Reports are in: Bellman are pressuring guest for tips...

[bicker]

The origin of the "tip" may have been originated 500 or 1000 years ago, but now, in current times the average person thinks they are rewarding excellent service.

People have been known to make up fictions for themselves to deceive themselves into thinking that things are different from how they actually are. However, if you ask most Americans the hard questions ("Do you know that bell staff, valets, waiters and waitresses actually get paid less than minimum wage, and that you, as patron, are expected to tip them so they can make a living wage?") they'll grudgingly admit that they do know this. They wish they weren't obligated to provide gratuities for anything other than going above-and-beyond, but it has never been that way, and most folks know that.

Most people want to think today they are rewarding special efforts.

The key word there is "want." Really, no one wants to spend money if they don't have to, so any rationalization to spend less will have some appeal. No question about that.

So... let's look at a different way to approach the whole service thing. With Disney... everything is hoped to be perfect. So I would like to see EVERYONE... all personnel, brought into the Disney family, not needing any supplements (or total support) from DVC members, having a sense of being in the family, and being taken care of like all the others.

That's a very pretty fiction. Unfortunately, it's not so clear that it would work if put to the test of reality. Most experts in the Americas, Africa and the Middle East believe that without the direct impact the patron has on the compensation of the server, the service will suffer.

 

[keishashadow]

We always travel to the World w/a fistful of dollars , never seem to bring enough.

Have a running joke between DH & myself that every "Welcome Home", equals 1 US dollar.

At least $1-$2/bag, remember mousekeeping, and a few bucks for valet (when they run, they get more lol).

People in the service industry depend on tips, not the place to cut corners on vacation expenses IMO.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

People have been known to make up fictions for themselves to deceive themselves into thinking that things are different from how they actually are. However, if you ask most Americans the hard questions ("Do you know that bell staff, valets, waiters and waitresses actually get paid less than minimum wage, and that you, as patron, are expected to tip them so they can make a living wage?") they'll grudgingly admit that they do know this. They wish they weren't obligated to provide gratuities for anything other than going above-and-beyond, but it has never been that way, and most folks know that.

The key word there is "want." Really, no one wants to spend money if they don't have to, so any rationalization to spend less will have some appeal. No question about that.

That's a very pretty fiction. Unfortunately, it's not so clear that it would work if put to the test of reality. Most experts in the Americas, Africa and the Middle East believe that without the direct impact the patron has on the compensation of the server, the service will suffer.

Maybe you live in a fictional world, but people genuinely think they are rewarding people for better service with better tips. Don't you tailor your tips to reward better service?

You can suggest that people don't want to spend more money for better service, but you are wrong. People are willing to pay for all services. I am suggesting that we (DVC) put all CMs under the same umbrella. And they all be compensated fairly, without having to reach out a hand or give a look that says "I am expecting due payment from you".

Not all people use all services, but this is kind like public schools, you have to pay all the people fairly to get equal service for all.

I am not sure what EXPERTS you are referring to all around the world. Maybe you could name some. Nonetheless, how in the world do those CMs at check-in, activities, characters, lifeguards, etc. manage to give us such great service without being "tipped". It is because they are full blooded Disney employees that are taken care of without gratuities. All these people provide very special and personalized services and there is no reason why EVERYONE can't be the same type of employee.

This is not some pie in the sky thinking. There is no reason all services cannot be treated the same. Why treat a couple of services as being below all the other services?

I don't care what the norm is for the industry... I think Disney should treat everyone the same.

This is my last post on this thread. I only want fair treatment for all. And Disney can set or create the standard. Doesn't really matter, Disney can treat their personnel differently than any other industry, because they are different than all other industries. Disney is special.

 

[kimberh]

It's not just at Disney, It is at Hotels everywhere. I just went to D.C. with some friends, I know that I took about $50.00 in one's. It was not enough for the 3 days that I was there. I was one person. Between the cabs and 2 hotel changes, I ran out.

When we pull up at Disney, we pay to get the luggage out of the car and then pay again to take it to the room. When we leave Disney we take our own luggage to the car. I have thought about this on numerous occasions. We are saving $15.00 there, because we are not driving to the front of the hotel...

 

[bicker]

Don't you tailor your tips to reward better service?

As I mentioned, in those cases, the amount of the gratuity is subject to patron's discretion. Of course, better service gets a higher gratuity.

You can suggest that people don't want to spend more money for better service, but you are wrong.

I wish I was. Do keep in mind that I'm talking in generalities, not talking about you in particular. In general, Americans making most mass-market purchasing decisions with price as one of the most important considerations, typically trumping quality. That's accountable for the general degredation in quality that most folks readily acknowledge has been the case in recent year.

Not all people use all services, but this is kind like public schools, you have to pay all the people fairly to get equal service for all.

No thanks. I'll just pay for what I use, thank you.

I am not sure what EXPERTS you are referring to all around the world. Maybe you could name some.

The first one that comes to mind is [size=-1]Bob Dickinson ([/size]the guy who owns Carnival Cruise Lines). He's given several very compelling talks about the positive impact gratuities have on service quality in the travel and hospitality sector of the economy. There have also been a great number of articles over the years in Travel and Living Magazine, and others. I haven't seen any credible expert state that it would be good for the United States to abandon its system of gratuities for service, and I have seen many state that any company that took it on themselves to be the albatross and make the change without it being an industry-wide change would be very severely punished by the general public.

Please remember, I'm not talking about you. Don't take things so personally. I'm talking about the general public, which might not behave in the manner that any of us would like them to.

 

[Mtnman44]

Really? Did you invent them? TIPS have evolved into something expected and businesses now use this to their advantage by being able to keep their prices lower since part of their labor cost is invisible.

Imagine if we did this in other industries. It helps illustrate how non-sensical it has become. What if car dealers slashed their prices by 15% in order to drum up business but then everyone paid a 15% gratuity fee to the saleman when they purchased.... stupid. Should Walmart reduce prices and start paying the checkout people $2.85 an hour instead of $8.00 and let customers TIP them instead? It's the same model as waitstaff...

It's also not fair a lot of the times because the vast majority of tip income is not reported and thus not taxed. I've worked a tip job before where 80% of our income came in tips. I'll tell you that I was the ONLY one who reported my actual tips and I took a lot of heat for it. I'll bet if someone was able to do a study of waitstaff or hotel services, they'd find that the vast majority of workers seem to be reporting tip amounts that bring their total wage calculation close the minimum wage, even though we all know that almost all TIP workers make much more than that. That's the reason they do those jobs to being with, the good tax-free money!

Anyway, put me in the camp that wishes that employees did their basic duties on the basis of their employment (even if that means a raise for some industries). I wish Tips actually meant something, such as a reward for exceptional service or for an unusual request, expedited delivery, or something out of the way. Call me Crazy. Can someone please explain why you Tip the housekeeper but not the check in person? What about the groundskeepers? Bus Drivers too?

Again, the "original purpose" of tips was indeed, "presumed and expected fees".

 

[bicker]

Really? Did you invent them?

I'm sorry the information I've provided for you has upset you. Unfortunately, I cannot affect the reality of history.

 

[Mtnman44]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize the fact that your view of the subject was the end all of truth. My mistake. Anyway, any thoughts on the substantive parts of the conversation? What determines the jobs where a TIP is part of the cost and where it is really just for special rewards and requests? Why tip the housekeeper but not the checkin staff or landscaping or maintanence staff??? Personally, I think we should tip the workers that saftey check the elevators.

 

[bpmorley]

We just got back from SSR a couple days ago and didn't have anything said to us by any bellmen.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize the fact that your view of the subject was the end all of truth. My mistake. Anyway, any thoughts on the substantive parts of the conversation? What determines the jobs where a TIP is part of the cost and where it is really just for special rewards and requests? Why tip the housekeeper but not the checkin staff or landscaping or maintanence staff??? Personally, I think we should tip the workers that saftey check the elevators.

Don't forget the lifequards and the activity CMs... They keep our children safe and happy... certainly worth a tip in my book.

 

[bpmorley]

TIPS have evolved into something expected and businesses now use this to their advantage by being able to keep their prices lower since part of their labor cost is invisible.

I've worked a tip job before where 80% of our income came in tips. I'll tell you that I was the ONLY one who reported my actual tips and I took a lot of heat for it. I'll bet if someone was able to do a study of waitstaff or hotel services, they'd find that the vast majority of workers seem to be reporting tip amounts that bring their total wage calculation close the minimum wage, even though we all know that almost all TIP workers make much more than that. That's the reason they do those jobs to being with, the good tax-free money!

Anyway, put me in the camp that wishes that employees did their basic duties on the basis of their employment (even if that means a raise for some industries). I wish Tips actually meant something, such as a reward for exceptional service or for an unusual request, expedited delivery, or something out of the way. Call me Crazy. Can someone please explain why you Tip the housekeeper but not the check in person? What about the groundskeepers? Bus Drivers too?

You are correct in that Tips have evolved into an almost given. I did talk to a Disney bartender and he said that they automatically add 10% in tips to his paystub. So he pays taxes out of his check for 10% he may or may not have made. My advise to him was not to claim any cash he takes in, he's already getting screwed. He said that disney claims that 10% is the average. There are a few cities that have all restaurants add an automatic 15% to all bills. I won't eat those places. I worked in bars & restaurants and I wouldn't like my tips on the payroll. You may be the only person I know that claimed all your tips(although I highly doubt it, no offense)ever. I never claimed $1 of my tips. Did I mention that I'm retired from the IRS too. Tips of waiters/waitresses/bartenders aren't among their pressing issues.

Anyway, back to the point. I agree that tips should be for exceptional service not just the ordinary.

 

[bicker]

I'm sorry. I didn't realize the fact that your view of the subject was the end all of truth.

You've misunderstood what I've written. My personal opinions aren't the "end all of truth". The point is that that specific set of information wasn't my personal opinions, but rather was the actual facts -- the actual "original purpose" of gratuities in our society (i.e., "presumed and expected fees"). I'm sorry for the confusion.

What determines the jobs where a TIP is part of the cost and where it is really just for special rewards and requests?

The manner in which the employee is compensated. Valets, bellstaff and waiters are compensated based on the expectation that the vast majority of their compensation will be provided in the form of gratuities. Housekeepers, custodians, landscapers, and maintenance staff are compensated based on the expectation that they will not receive gratuities; indeed, they're technically required to refuse them (though that's not enforced vigorously).

 

[JimC]

About the only time that I was ever "pressured" was when I was in an elevator with a bellman and remembered that Valet parking was free for DVC members. He looked at me and said "not really". Other than that, I have never felt any pressure from any bellmen but maybe that is cause we tip.

He may have meant that the resort backcharges DVC for the valet parking used by the members. We tip the valet parkers irrespective of any additional parking charge.

 

[NMW]

A very nice bellman at BWV told us in October that Magical Express has really hurt them a lot. I had asked what he thought of the service since we are considering using it for our next trip. I expected him to tell me about the service itself, (how well it runs, promptness, etc.) instead he told me how much it hurts the bellemen. He said that people are hardly ever in their rooms when they deliver the bags. I asked if most people don't stop at the bellstand later and tip for their bags being delivered while they were gone. He laughed, and said that not ONE time has that ever happened since ME started. DH and I found this hard to believe. I know for certain that DH would stop by the bellstand the next day on our way out and tip for our bags being safely delivered.

Other than that conversation, I didn't notice anything different from our other trips both at DVC and deluxe hotels. We always tip when our bags are delivered, picked up from our room and stored for checkout, and brought to our limo for us. So, 3 times, but it's different people each time, so why shouldn't they all get tipped? We also tip the skycaps at the airport who take our bags for us. We also always seem to tip our limo driver (same guy) for both dropping us off at the hotel and then dropping us off at the airport. We probably should only do that once, since it is always the same driver both ways.

 

[Chuck S]

Tips have "evolved" into a given because the positions (bellmen, food servers, etc) that normally receive tips make very, very little per hour, as is allowed by the law...and yes, tips are "presumed" by law to be a substantial part of their income for tax purposes. It is the minimum wage laws that have created the expectation of the "tip" as a very real part of the employee income.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

A very nice bellman at BWV told us in October that Magical Express has really hurt them a lot. I had asked what he thought of the service since we are considering using it for our next trip. I expected him to tell me about the service itself, (how well it runs, promptness, etc.) instead he told me how much it hurts the bellemen. He said that people are hardly ever in their rooms when they deliver the bags. I asked if most people don't stop at the bellstand later and tip for their bags being delivered while they were gone. He laughed, and said that not ONE time has that ever happened since ME started. DH and I found this hard to believe. I know for certain that DH would stop by the bellstand the next day on our way out and tip for our bags being safely delivered.

I can certainly see how this would have a dramatic impact on the Bellman's compensation and another reason why I think this person should be a full pay full benefit CM. Forget the tips... IMHO.

 

[kathleena]

A very nice bellman at BWV told us in October that Magical Express has really hurt them a lot. I had asked what he thought of the service since we are considering using it for our next trip. I expected him to tell me about the service itself, (how well it runs, promptness, etc.) instead he told me how much it hurts the bellemen. He said that people are hardly ever in their rooms when they deliver the bags. I asked if most people don't stop at the bellstand later and tip for their bags being delivered while they were gone. He laughed, and said that not ONE time has that ever happened since ME started. DH and I found this hard to believe. I know for certain that DH would stop by the bellstand the next day on our way out and tip for our bags being safely delivered.

Disney covers the "tips" for the arriving luggage. I think this CM was delivering you a line!

 

[bicker]

Disney covers the "tips" for the arriving luggage. I think this CM was delivering you a line!

That is my understanding. From Disney's web site:

Q: Are Bell Service gratuities included for luggage delivery to my Resort room?

A: Yes, but only for inbound service if we handle your pre-tagged luggage. If you hand-carry your luggage onto the motor coach, gratuities are not included. Upon departure, gratuities are not included if you elect to use Bell Services for luggage assistance.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

Disney covers the "tips" for the arriving luggage. I think this CM was delivering you a line!

Hope that's true... Thanks for clarifying.

 

[NMW]

Disney covers the "tips" for the arriving luggage. I think this CM was delivering you a line!

Wow, I do hope that's true. I can also understand why people would not tip if they had read the info bicker provided. I've never used the service and have never read an FAQ on it. However, it does make sense that if Disney is TELLING people not to tip, that most, if not all wouldn't tip. LOL-maybe he was trying to make me feel bad for him. I made my husband give him $20 instead of the $15 he was going to give him. I guess it worked!