Response to ADA Suit

[lanejudy]

... If my daughter could have the same experience on any single day as a non-disabled guest then I would be ecstatic. Honestly I am ecstatic every day that she gets to have experiences at all. My daughter will never have a single day in her life that is "equal" to a non-disabled guest, and honestly will never have a day that is "equal" to most disabled guests. It really stings that so many people think a card with return times would provide that. If only it were that simple.

I'm so very sorry your daughter has such challenges. I'm sure life in general is very different and very challenging for both her individually and your family as whole. As a mom, I understand your desire for your child to have just one "normal" day

Unfortunately, there is no way to provide an "equal experience" regardless of disability or not. Any 2 people might have very different experiences at any given attraction -- my husband loves the tea cups and roller coasters, both types of rides make me sick to my stomach. There's no way to equalize that experience. Similarly, ADA legislation recognizes and specifically states that even when establishments make reasonable accommodations for equal access, that the experience may not be equivalent.

I do agree, though, that if someone has a DAS return-time and arrives to find the ride closed, there should be a FP or something offered so the party can continue their day and get another return time for another ride just as they would if the ride had been available. Especially if such was offered to those standing in line at the time it broke down. The DAS is the equivalent to standing in line, and as such, I think I would have complained at Guest Relations if I was denied whatever was offered to standby guests in line at the same time.

 

[aaarcher86]

I realize I run the risk of being offensive here and getting into trouble, but there is a vast difference between needing to be hooked up to a ventilator and the need for flexibility for autism. The reasons to be acutely attached to a ventilator are immediately life threatening if ignored. The desires of a child with autism or not. The needs of a child touring the park who requires an ICU level of medical care on a daily basis are NOT the same as the needs of every other tourist with a disability. And to say that they are is actually pretty hurtful.

My intention wasn't to quantify your daughters disability or compare it to autism. I simply used autism as an example, because it's what I'm familiar with. My point was that if they add the ability to do something to the DAS system that anyone with an issue, regardless of disability, would be able to utilize it. There's no way for Disney to say 'people with medical equipment issues can do this but someone else using the DAS can't.' And because of THAT I think it wouldn't too difficult to implement into the DAS itself. I'm sure you can see that getting abused. I can already see someone waiting for 45 minutes and going to change to ride that has a 20 minute wait an demanding they be allowed 2 rides or something to makeup the time difference.

If my daughter could have the same experience on any single day as a non-disabled guest then I would be ecstatic. Honestly I am ecstatic every day that she gets to have experiences at all. My daughter will never have a single day in her life that is "equal" to a non-disabled guest, and honestly will never have a day that is "equal" to most disabled guests. It really stings that so many people think a card with return times would provide that. If only it were that simple.

I don't want to sound unintentionally crass, but everyone one of us would like our children to be 'normal.' No one wishes challenges and disabilities on their children. We all feel that way. But I personally abhor when people use this in a discussion like this because there's no place for it. Our situations aren't changing. We are discussing accommodations. Using this reasons feels like an emotional strike to make people feel bad for disagreeing with you (general you). Im sure that wasn't your intention, but it's definitely the way this type of reasoning is used regularly.

I don't think anyone thinks a card with return times is going to give your child a normal life or the ability to enjoy the parks as like a non disabled guest entirely. But that the intent of the ADA - equal access. Not equal enjoyment.

 

[Wendydagny]

I'm so very sorry your daughter has such challenges. I'm sure life in general is very different and very challenging for both her individually and your family as whole. As a mom, I understand your desire for your child to have just one "normal" day

Unfortunately, there is no way to provide an "equal experience" regardless of disability or not. Any 2 people might have very different experiences at any given attraction -- my husband loves the tea cups and roller coasters, both types of rides make me sick to my stomach. There's no way to equalize that experience. Similarly, ADA legislation recognizes and specifically states that even when establishments make reasonable accommodations for equal access, that the experience may not be equivalent.

I do agree, though, that if someone has a DAS return-time and arrives to find the ride closed, there should be a FP or something offered so the party can continue their day and get another return time for another ride just as they would if the ride had been available. Especially if such was offered to those standing in line at the time it broke down. The DAS is the equivalent to standing in line, and as such, I think I would have complained at Guest Relations if I was denied whatever was offered to standby guests in line at the same time.

Right, I agree that there is no way for things to be equal. I am not expecting Disney to provide equality. I am happy that they give her the experiences she does have with them.

I just get very bothered by the constant line here that the DAS is giving my daughter an equivalent experience, when it simply does not (or in many specific instances does not even provide equal access, but I will not start listing stuff as it serves no purpose). It stings every time I read it, and I could not read it another time without saying something.

 

[aaarcher86]

Right, I agree that there is no way for things to be equal. I am not expecting Disney to provide equality. I am happy that they give her the experiences she does have with them. I just get very bothered by the constant line here that the DAS is giving my daughter an equivalent experience, when it simply does not (or in many specific instances does not even provide equal access, but I will not start listing stuff as it serves no purpose). It stings every time I read it, and I could not read it another time without saying something.

My use of the word experience may not have been the best, but I'm also not really used to it being taken so literally. I was referring to the ability to access rides, shows, etc. the park 'experience' as a whole. Not necessarily the enjoyment experience, etc. Just overall, if a non disabled guest does roughly 3 rides in 2 hours a disabled guest should have the ability to do that as well.

ETA: I apologize if it seemed offensive. I understand the sensitivity of topics like this, especially when it involves our loved ones.

 

[Coonhound]

I realize I run the risk of being offensive here and getting into trouble, but there is a vast difference between needing to be hooked up to a ventilator and the need for flexibility for autism. The reasons to be acutely attached to a ventilator are immediately life threatening if ignored. The desires of a child with autism or not. The needs of a child touring the park who requires an ICU level of medical care on a daily basis are NOT the same as the needs of every other tourist with a disability. And to say that they are is actually pretty hurtful.

That doesn't mean we can't make it work or that we are not happy with the assistance that Disney provides to us, or that we will stop bringing our daughter back. I know that the current policy is to work individually with each guest's needs, but in reality the only option offered is return times with the DAS. I have never complained to Disney and have no intentions to do so, as I feel like they do more than most places where we can't even go at all. I do not demand more, but it would be nice if someone could recognize that there really are different needs for different guests and the DAS, while helpful, does not even the playing field for all cases.



If my daughter could have the same experience on any single day as a non-disabled guest then I would be ecstatic. Honestly I am ecstatic every day that she gets to have experiences at all. My daughter will never have a single day in her life that is "equal" to a non-disabled guest, and honestly will never have a day that is "equal" to most disabled guests. It really stings that so many people think a card with return times would provide that. If only it were that simple.

I agree with some other posters that when people begin to talk about how hard their lives are and how no accommodation by Disney can truly make their experience equal.... Your experience at Disney won't be equal because it can't be equal....and that is the cause of the disability itself, there is nothing Disney can do to make your park experience equal to that of a non-disabled guest.
When we start getting into the emotional "our lives are so hard, giving us the DAS won't make us have an equal experience", it makes the discussion about something it doesn't need to be about.
No one expects that the experience will be equal....what we are talking about is that your access to rides is equal. Even with the DAS you are not going to experience the parks in a way equal to "regular" guests, but that is the nature of the disability and the DAS is not meant to make up for hardships caused by disability, the DAS is only meant to allow you to access rides

 

[Wendydagny]

I am in no way trying to make people feel bad. I am glad though that you are still at the phase when you are hoping for normal. There is a point that you reach as a parent when you are no longer hoping for normal, and I pray that you don't ever get there. I am not saying that to evoke sympathy, just to make you maybe see that sometimes the words and attitudes here can be hurtful when you are reading from that perspective. Maybe I just come from a place that makes my feelings easily hurt, as well. I'll give you that.

I am not arguing about equivalent enjoyment. If so my kid has all your kiddos beat!

I am saying that flat out with some disabilities, having DAS return times does not make attraction/hr ratio equal to typical guests or even others with disabilities. Especially when you are dealing with severe medical issues that are unpredictable. It would be nice if there really were some individualization of accommodations as Disney claims to have. I don't think they have to. But I think it's fair to say that it would be nice. Saying it would be nice doesn't mean you should sue or demand things from guest relations. In the real world, if you see someone with a wheelchair full of medical equipment you usually let them get on the elevator first and maybe offer assistance. I think that's ok. I think it's ok to not launch into an argument with them about how they need to wait their fair turn. I'm not sure why when Disney enters the equation, everyone forgets the way they would act in the real world.

 

[aaarcher86]

I am in no way trying to make people feel bad. I am glad though that you are still at the phase when you are hoping for normal. There is a point that you reach as a parent when you are no longer hoping for normal, and I pray that you don't ever get there. I am not saying that to evoke sympathy, just to make you maybe see that sometimes the words and attitudes here can be hurtful when you are reading from that perspective. Maybe I just come from a place that makes my feelings easily hurt, as well. I'll give you that. I am not arguing about equivalent enjoyment. If so my kid has all your kiddos beat! I am saying that flat out with some disabilities, having DAS return times does not make attraction/hr ratio equal to typical guests or even others with disabilities. Especially when you are dealing with severe medical issues that are unpredictable. It would be nice if there really were some individualization of accommodations as Disney claims to have. I don't think they have to. But I think it's fair to say that it would be nice. Saying it would be nice doesn't mean you should sue or demand things from guest relations. In the real world, if you see someone with a wheelchair full of medical equipment you usually let them get on the elevator first and maybe offer assistance. I think that's ok. I think it's ok to not launch into an argument with them about how they need to wait their fair turn. I'm not sure why when Disney enters the equation, everyone forgets the way they would act in the real world.

I can agree with that. And I think for the most part, in medical emergencies the CMs do try to offer some kind of assistance most of the time. The situation you described ( I think it was you, with the line closure) I think everyone can agree should have gotten you a FP. I don't necessarily think the whole system itself should be incorporated into that as I think flexibility wise, it mostly is, given that you can return any time after the wait.

I don't necessarily think the elevator scenario is a great analogy. I think most people on these forums would be happy to let someone ahead of them that was struggling with a disability, the problem is that it's not just one person. For the elevator, I'd do,exactly as you described. Would I do it 10x before finally getting in the elevator myself?

I also think on the flip side there is something about Disney that makes people think the world works differently there. The same person you described in the elevator might wait their turn in line at the grocery but expect not to at Disney for some reason.

 

[lanejudy]

My use of the word experience may not have been the best, but I'm also not really used to it being taken so literally. ... I understand the sensitivity of topics like this, especially when it involves our loved ones.

... sometimes the words and attitudes here can be hurtful when you are reading from that perspective. Maybe I just come from a place that makes my feelings easily hurt, as well. ...

I don't believe any disrespect was intended. This is a good reminder for all of us to try and choose our words carefully when posting about such sensitive topics as disabilities, and also to keep in mind that another poster may not have intended how one firsts interpret something. We come from various cultures and countries and regions within a country; various words may have different meanings or even multiple meanings that could be miscontrued in writing/reading versus live conversation.

Let's continue discussion of the actual lawsuit and response...

Yes - keep it nice and listen & respond respectfully.

 

[asta]

I hope this is within the terms of this discussion but a concern was expressed about happens when you return with your DAS pass and a ride has temporarily shut down. When this happened with a normal FP I thought when the ride reopened the CMs would honor that FP no matter what the return time. I would think that the DAS pass would be the same. I'm probably missing something but that seems like a simple solution.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

If the plaintiffs are paying this lawyer, then they are being ripped off. What the lawyer filed reads like it was written by a middle-schooler who googled law terms. It rambles on with no point. The a Disney lawyers are going to annihilate their lawyer. All these parents have done is cause people to roll their eyes and think "there is another entitled parent who thinks the world revolves around their autistic child." It gives all of the great parents who do truly advocate for their children a bad name. They should be ashamed of themselves. They should also be very afraid for their kids after they (the parents) are gone, because the world isn't going to cater to them like their parents do.

The biggest issue for me is this - why do people hold Disney to such high (almost impossible) standards, but they don't hold other places to the same standards? Our local zoos, parks, movie theaters, etc don't do nearly as much as Disney, but I don't see people suing them so that their kid doesn't have to wait in line.

 

[lanejudy]

I hope this is within the terms of this discussion but a concern was expressed about happens when you return with your DAS pass and a ride has temporarily shut down. When this happened with a normal FP I thought when the ride reopened the CMs would honor that FP no matter what the return time. I would think that the DAS pass would be the same. I'm probably missing something but that seems like a simple solution.

You are correct in how a FP was handled in the past if the ride closed temporarily. This probably remains true in DL/DCA as well.

However, now with FP+ at WDW, I believe if a ride has a closure, those impacted are sent a message through MDE to reschedule (possibly giving an extra "free" FP+ though reports of that are not consistent).

Agree that the DAS should be handled similarly, but now with no paper FP and the restriction to one DAS return time, it would need to be a paper FP of sorts.

 

[Mrsjvb]

if Disney tried to please everyone, they'd end up pleasing no one.

these is no way they can be reasonably expected to cater to every single individual's needs.


sure DAS does not work for everyone. for some people it is better than nothing. for others it's working perfectly fine, and for others it will mean that Disney can no longer be an enjoyable place where you can accomplish anything


Perception is everything. Guest A gets to loop because not allowing it woudl cause screaming meltdowns that will be danger to Guest A and everyone around him.

Guest B see's that Guest A gets to stay in the ride vehicle and gets angry as HE has to get out of his and is not allowed to stay too. CM will not and cannot breach Guest A's privacy by blabbing that they have a special GAS that lets them loop. . all Guest B sees is a PERCEIVED Unfairness in way Guest A is being treated.

 

[2tinkerbell]

I hope this is within the terms of this discussion but a concern was expressed about happens when you return with your DAS pass and a ride has temporarily shut down. When this happened with a normal FP I thought when the ride reopened the CMs would honor that FP no matter what the return time. I would think that the DAS pass would be the same. I'm probably missing something but that seems like a simple solution.

I think the problem comes in that with a DAS return time, you can't get another time until you either get the down attraction time crossed off or you ride the attraction.

For example, say you have a wait time of 40 minutes to ride IASW and can ride it beginning 10:20am. You get there at say 10:30am and discover the ride has gone down. You waited the 40 minutes for IASW. You currently have to get that return time crossed off your DAS card and decide what attraction you want to go on and get a return time for that attraction. Still using the same example, you get a return time for Peter Pan for 50 minutes later. You can't ride Peter Pan until 11:10am. That means you have been waiting to ride an attraction since 9:40am which is 1.5 hours of waiting. Say those individuals who were in line at 10:10am when IASW went down and they were given a FP to another attraction, they cut at least an hour off of the time it took them to ride an alternative attraction. Hope that makes sense - it is drop dead week at work with the end of the FY on Friday so my brain isn't functioning too well.

I agree that the DAS card holder and their party should also receive a FP like everyone else.

 

[OurBigTrip]

If the plaintiffs are paying this lawyer, then they are being ripped off. What the lawyer filed reads like it was written by a middle-schooler who googled law terms. It rambles on with no point.

I agree 100%. The plaintiffs' filing is very unprofessional and overly emotional, IMO.

 

[SMD]

if Disney tried to please everyone, they'd end up pleasing no one.

these is no way they can be reasonably expected to cater to every single individual's needs.


sure DAS does not work for everyone. for some people it is better than nothing. for others it's working perfectly fine, and for others it will mean that Disney can no longer be an enjoyable place where you can accomplish anything


Perception is everything. Guest A gets to loop because not allowing it woudl cause screaming meltdowns that will be danger to Guest A and everyone around him.

Guest B see's that Guest A gets to stay in the ride vehicle and gets angry as HE has to get out of his and is not allowed to stay too. CM will not and cannot breach Guest A's privacy by blabbing that they have a special GAS that lets them loop. . all Guest B sees is a PERCEIVED Unfairness in way Guest A is being treated.

I think the idea that DAS is a "one size fits all" accommodation is one of the issues they're litigating. Though it is kind of lost in all of the hyperbole. Of course, other accommodations are offered based on need, the ability to avoid stairs, or seating options for guests with visual impairments. It just seems like in this case, all the plaintiffs are claiming a very similar issue.

Also, I don't think that immediate and repeat access to rides is a perceived unfairness at all. If the standby line is 40 minutes, how many times should a single party be allowed to ride while standby guests wait those 40 minutes. 10 times? The standby line wouldn't remain at 40 minutes, if that were the case.

 

[wilkeliza]

When I was trained on DAS we were told that we could issue a new time if the return time from the previous attractiom had lapsed. It didnt have to be crossed out or used.

Also if you are in the standby line and an attraction goes down they don't often give fastpasses. Only those in the boarding area or fastpass+ line are given return passes. I only know this because I waited 50 minutes in the TSMM queue just for it to close. We asked about fastpasses since we had already waited so long. We were specifically told only those who had made it past the merge or who had fastpasses that were marked as used but were not would recieve a return pass.

 

[aaarcher86]

I think the idea that DAS is a "one size fits all" accommodation is one of the issues they're litigating. Though it is kind of lost in all of the hyperbole. Of course, other accommodations are offered based on need, the ability to avoid stairs, or seating options for guests with visual impairments. It just seems like in this case, all the plaintiffs are claiming a very similar issue. Also, I don't think that immediate and repeat access to rides is a perceived unfairness at all. If the standby line is 40 minutes, how many times should a single party be allowed to ride while standby guests wait those 40 minutes. 10 times? The standby line wouldn't remain at 40 minutes, if that were the case.

I do think that's something the plaintiffs are saying, but I also think that the things they want accommodated that aren't met with the 'one size fits all' are not things Disney needs to accommodate.

I think a lot of the parents are using the 'one size does not fit all' perspective because that's the idea behind educational accommodations. As far as businesses and what they have to do, they're essentially taking care of every issue in regards to accommodation except for the physical wait time.

IMO, it's as unrealistic to expect to go to Disney and not have a wait as it is to go to a farm and not experience dust. They just go hand and hand.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I think a lot of the parents are using the 'one size does not fit all' perspective because that's the idea behind educational accommodations. As far as businesses and what they have to do, they're essentially taking care of every issue in regards to accommodation except for the physical wait time.

Exactly. Going to Disney is an OPTIONAL vacation. It's not like providing an education, which is mandatory, and teaches skills required for life. Disney isn't keeping a disabled person from being able to function in life to their fullest potential.

To expect Disney to provide a personalized experience for each person with a disability is not feasible. This isn't programming a name in to a database so Mickey knows your name. This is hundreds of thousands of people a year who each have specific needs that have to be explained to another human.

 

[SteveMouse]

Exactly. Going to Disney is an OPTIONAL vacation. It's not like providing an education, which is mandatory, and teaches skills required for life. Disney isn't keeping a disabled person from being able to function in life to their fullest potential. To expect Disney to provide a personalized experience for each person with a disability is not feasible. This isn't programming a name in to a database so Mickey knows your name. This is hundreds of thousands of people a year who each have specific needs that have to be explained to another human.

On a more fundamental note, education access has legislation other than the ADA which applies to program services (and to some extent physical components).

 

[KathyRN137]

Yes, a special-needs family trip to Disney is certainly optional, just as any vacation is to any family. Reasonable accommodations are provided to ensure that special-needs families continue to have this option available to them -- just like any other family. It is a valid quality of life issue.

It appears that all the fighting, arguing and disagreement centers on that one very subjective word: reasonable. What seems reasonable to one person may, very naturally, appear to be unreasonable to another based upon their culture, value systems and individual life experiences.

It's unfortunate that the complaint was written the way it was; the language has been extremely divisive. It has only served to validate that ableism and egocentrism are alive and well in our society.


Kathy