Rented points problem

[RobDoc]

Again, I fully understand the distinction between DVC and Disney. That distinction does not preclude a change in policy that would minimize this problem.

Perhaps the problem is that I am a firefighter, not a businessman. I don't really get the whole "It's not my problem so I am not going to solve it, even though it would be easy to so" mentality. I understand that is the way of most businesses, but I choose not to live my life that way or give others a free pass on it without voicing my displeasure.

I also understand that neither DVC or Disney can prohibit renting altogether. Another poster referenced how Disney should do every thing they can to prevent renting. I was merely pointing out that I don't feel that is what this topic is really all about and is a can of worms I don't really want to get into.

The problem is that you view this as a problem and Disney (Resorts) does not. In their mind, this is a contractual agreement between Resorts and DVC and also between DVC and it's members. It has been in place for 19 years now with very few problems. It seems that you are taking one or two anecdotal reports and trying to expand that into a problem when the reality is that the agreement has worked very well for 19 years now. I am aware of only a couple of reports where a member has been inconvenienced due to a problem with a reservation made using their points. One was resolved when the family member who used the reservation made good on the account and the other was this report involving a renter. Since we know nothing about how this rental transaction was conducted, I won't speculate how it might have been avoided.

It has not been a problem for DVC since we all agreed to it before purchase and it has not been a problem for Disney (Resorts) since DVC contractually agreed to the policy before DVC had sold any contracts. Someone has to take responsibility for these charges and DVC members have accepted that responsibility before they even made their first reservation. "Doing the right thing" is the responsibility of every DVC member and not of some "generic" Disney entity you'd like to see stuck with the bill.

I do not view this as a major problem for members wanting to rent and I do not view it as anything that would require DVC to modify the contracts it has with Resorts and it's 300,000 members. While you may think that is "easy to do", it is really not. If you consider it a problem, the best way to deal with it would be not to rent or to require a deposit to cover the $1500 limit.

 

[ftballfan7]

The problem is that you view this as a problem and Disney (Resorts) does not. In their mind, this is a contractual agreement between Resorts and DVC and also between DVC and it's members. It has been in place for 19 years now with very few problems. It seems that you are taking one or two anecdotal reports and trying to expand that into a problem when the reality is that the agreement has worked very well for 19 years now. I do not view this as a major problem for members wanting to rent and I do not view it as anything that would require DVC to modify the contracts it has with Resorts and it's 300,000 members. while you may think that is "easy to do", it is really not. If you consider it a problem, the best way to deal with it would be not to rent or to require a deposit to cover up to the $1500 limit.

I expect that those who have been bilked probbably consider it a problem.

As I pointed out earlier, I have not rented out points and have no intention of doing so. I really don't have a horse in this race. I just find it unfortunate that a way to solve the issue has not been implimented and I feel badly for the people who have been negatively affected.

I love Disney World and bring my family there as often as I can. I have been disapointed a number of times with the Disney Corporation however. Again maybe my expectations are too high.

 

[RobDoc]

... I just find it unfortunate that a way to solve the issue has not been implimented and I feel badly for the people who have been negatively affected.
...

Therein lies the problem. The way to solve this problem is to either accept the risks of renting or to personally do something about it by requiring a deposit from your renter to cover potential damages. If a member is negatively affected by a renter, it was something within his control to begin with.

We have only a couple of reports where this has been an issue and thousands upon thousands of rentals have been conducted thru this site alone over the years. If this were something where members were affected on a daily basis, I would expect some change to be made - either by DVC somehow addressing it or (more likely) by members deciding the risks or renting are too great for them to accept.

 

[dclfun]

I'm late to this thread and I've only rented my points once, to a friend, so I don't have a vested interest in seeing things change. I can't imagine that the resorts could institute a policy of no charging privileges for renters, lower the amount, etc. It's all part of staying at a particular resort and Disney makes money off having that KTTW card with those privileges- people don't always think of what they're spending and spend more $$. The mod and value resorts do have a lower limit. I'm rather saddened to think that some may read this thread and realize a way to scam- for every honest person reading there are others who aren't. It sounds like it's all to easy for someone to screw over the owner, by charging all their souvenirs and a big meal on check-out day for instance. I like the idea of charging a safety deposit but I'm sure renters wouldn't like that. Meanwhile I hope the OP gets the money back via a judgement rendered.---Kathy

 

[crisi]

I am having a hard time understanding how this can happen?

If we have a CC on file, our room charges are closed out and charged to the card the night before our check out. We receive a zeroed out statement under our door on the morning of check out. The only charges that show up later is anything charged to the KTTW card after check out.

Is it possible that Disney didn't close out the room charges until later or that the Guest denied the charges and they were charged back to Disney?

Bill

You put your card on the account. They ping it to make sure the card is open, but don't put a hold against it because that will cost them money. At some time during your vacation you call your credit card company, you cancel the card as stolen. When Disney then charges your card for the room charges, they discover a closed card.

Sometimes this is intentional, sometimes it isn't (the guest DOES loose their card and forgets this is the card that the room charges are held against), or the card expires, or some other reason the charge doesn't go through.

 

[JBx3]

Once again, you are trying to include DVC and it's members with Disney (Resorts) and that is not the case at all. Resorts has the $1500 limit for all WDW guests at Deluxe Resorts (I'm not sure if there are different limits for Moderate and Value Resorts). The system is what it is. When DVC started this was the policy negotiated and included in the DVC contracts. DVC is "doing the right thing" as it has agreed to this stipulation and has included it in the documents for all DVC members so that they are aware of it before they even purchase. It is the responsibility of each member to understand the contents of that contract. If renting is an important component of your membership, thsn it's your responsibility to be aware of this risk and protect yourself before renting (You could require a $1500 deposit from your renter) or just decide not to rent if you feel the risk is too great. Suggesting that the system is not "doing the right thing" after already agreeing to those terms is a bit ingenuous IMO. If it was considered a problem, the time to deal with it (and express the concern) was before purchase. Did you express your concerns before purchase or have a legal review of the documents before purchase? It's fine to say "do the right thing" but it would be wise to have that in writing before agreeing to what is included in the documents you agreed to at the time of purchase.

And once again, I am not debating the contract, or questioned it prior to purchase but everyone keeps tying in this "contract thing" and simply is not the point of concern that some of us want to address or debate. And it has nothing to do with what I read before or after signing a contract.

Secondly, I haven't even ever rented!

Your comment on saying it is what it is, is certainly accepted and one I agree with.

But to not run a firm charge prior to racking up $1,500.00 is nuts. But is certainly fine with Disney for 19 years or so becuase they always get to collect, regardless. By holding the DVC owner accountable. It has been mentioned that Disney is not holding the owner liable for those charges and will not attempt to collect, however freezing the use of your points simply does the same thing. That is the collectioning tool. Only other thing for an owner to do is sell, which at settlement Disney will first scoop up the debt.

Gaining a security deposit, although is a nice suggestion, it simply will not happen since the renter would simply rent from some other owner unloading points.

Disney is aware of this whole C.C deal and choose to have things remain constant, all I am saying is I wish there was a better way or better options to avoid the opportunity for fraud.

I surely do not mind who chooses to respond but wish they keep the contract out of it. Most here are simply debating the issue not the "contract" and I thought that is what a board forum was for?

 

[JBx3]

You put your card on the account. They ping it to make sure the card is open, but don't put a hold against it because that will cost them money. At some time during your vacation you call your credit card company, you cancel the card as stolen. When Disney then charges your card for the room charges, they discover a closed card.

Sometimes this is intentional, sometimes it isn't (the guest DOES loose their card and forgets this is the card that the room charges are held against), or the card expires, or some other reason the charge doesn't go through.

And I concur that this is most likely how the majority of the CC frauds are committed and have nothing to do with the companies not rolling over their systems until the next day or so.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...Most here are simply debating the issue not the "contract" and I thought that is what a board forum was for?

Nah, the Debate Board was closed down a long time ago.

 

[crisi]

This is not about whether Disney should allow renting by DVC owners or not. Taht is another topic entirely.

This is about acting ethically to minimize fraud when it is relatively simple to do so. Disney could make more money for their shareholders by paying 8 year olds in a developing country to work 18 hours a day making their t-shirts. This, however would not be ethical. Surely you would not want Disney to do that, college fund or not.

No, but I find it perfectly ethical for Disney to take advantage of the fact that members are responsible for "omissions by their guests" and extend charging privileges to those guests. The member is making the profit on the room, they should accept the risk.

In the majority of these cases we know about, no fraud is involved. But regardless of if there is fraud involved or not, Disney has a right to pursue the member for the amount.

 

[RobDoc]

...I surely do not mind who chooses to respond but wish they keep the contract out of it. Most here are simply debating the issue not the "contract" and I thought that is what a board forum was for?

How do you keep the contractual agreement DVC has with every DVC member "out of it"?

If you did not approve of the contract, why did you agee to abide by it? Discussion on this forum has NOTHING to do with the legal contract that every member already agreed to with their purchase. Our contract clearly states the policy, why is that in dispute at this time? The best time to dispute that policy would have been before you purchased and signed the contract.

 

[JBx3]

How do you keep the contractual agreement DVC has with every DVC member "out of it"?

If you did not approve of the contract, why did you agee to abide by it? Discussion on this forum has NOTHING to do with the legal contract that every member already agreed to with their purchase. Our contract clearly states the policy, why is that in dispute at this time? The best time to dispute that policy would have been before you purchased and signed the contract.

And I do approve of the contract. This is in dispute at this time becuase an OP just got ripped for over $1,400.00, all becuase Disney chooses to allow up to $1,500.00 charging before running a firm charge on that person.

When building a home you sign a contract with a builder, when buying a home you sign a contract with a bank, when buying a car a contract is signed.
We sign these thing becuase we either want or need them. It does not mean each and every item / detail in these contracts is perfect for the customer. And even if this part of the DVC policy was to be glaring at me at the time of signing, owner DVC and the bigger picture was more important to us.

In the case of DVC, there were many more reasons to sign, than not, and really for us very little reasons not to sign. In this case,renting, was the farthest thing from our minds and this policy part simply never even phased us. In fact, we still have never rented. However, when you see the OP get ripped for over $1,400.00 becuase Disney choose to only ping the card from the guest and not clearly get a pre-approval limit and that they choose to not make a clear firm charge on a KTTW card until checkout or in this case $1,500.00, you can then begin to challenge that policy part in the contract and decide whether you think this is still a fair policy of Disney's or one can be adjusted.

For everyone that stills wants to discuss the policy and say you signed it, that;s fine and for evereyone that still wants to discuss the fact the there is a fraud loop whole exposed and visible and Disney is aware of it but chooses to continue it's course, that is fine as well.

So I guess, yes, I am challenging that part of the policy. And
I guess a reply could come from someone in the form of "then don't rent", or "then sell your DVC" and I am doing neither at this time, just simply looking for an ethical solution to a piece of the policy.

The fact is this thread will cross over 200 replies makes this obviuosly a hot topic that warrants discussion (IMO)

 

[zebsterama]

However, when you see the OP get ripped for over $1,400.00 becuase Disney choose to only ping the card from the guest and not clearly get a pre-approval limit and that they choose to not make a clear firm charge on a KTTW card until checkout or in this case $1,500.00, you can then begin to challenge that policy part in the contract and decide whether you think this is still a fair policy of Disney's or one can be adjusted.

I agree with you 100%

That's a dumb way of doing business IMO.

If the money isn't secured via CC before the guest checks out/departs (as it should be IMO), then I would argue it's a Disney internal fraud policy issue that needs addressing. How can you let someone leave your premise without making sure the bill is paid? How stupid is that.

If Disney can make sure that my Key to the World card works at both my hotel suite, the parks, and on a cruise ship, I'm assuming that they have the means to ensure that I pay my bill before I escape into the sunset.

At other institutions, deposits are temporarily taken to avoid such issues.

Is Disney not aware of this function?
Do they somehow see this as intrusive?


I guess it might be in their terms and conditions, but IMO it's ridiculous.

Just my 2 cents.

Zebsterama

 

[zebsterama]

I also wanted to add that -- recently I rented points via a DVC member, and at check in, if the concierge told me that they needed a security deposit, I would have had no problem with it.

In fact, when they took my CC and did their swipe, I just assumed that's what was happening anyway ..... That's just silly on Disney's part IMO.

Cheers,
Zebsterama

 

[Chuck S]

It is what it is. Owners accepted the risk both at contract signing and when they took the action of renting their points. Again, Disney Resorts has NO responsibility to the individual DVC Owners, The resorts management contract is with the master DVC association, who agreed to those terms long before any sales started. I really don't see them renegotiating that clause of the management contract without additional costs to EVERY DVC member through an increase in dues. And really, why should all DVC Members assume responsibility for any individual member's transaction? It was the individuals choice to rent and to whom, not mine, not the overall membership.

Your decision to rent and make profit to cover your dues, your responsibility.

It would maybe be different if Disney put a hold against CC for any other guest, but they do not, and they treat DVCers, their guests and renters as any other cash guest. Seems pretty fair.

 

[Deb & Bill]

The Public Offering Statement requires that DVC members inform Member Services when they rent a reservation. It also requires that the member have a contract with the person they are renting the reservation to.

Since the member is supposed to have a contract, they should cover the credit card and any damages in the contract.

 

[Chuck S]

So I guess, yes, I am challenging that part of the policy. And I guess a reply could come from someone in the form of "then don't rent", or "then sell your DVC" and I am doing neither at this time, just simply looking for an ethical solution to a piece of the policy.

The fact is this thread will cross over 200 replies makes this obviuosly a hot topic that warrants discussion (IMO)

I would think the ethical thing to do is would be for the owners to honor the contract they agreed to when they purchased. Ethics, to me, is honoring your commitments and contracts. The ones you freely entered into.

 

[ssnelle]

Unfortunately, when we rent (the members), ultimately the room is our responsibility. I imagine we would have recourse in a lawful system, but I think the room at rental is our responsibility.

 

[CarolMN]

The Public Offering Statement requires that DVC members inform Member Services when they rent a reservation. It also requires that the member have a contract with the person they are renting the reservation to.

Since the member is supposed to have a contract, they should cover the credit card and any damages in the contract.

Having such a contract is great - but it doesn't mean enforcing it is easy.

In fact, IMO, contracts are only useful for helping to ensure that honest people have the same understanding of the transaction.

Enforcing a contract can be costly and difficult if both parties do not live in the same jurisdiction (and so could use small claims court). Collection is still an issue, even with a court judgment in hand.

Those who rent need to do due diligence on their customers just as much as prospective customers need to do so on the members.

AFAIK, the OP did not find his customer via the DISboards. But those who do use the Disboards to find customers, can and should check out the posting history of the person they are considering. In my experience, there is much less chance of fraud or even misunderstandings if you work with someone who has a vested interest in their online DIS reputation and posts here regularly. There are many here that I would not hesitate at all to deal with. There are also some that I would not even consider contacting, no matter how inexpensive the offer.

I am not saying any lurker is dishonest - they are certainly welcome here.


I am just saying that without a posting history, people looking into entering a business transaction with an unknown poster need to do more due diligence before money is exchanged. Again, IMO.

 

[ftballfan7]

It is what it is. Owners accepted the risk both at contract signing and when they took the action of renting their points. Again, Disney Resorts has NO responsibility to the individual DVC Owners, The resorts management contract is with the master DVC association, who agreed to those terms long before any sales started. I really don't see them renegotiating that clause of the management contract without additional costs to EVERY DVC member through an increase in dues. And really, why should all DVC Members assume responsibility for any individual member's transaction? It was the individuals choice to rent and to whom, not mine, not the overall membership.

Your decision to rent and make profit to cover your dues, your responsibility.

It would maybe be different if Disney put a hold against CC for any other guest, but they do not, and they treat DVCers, their guests and renters as any other cash guest. Seems pretty fair.

Signing the contract at purchase does not disolve Disney of any and all responsibility in these matters. Even with a contract designed to absolve an entity of any responsility in a given area, if due care is not exercised the responsibility can still reside at least partially with the entity. For example, I could have guests sign a liability waiver before they come on my property, but if they are injured due to my negligence I would still be responsible. That being said, in this case Disney's failure to protect the owners from fraud probably does not rise to the level necessary to shift responsibility back to them. I don't believe anyone is saying that it does. What is being said is that it would be nice (and yes, I believe ethical) if Disney took some minor common sense steps like charging the card more often or allowing owners to block room charging privelages.

I would think the ethical thing to do is would be for the owners to honor the contract they agreed to when they purchased. Ethics, to me, is honoring your commitments and contracts. The ones you freely entered into.

Again noone is saying that the contract should not be honored. they are postulating as to what steps could be taken as to limiting the damage when these instances of fraud occur. Simply following a contract does not guarantee ethical behavior. It is sad that so many in the world believe that to be the case.

 

[crisi]

Disney doesn't want the liability involved of being able to turn off room charging based on a DVC member's request. If its a service they offer, and they don't do it (or if there is a difference of opinion on whether you asked if you got stuck with the bill), they could be held liable. Treating everyone the same, and not offering the option, means that as an owner, you understand the risks of your guests leaving a bill behind (or you don't, but a member understanding the contract isn't their responsibility).

There is NO upside for Disney in changing this. They make less money on transactions in the parks because its harder to spend. They increase their own risk if one of the CMs does not remove charging when they've been asked. It would require a change to their systems to add the functionality - and systems changes are always far more complicated and expensive than you first estimate. It decreases the risk for owners to rent points - therefore decreasing the barrier to entry for their competition in the room rental business. The only upside for Disney is the warm fuzzy they get from maybe preventing some fraud that does not harm them.