Response to ADA Suit

[lelalittlelegs]

I don't know why I'm writing this as no one will read it and it really doesn't touch on the debate but I just wanted to pipe up and say that as the mother of an autistic child who also has cerebral palsy due to a birth related brain injury (and trust me, being autistic is the least serious condition) as well as several other life limiting diseases, my life as the mother of an autistic child is not unfair or hard and it definitely does NOT suck to be me. Like I said, pointless post, but I don't want anyone to think that ALL parents of severely disabled children feel hard done by in life. My DD is awesome and life is what you make it.

 

[2tinkerbell]

I don't know why I'm writing this as no one will read it and it really doesn't touch on the debate but I just wanted to pipe up and say that as the mother of an autistic child who also has cerebral palsy due to a birth related brain injury (and trust me, being autistic is the least serious condition) as well as several other life limiting diseases, my life as the mother of an autistic child is not unfair or hard and it definitely does NOT suck to be me. Like I said, pointless post, but I don't want anyone to think that ALL parents of severely disabled children feel hard done by in life. My DD is awesome and life is what you make it.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Not pointless, and I'm reading it.

 

[Goofy14sure]

So, back to the lawsuit...if we could strip away the overly emotional verbiage and the wild allegations that Disney put the DAS in place to drive away the disabled, is there anyone that believes the suit has any level of merit?

I don't think that it does, the DAS policy is basically the same as other theme parks (Six Flags, Universal). If they were in violation of the ADA, they would have already have been sued.

 

[SMD]

My suggestion would be as follows. When you get your DAS return time instead of it being 10 minutes shorter than the wait time, it's 10 minutes longer, and when you come back, instead of going through the fast pass line, you do get immediate access. You would also only be able to have one return time at a time. The child would still not be able to ride the same ride multiple times in a row, but it would allow them to not have to wait in the line which appears to cause so many problems.

That's just my suggestion and I'm sure it isn't perfect but I would love to hear some other compromises.

I think that that's a nice idea, but not very practical. One of the issues is that so many people use the DAS that immediate access will end up being immediate access to a DAS return line separate from the FP line. CMs are then sorting people onto the ride from 3 queues, DAS, FP and standby. I just don't see that working out well for anyone.

At DL, many rides don't have FP and the queues are not accessible. Often there are so many DAS guests returning that guests in wheelchairs are given return times. Now, I don't think that's inherently unfair, because a DAS user has already waited, and a wheelchair user, while they have no choice to do standby, is being given an open ended return time. It just illustrates that it's use, not abuse that is the main issue.

 

[WheeledTraveler]

At DL, many rides don't have FP and the queues are not accessible. Often there are so many DAS guests returning that guests in wheelchairs are given return times. Now, I don't think that's inherently unfair, because a DAS user has already waited, and a wheelchair user, while they have no choice to do standby, is being given an open ended return time. It just illustrates that it's use, not abuse that is the main issue.

As far as I know, wheelchair return cards (at both US parks) do have an end time. They have to be used within the hour after the return time. One person can have multiple wheelchair return cards at one time. I'm fairly certain that someone posted back post-DAS implementation that at DL some of the wheelchair return cards were not for the same wait as the standby line because one of the uses is to try to avoid having 5 people who need a wheelchair accessible vehicle all returning at the same time. So while occasionally times on the wheelchair return cards might be a little shorter than the wait for the standby line, the wait could just as easily could be for the same length or even longer.

 

[SMD]

As far as I know, wheelchair return cards (at both US parks) do have an end time. They have to be used within the hour after the return time. One person can have multiple wheelchair return cards at one time. I'm fairly certain that someone posted back post-DAS implementation that at DL some of the wheelchair return cards were not for the same wait as the standby line because one of the uses is to try to avoid having 5 people who need a wheelchair accessible vehicle all returning at the same time. So while occasionally times on the wheelchair return cards might be a little shorter than the wait for the standby line, the wait could just as easily could be for the same length or even longer.

The wheelchair return times are completely independent of the standby time at DL. Here was my experience last year:

POTC, standby time was about 20 minutes, WC return was for 2 hours later, waited 10+ minutes after returning.

HMH, standby time was about 45 minutes, WC return time was for 20 minutes, sent straight to the elevator after returning, but would have had to wait awhile to load a buggy, ride broke down, took a ReAd and left.

Jingle Cruise (yes, there was an overlay is year), standby time was about an hour, WC return time was for 5 minutes, waited 40+ minutes after returning, we were not waiting for the accessible boat.

 

[wilkeliza]

I believe Disneyland and WDW are different when it comes to wheelchairs.

Much more of WDW is accessible so they often will go through the standard line and then wait for the wheelchair car to come around.

When the line isn't wheelchair accessible they are given a return time similar to the posted wait time and taken through either the exit or fast pass line.

 

[SueM in MN]

I agree with aaarcher86. I would really like to keep this thread going and not get it shut down.

Obviously this issue brings out a lot of passion in a lot of people.

I will say this. It seems that every time this issue is raised those of us siding with Disney are thought to be uncaring, cold hearted, and a variety of other things. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish that we could have a rational conversation with valid reasons being brought forth on both sides of the argument.

One thing I haven't seen is this and I'm hoping Kathy, or someone else in her position, can answer. What would you like to see done? What kind of compromise could be reached so both sides would be happy. I think we all know the days of the GAC are over so what's next? I think that's what is going to hurt this lawsuit is it doesn't appear to ask for anything besides bemoaning the loss of the GAC. Like a previous poster stated, due to the varying degrees ASD and other disabilities, and with growing online forums, it's hard for Disney to give one ASD child something without all the other parents wanting it.

My suggestion would be as follows. When you get your DAS return time instead of it being 10 minutes shorter than the wait time, it's 10 minutes longer, and when you come back, instead of going through the fast pass line, you do get immediate access. You would also only be able to have one return time at a time. The child would still not be able to ride the same ride multiple times in a row, but it would allow them to not have to wait in the line which appears to cause so many problems.

That's just my suggestion and I'm sure it isn't perfect but I would love to hear some other compromises.

That is a good suggestion, but it would be very difficult to implement.
First of all, I don't think most people would be very happy to get a DAS Return Time for 10 minutes more than the current wait. So, it would be difficult foot the front line CMs.

And, the biggest problem would be that very few attractions have a way to bring someone to the front.

During our last 2 trips, we used Fastpass Plus and DAS, along with going on attractions in the area with short waits.
Our experience during Spring break this year was that the Fastpass + lines looked very long, but move quickly and we usually were consistently in the line for less than 10 minutes. Sometimes there were people standing (even blocking) the line while they waited for their time to come and others had problems scanning their Magicbands or scanned and were too early (or had the correct time, but the wrong attraction). Once you get past that point, the lines moved along.

Someone had posted a video of a Fastpass + line to show the long, snaking line and what they thought was 2 guests in ECVs cutting into the line.
But, when you actually listened to the audio, it was clear most of the people were not actually ready to go in. You could hear the CM telling people to move up to enter and people not moving.

I don't know why I'm writing this as no one will read it and it really doesn't touch on the debate but I just wanted to pipe up and say that as the mother of an autistic child who also has cerebral palsy due to a birth related brain injury (and trust me, being autistic is the least serious condition) as well as several other life limiting diseases, my life as the mother of an autistic child is not unfair or hard and it definitely does NOT suck to be me. Like I said, pointless post, but I don't want anyone to think that ALL parents of severely disabled children feel hard done by in life. My DD is awesome and life is what you make it.

My youngest DD has cerebral palsy and a number of other disabling conditions.
I get where you are coming from - her life is our reality and I love her the way she is because there are no other options.
If life gave us some lemons, I'm going to make the best lemonade I can possibly make.
I truly believe in all the quotes in my signature.

As far as I know, wheelchair return cards (at both US parks) do have an end time. They have to be used within the hour after the return time. One person can have multiple wheelchair return cards at one time. I'm fairly certain that someone posted back post-DAS implementation that at DL some of the wheelchair return cards were not for the same wait as the standby line because one of the uses is to try to avoid having 5 people who need a wheelchair accessible vehicle all returning at the same time. So while occasionally times on the wheelchair return cards might be a little shorter than the wait for the standby line, the wait could just as easily could be for the same length or even longer.

Yes - especially at DL where there are less attractions that are totally accessible.

 

[SueM in MN]

I believe Disneyland and WDW are different when it comes to wheelchairs.

Much more of WDW is accessible so they often will go through the standard line and then wait for the wheelchair car to come around.

When the line isn't wheelchair accessible they are given a return time similar to the posted wait time and taken through either the exit or fast pass line.

That is correct.
Most of the lens at WDW are actually accessible thru the standard line.
Sometimes, there is a different place to load - for example, at Buzz a Lightyear at MK, the Fastpass + and regular line is wheelchair accessible. When guests reach CM asking how many are in your party at the boarding area, guests without mobility devices make a turn to the right and load within a few feet.
Guests with mobility devices are sent straight at that point into a hallway that leads to the unload area.

The only attractions at WDW that have return times for guests using wheelchairs are the ones that are not accessible. So, attractions like Small World which has a separate accessible entrance.

 

[lanejudy]

I don't know why I'm writing this as no one will read it and it really doesn't touch on the debate but I just wanted to pipe up and say that as the mother of an autistic child who also has cerebral palsy due to a birth related brain injury (and trust me, being autistic is the least serious condition) as well as several other life limiting diseases, my life as the mother of an autistic child is not unfair or hard and it definitely does NOT suck to be me. Like I said, pointless post, but I don't want anyone to think that ALL parents of severely disabled children feel hard done by in life. My DD is awesome and life is what you make it.

I so agree! I couldn't imagine DD any other way than "her." Life is what you make of it, and it's perfect for me!

 

[MickeyWheels]

Not pointless at all! I agree! With life threatening health issues, my childs "behavioral" issues are the least of the concern in lines. Go enjoy the park! People who think they need front of line often are feeling that way because they fear how their child will react rather than how their child is acting. The anxiety is exhausting! I get it. And in spite of the challenges... my kid is absolutely amazing

 

[MickeyWheels]

By the way, since some have misinterpreted, I am not pitting one disability against another, I am saying we all have to work with the system we have and find ways to make it work and help Disney see how it can be improved. Its a team

 

[blondietink]

I don't know why I'm writing this as no one will read it and it really doesn't touch on the debate but I just wanted to pipe up and say that as the mother of an autistic child who also has cerebral palsy due to a birth related brain injury (and trust me, being autistic is the least serious condition) as well as several other life limiting diseases, my life as the mother of an autistic child is not unfair or hard and it definitely does NOT suck to be me. Like I said, pointless post, but I don't want anyone to think that ALL parents of severely disabled children feel hard done by in life. My DD is awesome and life is what you make it.

Yea that! I hate being called a "special" parent. UGH! I love both my sons just the way they are. Sure, there are frustrating days, but I imagine any parent of any child could say that.

 

[MickeyWheels]

Agreed, Sue. I quoted this offensive term from another board, not this one. No one here has used these words. Term used for illustrative purposes only.

Thanks,

Kathy

We use the term "special snowflake" in reference to a child with severe Osteogenesis imprefecta who needs prayers due to medical issues going on actively. My child is a special snowflake. So I think it depends on the context of the term. It can be endearing or derogatory depending on the context

 

[SueM in MN]

We use the term "special snowflake" in reference to a child with severe Osteogenesis imprefecta who needs prayers due to medical issues going on actively. My child is a special snowflake. So I think it depends on the context of the term. It can be endearing or derogatory depending on the context

I can see how it can be endearing - snowflakes are pretty unique and special.
But, you might not be aware, when spelled 'speshul snowflake' it is generally meant as derogatory.

 

[SueM in MN]

I think many people can agree that the wording of the lawsuit itself is causing a lot of the ill will.
My comments are in blue and the quotes from the lawsuit in italics. From page 16 of the lawsuit:

COMPLAINT
The DAS card itself reveals Disney's motivations:
1) Disney replaced its generically-titled "Guest Assistance Card" with the stigma emphasizing title of "Disability Access Service" card. There can be no plausible good faith reason for deliberately re-naming the card in this manner.
I can think of many plausible reasons - one of them is that guests without disabilities WERE actually using that title to rationalize that it was for guests who wanted assistance, not for guests with disabilities. Specifically, I have seen blogs where people with healthy pregnancies or several healthy children used the name of the card to rationalize that it was not for guests with disabilities, but for any guest.
2) Disney now insists upon taking a photograph of the disabled guest at the commencement of each two-week period the guest visits the Disney Parks. Non-disabled persons are not required to submit to the taking of their photograph. There can be no plausible good faith reason for adding this pre-condition to disabled persons' entry to the Disney Parks.
The good reason for this was so that the CMs can actually identify who the card belongs to and make sure that person is actually the one using it.

From pages 24 and 25 of the lawsuit:
The "rented invalid" problem never existed to any extent which necessitated a massive overhaul of Disney's policies for accommodating disabled persons. Rather, Disney influenced the release and/ or spread of such articles, for the specific purpose of creating cover for its planned rollout of the DAS program. Disney wanted the public to view
the "rented invalid" problem as an epidemic of fraud, with Disney as its victim.
The lawsuit doesn't propose any reasons for the "planned rollout of the DAS program" that I could see other than that the lawsuit alleges that Disney wants to get rid of people with autism from their parks.
45. One facet of the DAS is that guests with mobility challenges are removed entirely from the DAS system. Disney now refuses to even acknowledge that persons in wheelchairs are disabled. Guests with wheelchairs are now told that the queues are fully accessible for them so they may wait in lines with the non-disabled persons.
It apparently is not apparent to the people in the lawsuit that the ADA requires accessible queues, and that is all that is needed or wanted by many guests using wheelchairs whose primary need is met by accessible lines.
Even if the so* called "rented invalid" problem ever really existed, once Disney removed mobility-challenged guests from the DAS, the problem was solved. The systemic abuse about which Disney became suddenly frantic in 2013 could never be carried out by or with persons with developmental disorders or cognitive impairments. If there was a problem with non-disabled guests "renting" persons in wheelchairs for a day, the problem could not occur with persons like Plaintiffs.
This is why a lot of the discussions about the lawsuit have gone to pitting one disability against another - the lawsuit is doing just that (and threw everyone else under the bus.
Not to mention that two of the parties in the lawsuit are complaining that they were not able to access attractions with the short waits they were accustomed to with GAC or loop on popular attractions......on a Christmas trip, starting Christmas Day.
And, quite a few mention their child can't wait, needs to go on attractions without waiting and had to loop popular attractions that normally have long waits.
It doesn't matter if most people with disabilities are reasonable in their expectations, in how they used GACs and in what they do now.

THESE are the things people have heard about and read about in the internet - just google 'disabilities' or 'autism' 'GAC' 'Disney' and read what some people put out there about how they used GAC as a 'golden ticket'. It doesn't matter that most of us didn't do that; people assume everyone did because that is what they have read.

THESE are the things that cause people without disabilities to make the comments they do after blog posts or articles about the lawsuit or about the DAS.

THESE are the things that are causing the pitting of one disability against the other in the discussions. We need to realize that we are all in this together and people with disabilities fighting about whose disability is worst doesn't solve anything and hurts everyone in the long run.

 

[cassiejo2711]

I don't know why I'm writing this as no one will read it and it really doesn't touch on the debate but I just wanted to pipe up and say that as the mother of an autistic child who also has cerebral palsy due to a birth related brain injury (and trust me, being autistic is the least serious condition) as well as several other life limiting diseases, my life as the mother of an autistic child is not unfair or hard and it definitely does NOT suck to be me. Like I said, pointless post, but I don't want anyone to think that ALL parents of severely disabled children feel hard done by in life. My DD is awesome and life is what you make it.

Yes. This. I read and nodded and got tears in my eyes. We all have struggles and they are all different, but that doesn't mean my life has to be any less happy as a result. I have a great life, and I know I take a lot less for granted now.

 

[MickeyWheels]

I think many people can agree that the wording of the lawsuit itself is causing a lot of the ill will.
My comments are in blue and the quotes from the lawsuit in italics. From page 16 of the lawsuit:

COMPLAINT
The DAS card itself reveals Disney's motivations:
1) Disney replaced its generically-titled "Guest Assistance Card" with the stigma emphasizing title of "Disability Access Service" card. There can be no plausible good faith reason for deliberately re-naming the card in this manner.
I can think of many plausible reasons - one of them is that guests without disabilities WERE actually using that title to rationalize that it was for guests who wanted assistance, not for guests with disabilities. Specifically, I have seen blogs where people with healthy pregnancies or several healthy children used the name of the card to rationalize that it was not for guests with disabilities, but for any guest.
2) Disney now insists upon taking a photograph of the disabled guest at the commencement of each two-week period the guest visits the Disney Parks. Non-disabled persons are not required to submit to the taking of their photograph. There can be no plausible good faith reason for adding this pre-condition to disabled persons' entry to the Disney Parks.
The good reason for this was so that the CMs can actually identify who the card belongs to and make sure that person is actually the one using it.

From pages 24 and 25 of the lawsuit:
The "rented invalid" problem never existed to any extent which necessitated a massive overhaul of Disney's policies for accommodating disabled persons. Rather, Disney influenced the release and/ or spread of such articles, for the specific purpose of creating cover for its planned rollout of the DAS program. Disney wanted the public to view
the "rented invalid" problem as an epidemic of fraud, with Disney as its victim.
The lawsuit doesn't propose any reasons for the "planned rollout of the DAS program" that I could see other than that the lawsuit alleges that Disney wants to get rid of people with autism from their parks.
45. One facet of the DAS is that guests with mobility challenges are removed entirely from the DAS system. Disney now refuses to even acknowledge that persons in wheelchairs are disabled. Guests with wheelchairs are now told that the queues are fully accessible for them so they may wait in lines with the non-disabled persons.
It apparently is not apparent to the people in the lawsuit that the ADA requires accessible queues, and that is all that is needed or wanted by many guests using wheelchairs whose primary need is met by accessible lines.
Even if the so* called "rented invalid" problem ever really existed, once Disney removed mobility-challenged guests from the DAS, the problem was solved. The systemic abuse about which Disney became suddenly frantic in 2013 could never be carried out by or with persons with developmental disorders or cognitive impairments. If there was a problem with non-disabled guests "renting" persons in wheelchairs for a day, the problem could not occur with persons like Plaintiffs.
This is why a lot of the discussions about the lawsuit have gone to pitting one disability against another - the lawsuit is doing just that (and threw everyone else under the bus.
Not to mention that two of the parties in the lawsuit are complaining that they were not able to access attractions with the short waits they were accustomed to with GAC or loop on popular attractions......on a Christmas trip, starting Christmas Day.
And, quite a few mention their child can't wait, needs to go on attractions without waiting and had to loop popular attractions that normally have long waits.
It doesn't matter if most people with disabilities are reasonable in their expectations, in how they used GACs and in what they do now.

THESE are the things people have heard about and read about in the internet - just google 'disabilities' or 'autism' 'GAC' 'Disney' and read what some people put out there about how they used GAC as a 'golden ticket'. It doesn't matter that most of us didn't do that; people assume everyone did because that is what they have read.

THESE are the things that cause people without disabilities to make the comments they do after blog posts or articles about the lawsuit or about the DAS.

THESE are the things that are causing the pitting of one disability against the other in the discussions. We need to realize that we are all in this together and people with disabilities fighting about whose disability is worst doesn't solve anything and hurts everyone in the long run.

_____________

Regarding the picture..... you can have them take a photo of a photo (they just need to physically see the person getting the card before doing so) OR you can opt to NOT get the DAS if a photo is too invasive.

 

[SueM in MN]

_____________

Regarding the picture..... you can have them take a photo of a photo (they just need to physically see the person getting the card before doing so) OR you can opt to NOT get the DAS if a photo is too invasive.

True.
And you can also chose to take a picture of a parent or guardian.

At first, they needed a new picture each time a renewal card was issued, but now if you bring back your previous DAS,they are able to read a code on it to access your file with the previous picture.