs, after that happened.

When the time came around again, however, the hours were a factor in our decision to step off.

The thing is, Disney's making these cuts "because we don't have enough guests," but these cuts have had several years history in angering guests... angering guests will run guests off, sooner or later.

The issue is largely that two groups of people are arguing two slightly different points that aren't actually opposites: one group is pointing out how to make the most of Disney during these rough times, one group is pointing out how it is Disney's own decisions that are causing too much of these rough times, in a vicious downward spiral.

People get bad news about their vacation, and post "Did You Hear About!" on the News and Rumors board while they're upset... they don't want to hear how to make the best of it right then, that would sound like "shut up and eat your spinach." Human nature. But underneath all that is a business reality Disney must address, or else.

The fact that one can make the best of things for a week doesn't trump the fact that Disney is still making precisely the same mistakes it has made for years, and they will undoubtedly have the same results.

Thanks for listening

Thanks for posting. Outside of the prejudging someone else's vacation part, I don't disagree with anything you said.

 

[eek40]

First I wanted to say that I wasnt pre judging, but after years and years of working in customer service for a major airline vacation company I have found that the people who are complaining even before they get there end up upset for part of the trip at the least. I hope that orginal poster has a great trip, and he and his family enjoy every second they are in the parks for their shortend hours. And I also hope that they can go with the flow and find the happy things about just being together. I think we tend to forget that all the planning, all the stress is just that....stress. I try and let all that go and just go with whatever happens. I agree that Disney cutting summer hours is crappy. And I do feel for those that wished for longer hours. Hopefully things will change and our ecomony will jump back soon. Its hurting everyone.

 

[sarahj]

Cwipperman,
I agree with you. We were there for 8 days late April/Early May. The parks closed early the whole time we were there, with the exception of World Showcase at Epcot. We didn't let it ruin our time. We made the most of it. We went to parks early, and were usually done way before dinner. A few nights we went back to WS to hear some of the 70's music concerts that were being held there. Other nights we went shopping, played mini golf or just walked around our resort (CBR). This was our first trip there without our kids, and we had a ball! It was very relaxing because we got to sleep at a reasonable time and were ready the next day bright and early. When I first read the hours, I was disappointed, but got over it very quickly.

 

[*123JOANNA123*]

For everyone saying that having shorter hours didn't ruin their vacation, well, that's a no-brainer, right. I mean you've forked out the $$$$$, you're going to make the best of it no matter what- it's the old 'when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade' adage.

Personally, I don't think it's right that we all gotta make lemonade when some of us want that $2.75 Coke or Sprite (the same size one someone else got for the same price last month, not a smaller one).

I am a self employed pharmacist. There are days in the week when I'm quiet, there are times of the year when I'm quiet. If I'm not here myself, it's sometimes prohibitively expensive to employ a replacement. The business cannot legally operate without a qualified person on the premises. If I were running this place Disney-style I would just close up shop on the days I had to employ a replacement. Maybe I would shut up shop early on the quiet days to save $$.

Know why I don't do it? Because my short term gain of the money saved would in no way compensate for the long term loss of customers caused by an erratic opening/closing schedule. Not to mention the prospect of a regular customer turning up during traditional opening hours to collect medication only to see I'm closed. I know Megadrug down the street will be more than happy to take that customer from me. When I undertook to provide a service like this, I realised that I would have to 'suck it up' during the quiet times and take the good with the bad.

When WDTC takes your money for resorts, tickets, whatever, I think they have a basic responsibility to the customer to provide an optimal vacation experience (whether you go in Jan, July December). If they're going to shorten park hours on the basis of it being 'off-season', then really this should be reflected in the price of a park ticket.

Don't be so harsh on the OP. This is just his "chicken finger"- tomorrow could be yours.

 

[HorizonsFan]

When WDTC takes your money for resorts, tickets, whatever, I think they have a basic responsibility to the customer to provide an optimal vacation experience

The problem is, what's "optimal" to you might not be "optimal" for me.
That's always the problem with this debate; it's based on subjective criteria.
We always go at the end of May/first of June and it's been my experience that the park hours will be lengthened if the occupancy rate demands it.

 

[*123JOANNA123*]

I agree that an optimal experience is subjective, but the way I see it, Disney are pre-selling a product to you, then moving the goalposts at the last minute.

If they pre-published hours, then you pay your money (or invest your time and energy planning and reserving a vacation) knowing what the deal is- you accept the shortened hours. However, if disney change the hours weeks before you go, well that's welshing on the deal if you ask me. If your local supermarket or drugstore decided to close early at short notice you'd be annoyed, so why shouldn't people feel the same about WDW.

What about the inherent unfairness of paying the same money for shorter hours? Like I said, it's as if that $2.75 coke is now one third smaller than the same price coke you bought a month earlier. There's nothing subjective about that- price per hour, it costs you more when Disney shorten the hours.

 

[HorizonsFan]

it costs you more when Disney shorten the hours.

Only if you're unable to accomplish what you want to do in the time you have.
It's kind of like an all-you-can-eat buffet. Everyone pays the same price, but not everyone eats the same amount.
If you find yourself at closing time saying, "Gee, if only we would have had more time we would have gotten to do (insert attraction here)!", then I agree with your statement.