Religious Discussion Welcome Thread

[Big Dude]

I just wanted to share a "real life experience" that happened to me twice. I was born and raised Catholic. Even received first holy communion and confirmation after my baptism before becoming a recovering Catholic. During both of my parents funerals 4/04 and 10/05, they had "Christian" masses of burials.

During both of their "masses" it was announced by the priest that only Roman and Byzantine(sp) Catholics, who were prepared, could receive the holy eucharist. (body and blood of Jesus) (thin wafer and wine or grape juice)

My question to any "practicing Catholics" is When Jesus was seated at the the last supper as well as any other meal, did He make the same request? Did they have to be Catholics to receive the "body and blood" of Christ?

I would like Biblical references and not just made up Catholic references. Of course I went through catachism and they never taught Biblical principals.

Sorry for venting tonight but I used to have some really great conversations with EROS about religious stuff. I miss that!

Adam

 

[mtblujeans]

Have you ever looked into the history of the Catholic church? It might explain why some things are done the way they are....

 

[disneymom3]

Well, since Jesus was a Jew, I am thinking he didn't invite only Catholics. And since there weren't any at the time, I think he would have been pretty lonely anyway. I know (or assume) you were asking tongue in cheek, though.

The reason this rule exists lies in the Catholic belief that hte host and wine once consecrated do not simply represent Christ as many other faiths believe, but actually become Christ. They are asking that if you do not believe this that you not sort of diminish, for lack of a better word, their sacrament.

I know there is more to it than that, but that is the basic answer. I grew up Catholic too and now attend ELCA. However, when I go to church with my mom, I still receive Communion. #1How are they going to know? #2 I can't imagine them turning anyone away. In fact, in the diocese I used to live in, priests were not allowed to refust Communion to anyone.

 

[Big Dude]

Great start so far. Mtblujeans, I was raised Catholic. I know what they teach. I went to catechism every week and they did not teach anything biblical. It seems that a lot of their beliefs are "ritual". I spent time with my brothers and sister saying a rosary at my mother's wake. It seems that I (we) were praying to Mary instead of Jesus. Why is Mary put on a pedestal in the catholic faith and not any other faith?

I ask again, were only Catholics invited to recieve the body and blood of Christ? If not, why do they claim exclusivity towards the host?

Adam

 

[mtblujeans]

I am not Catholic. I would have to think long and hard on how to answer your questions without sounding.....bad! I'll get back to you....

 

[Wishing on a star]

I totally agree with your concerns and questions!

This is just one of the issues where the Roman Catholic Church is way off base and completely contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

Christ saves...
not Mary
not the 'Church'
not 'works' or sacraments

 

[beattyfamily]

I have a strong feeling as 'recovering Catholic', whatever that means, no answer will be sufficient to you. I think you only want to debate, argue and this will turn into yet another Catholic bashing thread.

I, as a practicing Catholic who loves my Church, will not participate. IMHO, it's a waste of my time but have fun!!

 

[ead79]

Adam,

First of all, I’m not Catholic, so my perspective won’t be a Catholic one.

It sounds like you’re having some concerns about some of the rituals that are associated with the Catholic church. I did not grow up in a ritual-oriented church, so rituals seem very foreign to me. That being said, I think it’s important to understand the Biblical background for why things are done as opposed to accepting them based simply on tradition. As Christians (whether Catholic or not), I think it’s important that we understand why we believe what we believe based on the Bible and not on the notion that “we do it that way because we’ve always done it that way” or based on man-made ideas. While I can’t speak to the reasoning behind certain practices in the Catholic church (like the Mary issue), I believe that they do have passages of Scripture associated with many (if not most) of their practices. The interpretation of those Scriptures is where other denominations might differ from the Catholic interpretation. I think it’s more than reasonable to ask for Scriptural backup for the various things you take issue with. Perhaps you’ll have a clearer understanding of the rituals/practices/beliefs of Catholicism once you hear some of their reasoning. Or perhaps you’ll find that you would be better served by a different denomination.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I just wanted to share a "real life experience" that happened to me twice. I was born and raised Catholic. Even received first holy communion and confirmation after my baptism before becoming a recovering Catholic. During both of my parents funerals 4/04 and 10/05, they had "Christian" masses of burials.

During both of their "masses" it was announced by the priest that only Roman and Byzantine(sp) Catholics, who were prepared, could receive the holy eucharist. (body and blood of Jesus) (thin wafer and wine or grape juice)

My question to any "practicing Catholics" is When Jesus was seated at the the last supper as well as any other meal, did He make the same request? Did they have to be Catholics to receive the "body and blood" of Christ?

I would like Biblical references and not just made up Catholic references. Of course I went through catachism and they never taught Biblical principals.

Sorry for venting tonight but I used to have some really great conversations with EROS about religious stuff. I miss that!

Adam

Well first of all,those at the last supper were Jews,including Jesus..I understand you asking for biblical references but I'm sure that being raised Catholic ,you also know that the Catholic Church is not Sola Scriptora and also relies on tradition..I'm not sure exactly why it bothers so many that a religion also relies on tradition.Judaism also relies much on tradition,so it's not surprising that a bunch of Jews would continue that practice into your new church.
Now I'm not Catholic anymore,but a Jewish convert so I'm just speaking from what I remember.. Communion in a privelage not a right..Not just anyone can recieve it..Only those recently confessed and without any mortal or venial sins is supposed to recieve it..Not even all Catholics are allowed to recieve it.. I was baptized and confirmed Catholic and for many years was not allowed to recieve it as I was "living in sin..Nor was my mother allowed to recieve it for years as she was divorced..That's not to say any preist would refuse me communion,that was on my own conscience.
Its not just about spiritual state though..That Host and wine is believed to be the the ACTUAL body and blood of CHrist,as such it needs to be protected.. In the middle ages,it was thought that non Jews would take communion so that they could get the host and use it in evil rituals etc..The Church took steps to prevent that and this is why th Wine and Host is always watched and protected,and why it's not handed out to just anyone.
The Catholic Church is always going to continue to rely on Tradition,just like Judaism does..If that is a real problem to you,you really may want to look at other denominations

 

[cardaway]

I have a strong feeling as 'recovering Catholic', whatever that means, no answer will be sufficient to you. I think you only want to debate, argue and this will turn into yet another Catholic bashing thread.

I, as a practicing Catholic who loves my Church, will not participate. IMHO, it's a waste of my time but have fun!!

Yeah, no need for future participation, you already got your shots in.

 

[disneymom3]

Great start so far. Mtblujeans, I was raised Catholic. I know what they teach. I went to catechism every week and they did not teach anything biblical. It seems that a lot of their beliefs are "ritual". I spent time with my brothers and sister saying a rosary at my mother's wake. It seems that I (we) were praying to Mary instead of Jesus. Why is Mary put on a pedestal in the catholic faith and not any other faith?

I ask again, were only Catholics invited to recieve the body and blood of Christ? If not, why do they claim exclusivity towards the host?

Adam

Adam--I already answered that question. Do you not like the answer? Yes, a lot of the beliefs are ritual and to me that is a beautiful thing in the church. There is a very long history of tradition. Sometimes that is good, sometimes not.

Regarding Mary, she is not worshipped, she is revered. She was the mother of the Son of God afterall, so she needs respect and I personally am pretty awed by what she did. An unmarried 13 or 14 year old who had to tell her parents, her betrothed, and her entire community that she was pregnant, most of whom were not going to believe her story and this was something that was a huge issue at that time. Anyway, the point of the Hail Mary which is what you were saying when you prayed the rosary is to ask her to intercede on your behalf. There is a belief of talking to the saints in prayer but it is not because they are worshipped it is more like they can have an audience with God to sort of present your case. It is not saying that you cannot pray and be heard by God as well, but sort of like getting everyone on your team to root for you.

Anyway, I hope this helps. I am wondering why you feel the need to have this discussion. It sounds to me like you may need to walk away and decide this is not the faith for you and find something that is a better fit.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. (John 6:53-56)

That is the Biblical reference to The Last Supper. I think it is describe in a couple of other Books, but the description is pretty standard.

I'm not Catholic so I really can't speak to "what they believe" beyond what has been explained to me by others. Basically, the body needs to be prepared and clean to receive the Host and part of that preparation is a sincere belief and understanding in the meaning of what is happening. I have been told that the Catholic service does allow for non-Catholics to receive Communion, if they are a member of a Christian religion which does accept Transubstantiation as fact.

I guess, if you want to make a case for this, the Disciples at the table may not have been "Catholic" by label, but if that is what Jesus truly said to them in a literal sense and not just metaphorical terms, I would imagine they almost certainly truly believed it so they would meet that Catholic requirement.

My religion takes the view that Communion is a metaphorical practice and an opportunity to strengthen a spiritual relationship with Christ. Communion is given to anybody who is willing to receive it.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I think the question is not whether anyone has a problem with 'tradition'.

IMHO, the real question is, should 'tradition' be required in order to be a 'Catholic' and in order to be 'Christian' and in order to gain salvation.

The question is, are these 'traditions' contradictory to Christ's teachings.

The question is, should a church be decide who meets the 'traditional requirements', and actively deny participation, therefore making the 'Church' the entitiy deciding and offering judgement/salvation. (as opposed to Jesus Christ, our creator and savior)

 

[JennyMominRI]

I think the question is not whether anyone has a problem with 'tradition'.

IMHO, the real question is, should 'tradition' be required in order to be a 'Catholic' and in order to be 'Christian' and in order to gain salvation.

The question is, are these 'traditions' contradictory to Christ's teachings.

None of these things are required by Catholicism in order to recieve salvation..All that is neccessary to recieve Salvation,as a Catholic ,is for someone to believe Jeses died for the remission on their sins

 

[helenabear]

I totally agree with your concerns and questions!

This is just one of the issues where the Roman Catholic Church is way off base and completely contradictory to the teachings of Christ.

Christ saves...
not Mary
not the 'Church'
not 'works' or sacraments

Where in the world did you get that Mary saves??? Wow, that was one thing I missed when I was growing up!

Btw, the idea on works is that if you accept Jesus as savior, you will do good works. Kind of like a cause and effect.

Lastly, there are other religions who believe that you are required to be baptized to go to heaven. It all depends on how you look at verses in the bible. That goes for works too... James said works were required... baptizing is always spoke about as well.

But never once did anyone ever say that Mary saves!

I totally understand about the idea of communion. Anyone who believes that you are taking the body & blood of Christ (and truthfully that comes from reading into the bible saying that Jesus was not saying it was a symbol of him when he broke bread with them... that he said "This is my body, given up for you" meaning it WAS his body) is allowed to share in communion in the churches that believe in transubstansiation. Conversely, if I went to a service that didn't believe in that, and I was offered communion, I would decline. It IS that important to me.

I pray to saints & Mary just as I would pray to my dead mother. They don't do anything more for me than if I asked a living being to pray for me. My requests aren't to Mary per say, but asking her to PRAY FOR ME. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

I'm sure others who have replied have said similar.

I love my traditions... I don't think anything bad of them. I also don't think that I am right and others are wrong. It's what I was raised with and what I am comfortable with. The communion thing is just a point of view on how you read the bible.

 

[Missy1961]

Where in the world did you get that Mary saves??? Wow, that was one thing I missed when I was growing up!

Btw, the idea on works is that if you accept Jesus as savior, you will do good works. Kind of like a cause and effect.

Lastly, there are other religions who believe that you are required to be baptized to go to heaven. It all depends on how you look at verses in the bible. That goes for works too... James said works were required... baptizing is always spoke about as well.

But never once did anyone ever say that Mary saves!

I totally understand about the idea of communion. Anyone who believes that you are taking the body & blood of Christ (and truthfully that comes from reading into the bible saying that Jesus was not saying it was a symbol of him when he broke bread with them... that he said "This is my body, given up for you" meaning it WAS his body) is allowed to share in communion in the churches that believe in transubstansiation. Conversely, if I went to a service that didn't believe in that, and I was offered communion, I would decline. It IS that important to me.

I pray to saints & Mary just as I would pray to my dead mother. They don't do anything more for me than if I asked a living being to pray for me. My requests aren't to Mary per say, but asking her to PRAY FOR ME. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

I'm sure others who have replied have said similar.

I love my traditions... I don't think anything bad of them. I also don't think that I am right and others are wrong. It's what I was raised with and what I am comfortable with. The communion thing is just a point of view on how you read the bible.

Great post. I think you described how many Catholics, including me, feel. Thank you.

 

[Figment22]

I don't remember where on the internet I found this but a non-Catholic friend of mine wanted reasons why she couldn't receive the Eucharist at Mass with her Catholic husband. As there is a specific scriptural reference here, I thought I'd share it, although I, too, am concerned that this thread could become a Catholic bashing one. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen.


OTHER CHRISTIANS AND COMMUNION

The guidelines for receiving Communion, which are issued by the U.S. bishops and published in many missalettes, explain, "We welcome our fellow Christians to this celebration of the Eucharist as our brothers and sisters. We pray that our common baptism and the action of the Holy Spirit in this Eucharist will draw us closer to one another and begin to dispel the sad divisions which separate us. We pray that these will lessen and finally disappear, in keeping with Christ’s prayer for us ‘that they may all be one’ (John 17:21).

"Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law. . . . "

Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread" (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not.

Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30).

 

[ead79]

Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: "For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died" (1 Cor. 11:29–30).

Just to point it out, non-Catholic Christians interpret that verse differently. We see it as being critical to ask for forgiveness of sins (examining yourself before taking the bread) before accepting the Lord’s Supper. Not to argue, just to point out another point of view. This has been a very interesting thread. I’m glad that everyone is being so respectful.

 

[phillybeth]

The reason this rule exists lies in the Catholic belief that hte host and wine once consecrated do not simply represent Christ as many other faiths believe, but actually become Christ. They are asking that if you do not believe this that you not sort of diminish, for lack of a better word, their sacrament.

Exactly. It's often announced as wedding and funerals since there are people attending those services who might not be familiar with the practices of the Catholic church.

 

[Big Dude]

This has been a very interesting thread. I’m glad that everyone is being so respectful.

I am too ead79. To the ones who have suggested I might want to find anoter denomination, I had done so many years ago. I attend a Protestant church and am very active in it. Thank you all for your answers to my questions. This is not and has not been an attempt to bash Catholocism. My mom and dad were both Catholics as well as 3 of my 6 siblings. I have the utmost respect for them and talk to them frequently about religion. One of my nephews is attending seminary as I type. It's just this whole Eucharist thing that has me aggitated somewhat. I guess I'll just have to get over it.

I pray that this discussion can go on longer so I can learn even more from you.

Adam aka Big Dude