RE: Gastric Bypass Threads

[sconnell]

I've recently read some threads regarding various issues with Gastric Bypass patients visiting Disney. It seems that there are lots of opinions out there and I just clarify a few things for those who might not know much about it. I don't think people realize that morbid obesity is categorized as a disease and that gastric bypass surgery results in a person eating no more than 1 cup of food (and that is after much time has gone by). According to doctors at Emory in Atlanta, right after surgery, the patient should be able to eat what fits into a ping pong ball. After much time has gone by, he/she should be able to eat what could fit into a tennis ball. (Which is less than my toddler.) Please remember, I am just talking about gastric bypass surgery. (There are many weight-loss surgeries.)

As we have seen in the media so much lately, obesity is on the rise in America. It is serious. The American Obesity Association has lots of information if you would like to become more educated on the subject. If you would like to check your own BMI click here.

 

[bicker]

I'm sorry for this clarification, sconnell, but morbid obesity is a "condition", not a "disease", at this time. I know folks tried for many years, while I was still morbidly obese, to get it classified as a disease, so it would be covered by ADA, but as far as I know, it never happened.

Regardless of the technical classification....

I'm not sure which threads you're referring to, but I've read some recently and don't remember many folks making the point that the amount of food that people eat was the only consideration. In reality it is not. Rather, the two most significant contributions to the cost of running a restaurant are (1) cost of labor, and (2) cost of customer acquisition. In both of those cases, a gastric bypass patient results in roughly the same cost to the restaurant as any other guest. Beyond that, prices charged are typically based on value rather than cost.

That's why it is so troublesome to consider special considerations with regard to price, as it concerns gastric bypass patients. Lower priced menu items for children are offered as an incentive to get the parents to come into the restaurant -- indeed the cost of labor associated with serving children is easily classifiable as a cost of customer acquisition with regard to the parents. Restaurants that offer special considerations for gastric bypass patients need to do so in the context of "how does offering such considerations provide incentive for other guests to dine at the restaurant, paying full price."

There is a path there, as far as I can see. In most cases, but not all, gastric bypass patients visit a restaurant with at least one other adult, and as such there should be a firm basis for providing such special considerations.

So the problem is how to ensure that such special considerations are limited to only those patrons for whom they're truly warranted, i.e., gastric bypass patients, given that federal law prohibits requiring proof?

 

[Lewisc]

I'm confused. I know the ADA prohibits asking for proof of a disability but you just said obesity isn't a covered condition so why can't a restaurant ask for proof? Restaurants can ask for proof of age before giving children or senior discounts. How is this any different?

Some guests make multiple trips to a buffet. Other guests, some on a diet, may only take one small plate. Your point is well taken, the actual cost of the food is not the largest cost of running a restaurant. That said most of the fast food restaurants got rid of their salad buffets because the cost of food became too large a percentage of the cost of the salad buffet charge.

I'm sorry for this clarification, sconnell, but morbid obesity is a "condition", not a "disease", at this time. I know folks tried for many years, while I was still morbidly obese, to get it classified as a disease, so it would be covered by ADA, but as far as I know, it never happened.

Regardless of the technical classification....

I'm not sure which threads you're referring to, but I've read some recently and don't remember many folks making the point that the amount of food that people eat was the only consideration. In reality it is not. Rather, the two most significant contributions to the cost of running a restaurant are (1) cost of labor, and (2) cost of customer acquisition. In both of those cases, a gastric bypass patient results in roughly the same cost to the restaurant as any other guest. Beyond that, prices charged are typically based on value rather than cost.

That's why it is so troublesome to consider special considerations with regard to price, as it concerns gastric bypass patients. Lower priced menu items for children are offered as an incentive to get the parents to come into the restaurant -- indeed the cost of labor associated with serving children is easily classifiable as a cost of customer acquisition with regard to the parents. Restaurants that offer special considerations for gastric bypass patients need to do so in the context of "how does offering such considerations provide incentive for other guests to dine at the restaurant, paying full price."

There is a path there, as far as I can see. In most cases, but not all, gastric bypass patients visit a restaurant with at least one other adult, and as such there should be a firm basis for providing such special considerations.

So the problem is how to ensure that such special considerations are limited to only those patrons for whom they're truly warranted, i.e., gastric bypass patients, given that federal law prohibits requiring proof?

 

[bicker]

The ADA does not explicitly prohibit requiring proof of a medical condition; Rather, judgements against companies regarding ADA Title III enforcement mention that restriction. I've tried finding the actual federal statute, but it seems to be common law rather than statute.

 

[Lewisc]

That sidesteps my point. You said obesity isn't even a covered condition under ADA. Asking for a note shouldn't be any different than asking for a AAA card for a AAA discount or asking for proof of age for an age related discount.

The ADA does not explicitly prohibit requiring proof of a medical condition; Rather, judgements against companies regarding ADA Title III enforcement mention that restriction. I've tried finding the actual federal statute, but it seems to be common law rather than statute.

 

[bicker]

Asking for a note shouldn't be any different than asking for a AAA card for a AAA discount or asking for proof of age for an age related discount.

It is different though. It's asking about a medical condition, not a membership in a club. Medical information is typically covered by privacy laws.

 

[Mad4Dizne]

Excellent information! More and more people are learning about the hormonal link to obesity (hopefully some day their will be a hormone for people to take!!!!) and why some people just can't use their "willpower"; and why the need for gastric bypass exists. Well put!!!!

 

[sconnell]

I'm sorry for this clarification, sconnell, but morbid obesity is a "condition", not a "disease", at this time. I know folks tried for many years, while I was still morbidly obese, to get it classified as a disease, so it would be covered by ADA, but as far as I know, it never happened.

Obesity is a listed disease in the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-9-CM). The ICD-9-CM is published by the World Health Organization and is the definitive compilation of diseases; the United States Public Health Service uses it.

I'm not sure which threads you're referring to, but I've read some recently and don't remember many folks making the point that the amount of food that people eat was the only consideration.

Consideration for what? I never mentioned anything about charging policies at restaraunts. I was only dispelling some myths about one of the last acceptable causes for discrimination. Please note that according to NIH guidelines, a Body Mass Index (BMI) above 40 is the degree of obesity where surgery is justifiable.

 

[sconnell]

I've been thinking, and I don't know much about the GAC (guest assistance card), but from what I can tell, a gastric bypass patient should be able to obtain one stating that they should be charged child's price at buffets and allowed to order off of the child's menu. Does this sound correct? My only knowledge of the GAC is based on post six in this thread from the DISabilities board. DISabilities Q & A

 

[nbodyhome]

I am not a gastric bypass patient, but I did lose weight naturally (and yes, obesity runs in my family - but most have or are overcoming it with a lot of hard work with diet and exercise). I don't eat as much as most people at one sitting. But it certainly isn't something for me to say "I was morbidly obese, and don't eat so much, I need a childs meal at this restaurant". I either will eat less of my meal and take it with me. Or I might get an appetizer at some restaurants - like the appetizer spagetti at Alfredos. I have gotten childs portions at table service restaurants when allowed (if I can't take it home, otherwise I will get the adults - but I don't like to waste food I won't eat). Or I will eat counter service, which I often do - a slice of pizza, a half a sandwich, a smoothie, or a kids counter service meal on occasion.

While obesity has a very strong link in genetics, it's funny how 20 years ago, we weren't as fat as we are now. I can't imagine that our genes have changed that much in such a short period of time! I had to force myself to be an active person, and now it is second nature to me. Losing weight isn't just about the pounds, but it's about adopting a healthier lifestyle. I am not slim at this point, I still have 25 or so pounds left (to get in a very healthy weight range, not to be skinny-minny), but my health stats are excellent, and that is most important.

There is nothing wrong with asking if you could have a childs portion, or a half-portion, and let them know why if they say no. But I'm thrilled when I ask and they say "yes", and I just order something small on the menu if they say no.

 

[sconnell]

At dinner shows, is the entertainment fee less or more than a child's buffet price?

 

[nbodyhome]

They don't break down that price (for dinner shows). I was at Hoop De Doo a couple of years ago. I probably had a piece of chicken, and a little bit of the sides. Not that much, but the show was fun.

Denise

 

[bicker]

Obesity is a listed disease in the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-9-CM).

Yup, understood. I just pointed out that it is not considered a disease as per ADA.

Consideration for what? I never mentioned anything about charging policies at restaraunts.

Yes, but that was the context of some of the threads you were referring to. I thought that was at least part of the context of your message, since you had mentioned it.

 

[sconnell]

Yes, but that was the context of some of the threads you were referring to. I thought that was at least part of the context of your message, since you had mentioned it.

I was referring to threads on gastric bypass in general. I mentioned the amount of food that a person consumes after surgery merely as a point of interest, as that fact was very interesting to me when I first heard it. My OP was intended to be a bit of information for those who are unaware of the seriousness of obesity. I wasn't trying to start a debate with you, bicker, or anyone else.

I'm sorry for this clarification, sconnell, but morbid obesity is a "condition", not a "disease", at this time.

I just pointed out that it is not considered a disease as per ADA.

The ADA defines "disability" as "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of [an] individual." Disability also includes a record of having such an impairment or being regarded as having such an impairment. The statute, then, by its terms neither expressly includes nor excludes obesity.

 

[bicker]

I mentioned the amount of food that a person consumes after surgery merely as a point of interest, as that fact was very interesting to me when I first heard it.

Understood. Thanks for that clarification.

The statute, then, by its terms neither expressly includes nor excludes obesity.

However, case law does expressly exclude obesity as a "disability".

 

[Lewisc]

It is different though. It's asking about a medical condition, not a membership in a club. Medical information is typically covered by privacy laws.

Yes, but isn't a guest waiving privacy when he voluntarily discloses his surgery for the purpose of obtaining a discount? Otherwise Disney might be in the position of charging a smaller price to any guest who's on a diet and wants to eat what he considers to be a child portion.

NOT TRYING TO GIVE YOU A HARD TIME, I don't know the answer and am trying to understand the logic.

If obesity was an ADA issue guests on a strict diet might also try to get the discount. I suspect the number of gastric bypass guests is small enough to enable Disney to offer the discount as a goodwill gesture since some of those famlies might otherwise completely skip the meal. Disney could probably justify a price greater than the child price but less than the adult price but I doubt it makes any sense for Disney to program a third price into their system.

 

[sconnell]

lol. I am truely enjoying the banter.

However, case law does expressly exclude obesity as a "disability".

Your first rebuttle mentioned nothing of ADA or case law as means to refute my statement that "obesity is a disease." I suppose I didn't realise that the world's definitve source for disease definitions, the ICD-9-CM, wasn't enough to determine that it is a "disease" not a "condition." lol.

 

[Lewisc]

lol. I am truely enjoying the banter. Your first rebuttle mentioned nothing of ADA or case law as means to refute my statement that "obesity is a disease." I suppose I didn't realise that the world's definitve source for disease definitions, the ICD-9-CM, wasn't enough to determine that it is a "disease" not a "condition." lol.

The question is if Disney is giving the discount for goodwill or if they're required to offer it under ADA rules.

Disney doesn't charge extra to those morbidly obese customers that go back to the buffet table multiple times. There isn't any logical reason to offer discounts to guests who eat very little.

I suspect Disney offers the discount for goodwill and because some of those famlies might skip the restaurant if a discount wasn't offered.

 

[sconnell]

The question is if Disney is giving the discount for goodwill or if they're required to offer it under ADA rules.

If this is the question, then I agree. I don't think Disney should be required to do so. It was my impression that most people who come on the board with questions, are people who are wondering if they do.

 

[bicker]

Yes, but isn't a guest waiving privacy when he voluntarily discloses his surgery for the purpose of obtaining a discount?

I believe that private institutions aren't allowed to tie considerations to requiring people to waive their right to privacy. Vicious circle. Check out the case law. It's maddening.

NOT TRYING TO GIVE YOU A HARD TIME,

I know you said that for other folks' benefit... we always have great exchanges of ideas.

I don't know the answer and am trying to understand the logic.

I think you're getting the point, then. It's government. You've got privacy advocates, advocates for the disabled, advocates for business, consumer advocates, etc. all vying for advantage for their perspective. What we end up with doesn't serve anyone very well. I can tell you that businesses, especially, resent not being able to require proof for considerations related to medical conditions. It makes it so much more difficult to prevent abuse. If they could do that, then there might have been a lot less problems with the special considerations Disney used to give disabled guests with regard to going through the queues.

If obesity was an ADA issue guests on a strict diet might also try to get the discount. I suspect the number of gastric bypass guests is small enough to enable Disney to offer the discount as a goodwill gesture since some of those famlies might otherwise completely skip the meal.

That actually applies, in many cases, without regard to gastric bypass. Beyond that, just because Disney cannot have a policy that links gastric bypass patients with special considerations doesn't mean that individual CMs cannot offer such considerations themselves. As long as no one complains, no action is taken, and of course, there is no evidence that company committed any wrong-doing, which is of paramount importance.