Rental Liability???

[tor]

First of all, DVC is not a hotel; it's a timeshare, and that's a very important difference in this discussion.

If you are renting (or treating a relative to a vacation stay), you made the ressie, on your account, using your authority as a member...and you are responsible for the reservation. Period. You are the one who can't assign that responsibility to someone else.

The posts above already clearly show that, in fact, members are held responsible for all obligations of their guests.

I am responsible for the reservation but not the charges as making a reservation does not authorize charging. If they damage the property it is my problem but I do not extend them nor deny them charging privileges that is solely DVC's decision.

 

[tor]

DVC Membership Agreement Section 4.1 Club Member Rentals
A club Member my make a reservation to use the accommodations of the Condominium or other DVC Resorts, if any, himself, make their use available to family of friends or guests, or rent solely through his own efforts. DVD's approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name. No rental assistance is being offered by DVD or DVC or any affiliate or subsidiary of DVD and DVC. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy, and the renting Club Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of his renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Club Member to use the accommodation.

IMO the ability to room charge is a perk granted to all resort guests, thus it is part of the accommodation rented by the DVC owner, just like bus transportation and any other resort service that is normally included for an onsite guest.

Room charge is a convenience afforded to only those that the management feels they have the ability to recover the charges from by putting a credit card on file or putting a cash deposit and I'm sure I have not covered all the ways. The amount of this privilege varies by property when I stay at DVC resorts it is usually $1500 before you need to re authorize yet at All Star it was $500 these amounts may have changed since my last visit. DVC will not allow you the privilege because they can confiscate my points to recover the money.

While the paragraph you quote clearly says I am responsible for acts or omissions which would include any damage it again does not guarantee charging privileges to anyone because it is DVC's right to grant or deny you the privilege and the extension of credit is not part of the rental agreement which is why they give you the option at check in to accept or decline and it requires additional paperwork outside of the paperwork required to stay in the room.

 

[Chuck S]

I am responsible for the reservation but not the charges as making a reservation does not authorize charging. If they damage the property it is my problem but I do not extend them nor deny them charging privileges that is solely DVC's decision.

Again, not exactly true...by renting that physical room accomodation, you are also, by extension, granting them access to all other resort perks that are normally associated with a room reservations. Room charging is a normal perk of a room reservation, just like bus transportation, free laundry facilities for those in studios, use of the pool, etc. Your renters are treated the same as any other onsite guest by virtue of YOUR reservation.

 

[JimMIA]

To refresh everyone's memory about a few facts, we had a case several months ago in which a member was denied a reservation because there was an outstanding bill against his account. He was completely unaware of any outstanding bill and had never been notified by DVC that his account had been suspended.

Turns out, he treated a relative to a DVC stay. The relative left his credit card on file at the front desk for room charges, but when he checked out a CM made a mistake and his card was never billed. Instead of researching the unpaid charges, another CM compounded the error and transferred the charges to the host account. The member's entire DVC account was suspended when he failed to pay a bill he didn't know existed.

Subsequent research showed where the problem lay, but his account was still suspended. I believe the final resolution was the owner paid the bill and the relative reimbursed him. Then the account was cleared, but it was suspended for a long time getting the mess fixed...despite the fact that all of the mistakes were Disney's.

That was the case Doc referenced on the first page of this thread as evidence that Disney does indeed do what we're saying they can do.

We can each believe whatever we want to believe... but this documented case shows quite clearly that DVC can transfer unpaid charges of any type to the members account, they have transferred charges to members account, and they will continue to transfer any unpaid charges to members accounts.

Anyone considering renting should certainly understand the terms of their relationship with DVC in that kind of transaction. Anything that goes wrong with a rental is the owner's bad, not DVC's.

 

[tor]

Again, not exactly true...by renting that physical room accomodation, you are also, by extension, granting them access to all other resort perks that are normally associated with a room reservations. Room charging is a normal perk of a room reservation, just like bus transportation, free laundry facilities for those in studios, use of the pool, etc. Your renters are treated the same as any other onsite guest by virtue of YOUR reservation.

Yes all the perks but does Disney extend charging to every one by virtue of a reservation or do they put other obstacles in the way such as requiring a credit card or placing cash on the account.
Also renters are not entitled to all the perks as afforded to personal guests and must be identifeied as such.

To refresh everyone's memory about a few facts, we had a case several months ago in which a member was denied a reservation because there was an outstanding bill against his account. He was completely unaware of any outstanding bill and had never been notified by DVC that his account had been suspended.

Turns out, he treated a relative to a DVC stay. The relative left his credit card on file at the front desk for room charges, but when he checked out a CM made a mistake and his card was never billed. Instead of researching the unpaid charges, another CM compounded the error and transferred the charges to the host account. The member's entire DVC account was suspended when he failed to pay a bill he didn't know existed.

Subsequent research showed where the problem lay, but his account was still suspended. I believe the final resolution was the owner paid the bill and the relative reimbursed him. Then the account was cleared, but it was suspended for a long time getting the mess fixed...despite the fact that all of the mistakes were Disney's.

That was the case Doc referenced on the first page of this thread as evidence that Disney does indeed do what we're saying they can do.

We can each believe whatever we want to believe... but this documented case shows quite clearly that DVC can transfer unpaid charges of any type to the members account, they have transferred charges to members account, and they will continue to transfer any unpaid charges to members accounts.

Anyone considering renting should certainly understand the terms of their relationship with DVC in that kind of transaction. Anything that goes wrong with a rental is the owner's bad, not DVC's.

I agree you can choose to believe... whatever you like but if you read my post I clearly said that DVC will try and hold the owner responsible and would make your life as an owner miserable but again believe what you want but DVC billing you for credit they extended to a third party would not hold up in court.

 

[Chuck S]

Yes all the perks but does Disney extend charging to every one by virtue of a reservation or do they put other obstacles in the way such as requiring a credit card or placing cash on the account.
Also renters are not entitled to all the perks as afforded to personal guests and must be identifeied as such.

It is not a DVC Member perk, or a perk offered personal guests and not to renters, it is an ONSITE PERK, and those onsite perks contribute to the price you are able to get for your DVC rental...so you, as an owner who rents, are also benefiting from the availability of that perk. Along with that rental goes risks, and this is one of them.

 

[JimMIA]

...but DVC billing you for credit they extended to a third party would not hold up in court.

None of us know whether a particular case would hold up in court or not. But I'd bet that Disney's attorneys have already thoroughly looked at that prospect. I don't think they'd go to the lengths they've gone in some of these cases without the lawyers clearing it first.

The only way to know for sure, of course, is to take your case to court. How would a court rule? There's no way to know, because the facts in every case will be different.

Getting back to OP's original question, though -- Is there liability? Yes, and DVC has a track record of enforcing that liability...both in the case of damage to units and unpaid room charges.

 

[jgus]

WOW!!!!

I think I got it, basically Disney holds ALL of the cards...

Thanks for all the feedback.

 

[JimMIA]

WOW!!!!

I think I got it, basically Disney holds ALL of the cards...

Thanks for all the feedback.

Yep, but that's not all bad. If DVC doesn't hold an individual responsible, who do you think pays? ALL OF US! Losses become DVC operating expenses, and those come out of our dues.

I don't care if people rent, but I don't want to buy their problems.

 

[tor]

It is not a DVC Member perk, or a perk offered personal guests and not to renters, it is an ONSITE PERK, and those onsite perks contribute to the price you are able to get for your DVC rental...so you, as an owner who rents, are also benefiting from the availability of that perk. Along with that rental goes risks, and this is one of them.

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words on my part but if you re read my post I am saying that disney does NOT give everyone charging by virtue of having a reservation you have to have a credit card or money on account and even at that I am sure Disney reserves the right to NOT extend you credit. The credit privelege is seperate from the other perks and can be denied therefore it is the sole responsibility of Disney.

 

[tor]

None of us know whether a particular case would hold up in court or not. But I'd bet that Disney's attorneys have already thoroughly looked at that prospect. I don't think they'd go to the lengths they've gone in some of these cases without the lawyers clearing it first.

The only way to know for sure, of course, is to take your case to court. How would a court rule? There's no way to know, because the facts in every case will be different.

Getting back to OP's original question, though -- Is there liability? Yes, and DVC has a track record of enforcing that liability...both in the case of damage to units and unpaid room charges.

I would say it would be a poor bet thinking that laywers have thoroughly looked at the prospect because as you point out every case will be different. I do agree that they will try and make you responsible for the charges. Lets not forget that the original charges in question were not even reviewed or this whole thing would have been resolved with out anyone knowing about it. I am quite sure that whoever decided to charge back this to the owner did not contact Disney legal because any laywer that thoroughly looked at this would have asked if they attempted to charge the renters credit card.

 

[CarolMN]

I would say it would be a poor bet thinking that laywers have thoroughly looked at the prospect because as you point out every case will be different. I do agree that they will try and make you responsible for the charges. Lets not forget that the original charges in question were not even reviewed or this whole thing would have been resolved with out anyone knowing about it. I am quite sure that whoever decided to charge back this to the owner did not contact Disney legal because any laywer that thoroughly looked at this would have asked if they attempted to charge the renters credit card.

Sometimes it doesn't matter if you are right.

Even if you are right about how the court would rule, who among us would want their account "frozen" while the dispute raged? Court battles are never quick and I for one would not want to be without my points while the battle raged (so to speak).

FWIW, I think the case JimMia described is a very good example. It took a very long time to resolve - probably would not be resolved even now if the renter hadn't been a close relative of the owner.

The real point is that the owners need to be very careful when renting as Disney can impose consequences on owners due to renters' actions.

 

[Dean]

To refresh everyone's memory about a few facts, we had a case several months ago in which a member was denied a reservation because there was an outstanding bill against his account. He was completely unaware of any outstanding bill and had never been notified by DVC that his account had been suspended.

Turns out, he treated a relative to a DVC stay. The relative left his credit card on file at the front desk for room charges, but when he checked out a CM made a mistake and his card was never billed. Instead of researching the unpaid charges, another CM compounded the error and transferred the charges to the host account. The member's entire DVC account was suspended when he failed to pay a bill he didn't know existed.

Subsequent research showed where the problem lay, but his account was still suspended. I believe the final resolution was the owner paid the bill and the relative reimbursed him. Then the account was cleared, but it was suspended for a long time getting the mess fixed...despite the fact that all of the mistakes were Disney's.

That was the case Doc referenced on the first page of this thread as evidence that Disney does indeed do what we're saying they can do.

We can each believe whatever we want to believe... but this documented case shows quite clearly that DVC can transfer unpaid charges of any type to the members account, they have transferred charges to members account, and they will continue to transfer any unpaid charges to members accounts.

Anyone considering renting should certainly understand the terms of their relationship with DVC in that kind of transaction. Anything that goes wrong with a rental is the owner's bad, not DVC's.

If I recall correctly DVC took the hold off and agreed they should never have limited the contract as they did even before they had the charge taken care of. The other situation I am aware of were phone charges when no charging was on the room key. My take is the member is ultimately responsible for damages but unlikely DVC could make it stick for the member to pay for charging issues.

 

[crisi]

Sometimes it doesn't matter if you are right.

Even if you are right about how the court would rule, who among us would want their account "frozen" while the dispute raged? Court battles are never quick and I for one would not want to be without my points while the battle raged (so to speak).

FWIW, I think the case JimMia described is a very good example. It took a very long time to resolve - probably would not be resolved even now if the renter hadn't been a close relative of the owner.

The real point is that the owners need to be very careful when renting as Disney can impose consequences on owners due to renters' actions.

Its one of those "principle of the thing" sorts of situations where, unless you were an attorney yourself and in Florida with lots of time on your hands, the cost of straightening it out and getting a favorable ruling might be far more than the damages Disney would stick you with.

 

[tor]

Its one of those "principle of the thing" sorts of situations where, unless you were an attorney yourself and in Florida with lots of time on your hands, the cost of straightening it out and getting a favorable ruling might be far more than the damages Disney would stick you with.

Can't be to sure of that with what Disney charges for some things

 

[Duckfan-in-Chicago]

If I recall correctly DVC took the hold off and agreed they should never have limited the contract as they did even before they had the charge taken care of. The other situation I am aware of were phone charges when no charging was on the room key. My take is the member is ultimately responsible for damages but unlikely DVC could make it stick for the member to pay for charging issues.

Yep...Here is the thread from 2005, and I got a reply from my question from DVC with contact names in post 225. The room is damaged, you're responsible. The credit card doesn't go thru, it doesn't doesn't sound like that's their policy.
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=857452

 

[tor]

Yep...Here is the thread from 2005, and I got a reply from my question from DVC with contact names in post 225. The room is damaged, you're responsible. The credit card doesn't go thru, it doesn't doesn't sound like that's their policy.
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=857452

Copied from post 225 in the other thread


For anyone intrested, this is a reply I got from DVC today about their policy:

In response to your question regarding Member liability for guest folios (incidental charges to the room), the current policy is that a Member is not responsible for the payment of a folio that was incurred by the Member's guest(s) staying on Member's Vacation Points, unless the Member authorized himself/herself as the responsible party when signing the registration card upon check-in at the front desk. If we are unable to locate a guest of a Member who has outstanding charges, we may request the Member's assistance in contacting that guest in order to properly bill them.

If a Member, however, has an outstanding folio from his/her own stay (or the exception noted above), banking and borrowing privileges may be suspended until the outstanding balance is paid as stated in the Home Resort Rules and Regulations, Section II, paragraph 5.c(1).

I hope that this assists in clearing up the policy surrounding the payment of folio charges. Thank you for the opportunity to address your inquiry. If you have any further questions, I can be contacted at, 1-800-******** and touch option "1" for Member Accounting and ask for Donna Bennett or Karen Schattle. Thank you for your question.
__________________

I guess I was wrong they did contemplate who is responsible for a renters unpaid folio but as I predicted It's not the owner

 

[tubtruck]

It is not Disney's responsibility or obligation to grant or deny resort perks/privileges granted all other onsite guests based on the desires of a DVC owner. Room charging is part of the onsite perks for all onsite guests, whether it is a DVC reservation or not. DVC members can not designate who receives those perks...but they are responsible for their renters, as the DVC owner receives the $$ for the rental, using their points.

In other words, telling Disney not to allow charging is NOT an available option...Disney considers it the same as if YOU are the guest...it is YOUR reservation.

This seems crazy, surly if you ask for no room charging then none should be given, or at least none that the owner is in anyway responsible for, how can anyone else be responsible for someone elses actions, if someone else hands over their credit card as security then surly if Disney are willing to take it then that deal is between them and Disney. If someone was staying as my guest and they decided to commit a serious criminal act would I be responsible for this also?

 

[Chuck S]

This seems crazy, surly if you ask for no room charging then none should be given, or at least none that the owner is in anyway responsible for, how can anyone else be responsible for someone elses actions, if someone else hands over their credit card as security then surly if Disney are willing to take it then that deal is between them and Disney. If someone was staying as my guest and they decided to commit a serious criminal act would I be responsible for this also?

Criminal acts, no. But, I do know that during one of our early visits to Disney World that the credit card did not read properly...and they contacted our travel agent after we'd gotten home, because the agent made the reservation.

 

[Dean]

This seems crazy, surly if you ask for no room charging then none should be given, or at least none that the owner is in anyway responsible for, how can anyone else be responsible for someone elses actions, if someone else hands over their credit card as security then surly if Disney are willing to take it then that deal is between them and Disney. If someone was staying as my guest and they decided to commit a serious criminal act would I be responsible for this also?

I'm sure Disney doesn't want to be in the middle of denying charging to a guest when they normally would do so. If you check in and ask for no charging, they will honor it, but not if you simply don't want someone else having it who is otherwise registered to the room, I doubt they would or even could do that. However, it never hurts to ask and if something did happen relative to that area and DVC didn't honor that request, that would essentially remove any liability for the member not signed for the room. Though I really don't believe there's much risk anyway.