Religion Question

[JoyG]

This is a bit over the top for me.

We are all bombarded with messages we dont agee with everyday in our society but I have the choice not to look, watch or read said messages.

I do a lot of tuning out of things that don't line up with my values.

 

[Mugg Mann]

This is a bit over the top for me.

Now the money thing I dont know but has been around a looonnngg time so I think I would let it go.

The skywriting you do have a choice, dont look up or look away. I am glad people have the freedom to write what they choose if they have the money to pay for it. If I am an alcoholic do I need to be offeded that the bar down the street hired a skywriter to tell me that there is $1 Molsons tonight, No I read it over not or and move on. Same with the billboard that I have to drive by on way to to work that has a meesage I dont care for, I have learned not to look but they have the right to post it there, religious or not.

The channels thing is over the top too. My goodness in this day and age, you have hundreds of channels to view from, should the nonsports fan be offended bc there 4 football games, on plus playoff baseball and ESPN, Holy mackeral! If your viewpoint could gather viewers and ratings and advertisers then it would be on TV, no one is stopping anyone from having a station like this.

We are all bombarded with messages we dont agee with everyday in our society but I have the choice not to look, watch or read said messages.

I do believe what Joy posted I dont think our country has any clue about religious persucution and from those examples you gave neither do you!

Your last paragraph would be relevant if we were in fact talking about religious persecution, but we weren't. Not even close, in fact. Again, this is what Joy said (and in my original post what I made a point to specifically note by commenting only on the bolded parts);

I have to wonder to myself if we (living in the US) even know what that means to have religious beliefs impressed upon us. I think it's immoral to demand that someone convert to your religion or face death. Places in the middle east or China might be impressing believes on others but I don't think we see that here.

It's a very long leap of credibility to assign the same meaning to "impress upon" and "persecution", but apparently you have chosen to make it. The two are altogether different concepts.

I'm sorry you were unable to comprehend the point I was trying to make.

 

[Mugg Mann]

I agree that our country operates with an assumption of judeao (sp?) christian values. That assumption could be seen as "impressing" our religion on those who don't hold those beliefs.

However, my comment was in regards to impressing your faith on someone to the point of it being immoral.

I don't think you've had christianity impressed on you as much as if you lived in other less free countries. I think there are many countries that you'd feel a lot more pressure than here if your beliefs didn't line up with the standard. I think the pressure you might feel in other countries could be considered immoral. And that was the point of my post.

I do a lot of tuning out of things that don't line up with my values.

I thank you for an articulate and reasoned response, especially in your first paragraph.

I understand why you believe that the non-stop bombardment of religious messages in virtually every facet of American society does not cross the line into being "immoral", but my comment was directed at your specific words in bold that;

I have to wonder to myself if we (living in the US) even know what that means to have religious beliefs impressed upon us. I think it's immoral to demand that someone convert to your religion or face death. Places in the middle east or China might be impressing believes on others but I don't think we see that here.

I think the crux of our disagreement is how we are each defining "impress". I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you are defining impress as forcing an individual to actually adopt the religion of the oppresors, while I am defining it as a tremendous amount of pressure to adopt that dogma as one's own and keeping up that pressure in the hopes of making that person adopt the dogma voluntarily.

I often wonder what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot with regards to repeatedly hammering someone with a religious message, and whether or not those who currently say it is easily dismissable would react the same way if they found themselves believing something other than the dominant paradigm. As a student of human nature, there is no doubt in my mind that such a reversal would not be greeted with the same nonchalance exhibited here by some.

Having not lived in other countries, I cannot reasonably make an intelligent comparison between this country and others. JoyG, I appreciate the concession made in your first paragraph above, and having said that, I do completely stand by my contention that for those of us who don't believe in the dogma of the majority, the concept expressed here by others of "no one is impressing their religious values upon you; it's no big deal, just tune it out" is the height of naivety.

 

[Mkrop]

I thank you for an articulate and reasoned response, especially in your first paragraph.

I understand why you believe that the non-stop bombardment of religious messages in virtually every facet of American society does not cross the line into being "immoral", but my comment was directed at your specific words in bold that;



I think the crux of our disagreement is how we are each defining "impress". I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you are defining impress as forcing an individual to actually adopt the religion of the oppresors, while I am defining it as a tremendous amount of pressure to adopt that dogma as one's own and keeping up that pressure in the hopes of making that person adopt the dogma voluntarily.

I often wonder what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot with regards to repeatedly hammering someone with a religious message, and whether or not those who currently say it is easily dismissable would react the same way if they found themselves believing something other than the dominant paradigm. As a student of human nature, there is no doubt in my mind that such a reversal would not be greeted with the same nonchalance exhibited here by some.

Having not lived in other countries, I cannot reasonably make an intelligent comparison between this country and others. JoyG, I appreciate the concession made in your first paragraph above, and having said that, I do completely stand by my contention that for those of us who don't believe in the dogma of the majority, the concept expressed here by others of "no one is impressing their religious values upon you; it's no big deal, just tune it out" is the height of naivety.

I'm sorry you didnt like my response but I think you are overlysensitive to one message in our society. Everyday people deal with messages that go agaisnt their beliefs, I mean look at the poltical arena for example. Everyday I see ads on TV, or on the radio that go agaisnt my core beliefs, you know what I choose to change the channel. I dont get all up in arms 'like how dare they" they have a right to those beliefs just as much as I have a right to disagree, thought that was what are country is all about. So in your example I really couldnt feel too sorry for you and the so called bombardment you feel, in most of your examples you can CHOOSE to get upset or choose to realize that on the particular topic in you may be in the minority in this country (there is nothing wrong with that just a fact) where on some other view you may be in the majority and those messages you probably have no issue with where and how they are expressed!

 

[Mkrop]

I don't think less than fifty years is "a looonnngg time" but you may have your own perspective.

ford family

I am sorry I didnt check my history. yes I do see that as a long time because it is longer than I have benn around so as long as I have been dealing with money those words have been there, so yes maybe my prespective is skewed on that one topic. Once again sorry!

 

[Buckalew11]

I do not care for door to door stuff. I do not go to the door and answer it. I have even done it to my own church members who were dropping by one night during visitation. They knew someone was home, my garage door was up etc. I just do not like it when anyone to just drops by.

I've also had Mormans come by and JW. We have invited the Mormans in when it was the middle of the summer and very hot and gave them a bottle of water. Most of them have always been very nice and polite to us. However, I had 2 young girls once and one was nice and the other got angry when I wasn't tilting her way.
The JW around here are nice people who give you the shirt off their backs. However, when it comes to visiting. You have to firm and not too friendly. I learned that the hard way. I started out being kind and friendly to this one group and they came back to convert me every Wednesday morning! Ack! i work on Wednesdays (at my house) and this became a problem, shooing them out of my shop. Finally I just had to be very firm (which seemed like being mean to me).

About those Gideon bibles. That has a soft spot for me because when I was younger they were very free to be able to hand them out in public places in this country (not so much anymore). That little pocket NT Bible changed my life. I was "churched" at the time but had never heard what Jesus Christ had done for me until I read that NT. I rarely ever pick up a Bible in a hotel but I'm sure some people have and maybe even found a place to start looking for God in a time of need.

I was surprised to hear while sitting in Chicago's airport last Sunday that they had a non-denominational service somewhere in the airport that people could attend. It came over the loudspeaker.

Also, the Carillion at Mayo played a religious song or two Wednesday at noon. So, I suppose there is an influence of christian things all around us. I mean, if you go to Dollywood on a Sunday they have a open service in the little chapel up there for anyone to attend.

I find great comfort in these things because I am a believer. However, if someone isn't I suppose that could be viewed as "impressed upon".

I find comfort in those type of things but NOT on my doorstep. So, I can only imagine how other people feel when their doorbell rings.

 

[JoyG]

I think the crux of our disagreement is how we are each defining "impress". I believe (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you are defining impress as forcing an individual to actually adopt the religion of the oppresors, while I am defining it as a tremendous amount of pressure to adopt that dogma as one's own and keeping up that pressure in the hopes of making that person adopt the dogma voluntarily.

In this particular thread you've got my definition of "impress" correct. I was responding directly to the OP's impress=immoral stance.

I also agree that there is a certain amount of "impressing" (your definition this time) going on in the USA.

"no one is impressing their religious values upon you; it's no big deal, just tune it out" is the height of naivety.

However, I disagree in the naivety part. I don't know you personally, but I do know some muslim americans for example who tune out just fine. There is a large segment of our population able to go about their daily lives despite living in a country that promotes a different belief system. I'm not denying there is a certain amount of impressing going on, but I'm also saying people are handling it everyday.

 

[Mugg Mann]

[/B]

I'm sorry you didnt like my response but I think you are overlysensitive to one message in our society. Everyday people deal with messages that go agaisnt their beliefs, I mean look at the poltical arena for example. Everyday I see ads on TV, or on the radio that go agaisnt my core beliefs, you know what I choose to change the channel. I dont get all up in arms 'like how dare they" they have a right to those beliefs just as much as I have a right to disagree, thought that was what are country is all about. So in your example I really couldnt feel too sorry for you and the so called bombardment you feel, in most of your examples you can CHOOSE to get upset or choose to realize that on the particular topic in you may be in the minority in this country (there is nothing wrong with that just a fact) where on some other view you may be in the majority and those messages you probably have no issue with where and how they are expressed!

Thank you for confirming for the second time now that you do not comprehend the point I was originally making.

 

[Mugg Mann]

In this particular thread you've got my definition of "impress" correct. I was responding directly to the OP's impress=immoral stance.

I also agree that there is a certain amount of "impressing" (your definition this time) going on in the USA.



However, I disagree in the naivety part. I don't know you personally, but I do know some muslim americans for example who tune out just fine. There is a large segment of our population able to go about their daily lives despite living in a country that promotes a different belief system. I'm not denying there is a certain amount of impressing going on, but I'm also saying people are handling it everyday.

As do I as well.

And I thank you for confirming that there is a certain amount of impressing. That acknowledgement takes you, IMO, out of the naivety category. We may have a differenting viewpoint as to what degree that impressing occurs on a daily basis, but I think you and I approach the overall issue the same way.

 

[Mkrop]

Thank you for confirming for the second time now that you do not comprehend the point I was originally making.

I reread your posts.

Then please try to enlighten me again. Ok you did not agree with the word perscution yet you still feel impressed upon by religiuos messages and symbols that are prevalant in todays' society that are not part of your core beliefs, correct so far. If not please let me know bc I am trying to understand why you feel so impressed on by religion and the examples you gave of a day at WDW.

I feel impressed upon everyday with messages that go agaisnt my beliefs as well, may not be religious in nature, but they go against what I believe. I choose to ignore them and get in line that not everyone is going to see my point of view.

Like Joy said there are many Muslims out there that are probably not too thrilled with certain religious messages posted places but they move on as probably many Jewish people who dont belive in the skywriting of Jesus Loves You in the sky, but they move on as well.

I would really love to know what I am missing bc like I said I reread your post I just think you are overlysenstive to religious messages bc you yourself are not religious. If anyone beside Mugg Mann can give me insight as to where I am missing his point I am open to hear that too. I am not trying to be a pain here I am trying to point of that your example of religious impression at WDW is not a persuasive argument.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I think what he's referring to (and please correct me Mugg Mann if I'm misinterpreting) is the expressions of faith that exist in the country that believers are so used to that we don't even register them. For example, when was the last time you heard a politician speak and NOT end his speech with "God Bless America". At Yankee Stadium, since 9-11 the 7th inning stretch begins with "a moment of silent prayer for those who have lost their lives defending our freedom and our way of life"-with everyone standing. Then we all join Kate Smith in a verse of God Bless America. The first game I watched after 9-11, that brought me to tears-but I'm a Christian so it resonated with who I am. I can certainly understand how all these expressions of Judeo-Christian faith could make someone who believes differently feel uncomfortable.

I do believe that we all have things in society that we have to ignore. As a Christian, I need to push aside and ignore what feels to me like a coarsening of society. There are magazines in every checkout line with cover "teasers" that refer to things I'd much rather people kept private and the overt sexuality and foul language used in the media can make walking a Christian path pretty difficult sometimes. I'd rather this stuff wasn't out there, but I'm certianly not going to say that they should be outlawed-I just have to look the other way.

 

[DarthKTrava]

Is it right or appropriate for anyone to impress their religious beliefs on another? I mean, for instance, a Jehovah's Witness visiting a random home and trying to tell the resident about their religion.

Thoughts? I'd hold that impressing religion is immoral as it should be up to the individual to make up their own mind based on their own research.



Rich::

I'd rather not have someone come and "force" their religion on me. And I have several friends who say the same thing too. Forcing isn't going to get anyone to see your POV without the potential for hostility. And religion is one of those "hotbed topics" that can cause lots of tension (politics being the other) and can cause more harm than good. It's one thing to say you're of "such-and-such" faith and then expound on it ONLY AFTER THE OTHER PERSON SHOWS INTEREST. And don't preface it with "you're going to hell if you don't believe as I do" nonsense.

Just be civil and polite and PROVE that your faith is worthwhile to them BY YOUR OWN ACTIONS. If you're nice, then they're more likely to be nice to you. Be a jerk and don't act surprised when they're a jerk back to you....

It's the whole "do unto others as YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU".

 

[Mkrop]

I think what he's referring to (and please correct me Mugg Mann if I'm misinterpreting) is the expressions of faith that exist in the country that believers are so used to that we don't even register them. For example, when was the last time you heard a politician speak and NOT end his speech with "God Bless America". At Yankee Stadium, since 9-11 the 7th inning stretch begins with "a moment of silent prayer for those who have lost their lives defending our freedom and our way of life"-with everyone standing. Then we all join Kate Smith in a verse of God Bless America. The first game I watched after 9-11, that brought me to tears-but I'm a Christian so it resonated with who I am. I can certainly understand how all these expressions of Judeo-Christian faith could make someone who believes differently feel uncomfortable.

I do believe that we all have things in society that we have to ignore. As a Christian, I need to push aside and ignore what feels to me like a coarsening of society. There are magazines in every checkout line with cover "teasers" that refer to things I'd much rather people kept private and the overt sexuality and foul language used in the media can make walking a Christian path pretty difficult sometimes. I'd rather this stuff wasn't out there, but I'm certianly not going to say that they should be outlawed-I just have to look the other way.

Thanks Fitswimmer, I do agree that we do live in a Judeo-Christian society and for those not in the majority that is tough but I do feel then can also chose to ignore the message. I would not let messages like the examples he gave ruin my day. If someone choses for example, to skywrite "There is no God", although I dont agree with the message I am not going to let it affect me, there are entitle to beleive in that message.

But there is also a lot that has been taken away in our society based on that fact that people want to make it more secular. You cant sing God Bless America in public schools anymore, you cant sing Christmas songs anymore, even Halloween is turned into Fall Festivals in order to remove any traces of religion. So although in some areas we may have seen some increases I think we have also seen religion being eroded or done away in others.

But there are many people who live in a portion of a minority of this society maybe not a religious one but some minority of a viewpoint just the same and when you are in that minority you can choose to either get upset at all the messages or you can choose to let it go.

And your second paragraph definitely rings true for me.

 

[Cool-Beans]

If I saw "There is no God" written in the sky, I'd think the same thing I do when I see "Jesus loves you" written in the sky. I'd think that skywriting is cool and that the person involved might be a little too obsessed with their message. Then I'd go on with my day.

I think a lot of this diversity and tolerance stuff would go a long way when someone comes to the door. Appreciate that people are different. Remember that their beliefs encourage them to knock on doors. Yeah, it is a bit of a pain in the buttinski, but it really isn't THAT big a deal. Try to tolerate it and just say something polite and close the door.

Unwanted people at the door are just NOT that big a problem, for Pete's sake.

 

[Dancin Desert]

Am I spiritual? Yes. Am I religious? No

I believe what I believe, but try not to "force" my belief(s) on anyone, EXCEPT for maybe my sons. I had a business associate who would constantly say, "I'll pray for you." even though I never asked he do any such thing. Now, if I ASKED him to pray for me, I'd have been flattered. As it was, hearing that "stuff" was a serious pain in my side (sic).

I tend to try to "show my faith" through my actions.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Thanks Fitswimmer, I do agree that we do live in a Judeo-Christian society and for those not in the majority that is tough but I do feel then can also chose to ignore the message. I would not let messages like the examples he gave ruin my day. If someone choses for example, to skywrite "There is no God", although I dont agree with the message I am not going to let it affect me, there are entitle to beleive in that message.

But there is also a lot that has been taken away in our society based on that fact that people want to make it more secular. You cant sing God Bless America in public schools anymore, you cant sing Christmas songs anymore, even Halloween is turned into Fall Festivals in order to remove any traces of religion. So although in some areas we may have seen some increases I think we have also seen religion being eroded or done away in others.

But there are many people who live in a portion of a minority of this society maybe not a religious one but some minority of a viewpoint just the same and when you are in that minority you can choose to either get upset at all the messages or you can choose to let it go.

And your second paragraph definitely rings true for me.

I don't think they "ruin his day", but I think that we who are in the majority need to be a concious of the pervasiveness of Judeo-Christian tradition and be honest about how appropriate or necessary it is.

Do our kids REALLY need to have Halloween parties and costume parades at school? It's not like they won't have plenty of opportunities to trick or treat or have parties. (actually, more of the objection to Halloween that I've seen comes from the Christian circles than anyone else)

If we're going to have the kids sing Christmas carols, then they should also learn music from other cultures. That's why it's called "public" school. They should learn about ALL the cultures in the public sphere. My only objection comes in situations where ONLY the Christmas songs are banned. Either honor ALL, or honor none.

Parents always have the option to send their children to religious schools, or homeschool them. They also have the option to emphasize their faith at home and teach their children about the differences in the culture from the teachings of their faith.

Think for a moment about how it would feel if you woke up tomorrow and the dominant majority was NOT Judeo-Christian. I'd like to think that I could maintain my faith and be able to ignore the influence of the majority, but I can't be sure that it wouldn't bother me.

I know it sounds PC, but there is a lot to be said for not just paying attention to the feelings of the majority. Didn't Jesus say something about "whatsoever you do for the least of my brethren, you do unto Me?" It's easy to honor the folks we agree with, it's harder to honor the ones we don't.

 

[Mkrop]

I don't think they "ruin his day", but I think that we who are in the majority need to be a concious of the pervasiveness of Judeo-Christian tradition and be honest about how appropriate or necessary it is.

Do our kids REALLY need to have Halloween parties and costume parades at school? It's not like they won't have plenty of opportunities to trick or treat or have parties. (actually, more of the objection to Halloween that I've seen comes from the Christian circles than anyone else)

If we're going to have the kids sing Christmas carols, then they should also learn music from other cultures. That's why it's called "public" school. They should learn about ALL the cultures in the public sphere. My only objection comes in situations where ONLY the Christmas songs are banned. Either honor ALL, or honor none.

Parents always have the option to send their children to religious schools, or homeschool them. They also have the option to emphasize their faith at home and teach their children about the differences in the culture from the teachings of their faith.

Think for a moment about how it would feel if you woke up tomorrow and the dominant majority was NOT Judeo-Christian. I'd like to think that I could maintain my faith and be able to ignore the influence of the majority, but I can't be sure that it wouldn't bother me.

I know it sounds PC, but there is a lot to be said for not just paying attention to the feelings of the majority. Didn't Jesus say something about "whatsoever you do for the least of my brethren, you do unto Me?" It's easy to honor the folks we agree with, it's harder to honor the ones we don't.

Yes I do think kids need Halloween parties JMHO. It is fun plain and simple and in my area most Christians are ok with it. At least that is the feedback I am getting on the soccer and baseball fields and the preschool set.

I dont think it is fair that the "public" schools do away with Christmas carols yet allow Hannaukah songs and such still be allowed. I think it wonderful if they learn about all of them but that doesnt seem to be the case anymore at least where I live.

Many of these reasons are why I send my child to a Catholic school!

I asked my DB GF who is Jewish if all the Christian symbols in todays society bother (and used the example of skywriting and evangelical tv shows etc) her bc technically they are in the minority when most of the country is Christain and she said she sees them, but her faith is important to her and that is what she focuses on not other messages out there. She is 25.

And just because I dont agree that those in the minority are being bombarded by majority messages in religion does not mean that I dont honor their beliefs. I respect their decision to have them but I dont see a need to erode mine. Like I said most of us our in the minority probably somewhere in life. I know for me it is politics, the messages I see in everday life do not agree with my beliefs, I just deal with it.

 

[Miz Diz]

Yes I do think kids need Halloween parties JMHO. It is fun plain and simple and in my area most Christians are ok with it.

The person asked do they need these in school? No one disputes the fun of Halloween. Why do they need a Halloween party at school? What does it teach them? It also does not include everyone. Last year, in my son's class of 18 kids, 4 of them did not believe in celebrating Halloween, but yet the class was encouraged to come to school dressed up and they had a party.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Yes I do think kids need Halloween parties JMHO. It is fun plain and simple and in my area most Christians are ok with it. At least that is the feedback I am getting on the soccer and baseball fields and the preschool set.

I dont think it is fair that the "public" schools do away with Christmas carols yet allow Hannaukah songs and such still be allowed. I think it wonderful if they learn about all of them but that doesnt seem to be the case anymore at least where I live.

Many of these reasons are why I send my child to a Catholic school!

I asked my DB GF who is Jewish if all the Christian symbols in todays society bother (and used the example of skywriting and evangelical tv shows etc) her bc technically they are in the minority when most of the country is Christain and she said she sees them, but her faith is important to her and that is what she focuses on not other messages out there. She is 25.

And just because I dont agree that those in the minority are being bombarded by majority messages in religion does not mean that I dont honor their beliefs. I respect their decision to have them but I dont see a need to erode mine. Like I said most of us our in the minority probably somewhere in life. I know for me it is politics, the messages I see in everday life do not agree with my beliefs, I just deal with it.

You're doing exactly what you should if your faith is that important-you're sending your kids to a school that teaches your faith. So what's going on in the public school isn't affecting them.

I find it funny that with all the talk about how Johnny can't read and Janie can't make change and how many kids are inactive and overweight-Heaven forbid that we take away their Halloween parties, or their birthday cupcakes or their other treats IN SCHOOL. I work out with a sixth grade teacher and she said there was practically a riot in her school when they announced that they would no longer be having parties in school. The parents had fits over it. These are 12 year olds-not kindergarteners!!

My DN's school had an issue with the Christmas songs being banned and the others left in. It turned out that the Board was misinterpreting the law, and as soon as that was clarified they went back to using songs from all cultures.

I believe it is my responsibility as a Christian to consider the feelings of those who do not share my faith. I'm not always that good at it, but it is something I'm working hard on. I think it enhances my faith to learn about and be sensitive to others who hold different beliefs-it doesn't erode it.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Jesus told us to share the Gospel to all the world.

You can't force conversion though.