*Rant* My daughter's teacher is going to fail her before school even starts...

[ksjayhawks]

It seems like your daughter has four options and she needs to decide which one is best for her, not just for now, but for the rest of high school:

1. take the F
2. drop band and enroll in something else
3. stay at home, with a friend or relative, and attend the football games
4. Can you change her ticket, if you are flying, so she can come down the 28th and go back the 1st or 2nd, so she can at least be at part of the vacation? Or if you are driving, buy her a ticket down and back for a short time frame?

Signing up for marching band, when they have local band camp and go to an overnight band camp and do competitions, is a big deal. Usually the requirements are explained ahead of time so the student and parents know what they are getting into. It doesn't matter if school has officially started or not, if those are the requirements of the class, and she signed up for it, then she has to take the consequences.

If she wants to drop the class, go speak to a counselor now and hopefully she can do that without having to take the F.

This is just a good reminder to all of us that before we, or our kids, commit to any type of activity--we need to know all the rules!

 

[kellyg403]

Here in eastern NC our first 2 football games are before the first day of school. Our first game is next friday! My dd is headed to college this year but did band all four years in HS as did 2 of her sisters. They do have a meeting prior to band camp even starting, that a parent has to attend, that outlines everything. The game itself is not all that important, its the practice of the competition piece during those first two games! As a unit they get out there and they are able to see the glitches and changes that need to be made before the first competition that is usually the 2nd or 3rd week of Sept. These kids start camp sometime around the 2nd week of July and it is quite intensive. There is A LOT of movement, music etc that is needed to be learned. And honestly, even those who start the first week of band camp sometimes don't make it to the second and end up dropping out because of the intensity. Most think 'its just marching band' but really it is SUPER competitive. From Sept to the 2nd week of Oct our kids have competitions every single Sat..after having games on friday nights.

Our band director does make it perfectly clear that once the it begins, you are committed. Period. My dd was on color gaurd and last year sprained a ligament in the arch of her foot. She had a large solo part. It couldn't be changed or given to someone else. And she didn't want to give it to someone else. She marched with crutches to the field for at least 2 games and 2 competitions, did her part on the field with her bandmates and took her crutches to get her back off the field. Very painful injury. But, she also was a competitive gymnist for a few years so playing with an injury was nothing she thought twice about.

This is a hard call for me. I understand what the band director is saying. These two games are probably the first time AS A UNIT they will be marching together. Usually in camp, the insturments are in 'pods' learning their parts, they might have run throughs together but technicallly, in my area, this is it. The first time you are officially seeing the entire band 'together'. I would also add, I have seen at competition, they are required to be on the field in their spot doing the movements, even if they forgot their instrument and are not playing or no uniform hat etc. That one missing spot can make or break their movement.

Kelly

 

[daughtersrus]

Not being from MI, I never heard about this law so I did a quick search. It appears that it is not new and has been around for several years. If this is not the OP's first year in band, she would have known that there are performances before school starts.

In my search, I came across this article. It appears that band is not covered in the law.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006/billanalysis/House/htm/2005-HLA-4803-3.htm

Response:

The aggregate benefit of the bill may not be all that significant, given that many families with school age children are either unaffected by it or are already busy in the month of August. First, the bill only addresses public schools and public school academies; it does not mandate a starting date for private schools. Second, for many students, the school year actually begins several weeks before the start of classes. According to the Michigan High School Athletic Association, practices for fall sports in the 2006-2007 school year begin in early and mid-August. Additionally, many high school marching bands hold band camp in the first weeks of August and continue to practice through the start of the school year. Third, the bill does not prohibit teacher in-service days before the holiday. While the classroom year may start after the holiday, for many families, work obligations, practices, and games necessitate that they stay home in the last weeks of August anyway.

 

[LisaNJ25]

They should now have games before the school year even starts.

My oldest will be a senior this year. He decides this year to play football. I know he wont be starting.. since this is his first year in High school. He decides yesterday to go on vacation with us so will miss practice and a scrimmage. Games do not start until the first friday when school starts.

Thankfully there are no grades involved but OP If I were you I would be contacting to Board of ED.

There is life outside of band and school sports.

 

[StacyMarie]

So knowing the schedule you couldn't have left one day later and came home 2 days earlier to accommodate the band schedule?



The football game schedule was not released to us until a month ago when I sent the initial e-mail. Believe me, I tried to get it ahead of time. I also had to basically BEG for band camp dates so she would not miss that. The dates for band camp were given to me in March, after much groveling, but at that point the football schedule had not been released and I was told it wasn't even created yet. I am not sure if that is true but that is what I was told.

When I scheduled our trip, at that point my daughter was not missing ANYTHING.

 

[StacyMarie]

Not being from MI, I never heard about this law so I did a quick search. It appears that it is not new and has been around for several years. If this is not the OP's first year in band, she would have known that there are performances before school starts.

In my search, I came across this article. It appears that band is not covered in the law.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006/billanalysis/House/htm/2005-HLA-4803-3.htm

Response:

The aggregate benefit of the bill may not be all that significant, given that many families with school age children are either unaffected by it or are already busy in the month of August. First, the bill only addresses public schools and public school academies; it does not mandate a starting date for private schools. Second, for many students, the school year actually begins several weeks before the start of classes. According to the Michigan High School Athletic Association, practices for fall sports in the 2006-2007 school year begin in early and mid-August. Additionally, many high school marching bands hold band camp in the first weeks of August and continue to practice through the start of the school year. Third, the bill does not prohibit teacher in-service days before the holiday. While the classroom year may start after the holiday, for many families, work obligations, practices, and games necessitate that they stay home in the last weeks of August anyway.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[mhsjax]

Not so at our school. Yes, they expect a LOT out of the kids and they don't put up with any crap but then again the kids know the expectations and don't goof off either. The band directors are very understanding for EMERGENCIES but would NOT be happy with a 2 week vacation and missing required performances and WOULD kick the kids out of band-or not even let them start to begin with because they can't have kids in the band that aren't willing to work or be committed. It just doesn't work.

There is nothing wrong with being committed to whatever you do. But there is a big difference in what the pp was saying about her band director and football coach and a director and coach wanting hard work and commitment.

It isn't ok for a child to have to skip a clas because the band director thinks they need more practice. If that is the case then schedule extra after schol or on weekends. That has nothing to do with putting up with crap. There are band directors and teachers and coaches that think there is nothing lese in the world other than their class or activity, and like the pp, I also know that we had some terrible problems with a band director at one of our schools and it had nothing to do with the commitment level of the kids and everything to do with him and hid god complex.

 

[mhsjax]

They should now have games before the school year even starts.

My oldest will be a senior this year. He decides this year to play football. I know he wont be starting.. since this is his first year in High school. He decides yesterday to go on vacation with us so will miss practice and a scrimmage. Games do not start until the first friday when school starts.

Thankfully there are no grades involved but OP If I were you I would be contacting to Board of ED.

There is life outside of band and school sports.

I agee and after reading the law it just confirms my belief that the govt thinks that not only should they control your kids and family life during the school year, they should also control it before school actually starts.

 

[golfgal]

They should now have games before the school year even starts.

My oldest will be a senior this year. He decides this year to play football. I know he wont be starting.. since this is his first year in High school. He decides yesterday to go on vacation with us so will miss practice and a scrimmage. Games do not start until the first friday when school starts.

Thankfully there are no grades involved but OP If I were you I would be contacting to Board of ED.

There is life outside of band and school sports.

Yes, there is life outside of band and sports and she also has the choice NOT to join the band. The WHOLE point is this girl made a COMMITMENT to the band, period. It doesn't matter when anything happens, she said she would be in the band and she is missing 2 performances that are required. Your son would be kicked off our football team for missing practices/scrimmages, starting or not. It isn't about "football" or "band" it is about teaching kids responsibility.

So knowing the schedule you couldn't have left one day later and came home 2 days earlier to accommodate the band schedule?



The football game schedule was not released to us until a month ago when I sent the initial e-mail. Believe me, I tried to get it ahead of time. I also had to basically BEG for band camp dates so she would not miss that. The dates for band camp were given to me in March, after much groveling, but at that point the football schedule had not been released and I was told it wasn't even created yet. I am not sure if that is true but that is what I was told.

When I scheduled our trip, at that point my daughter was not missing ANYTHING.

I don't believe that for one second. YOU may have only gotten the schedule but the schedule has probably been available for a year. We already know the football schedule for NEXT year here (the whole STATE does it this way). I can tell you for the next 3 years that band camp will be the last week in July for us and look up the actual dates. They have that week reserved at the college they go to for camp and their camp coincides with the town celebration so the kids can march in the town parade.

http://www.mhsaa.com/Sports/Football.aspx for helpful information

 

[lilybrooke14]

When you sign up for band, you know the rules. Choosing to ignore them is not going to get you out of the bad grade.

Marching Band starts a month before school, always. It is part of the commitment.

Not always. Maybe always for you, but not always everywhere. Ours started on the first day of school. You couldn't miss any games, and you had to show up for practices when we had them, but they didn't mess with our summers.

 

[golfgal]

Not always. Maybe always for you, but not always everywhere. Ours started on the first day of school. You couldn't miss any games, and you had to show up for practices when we had them, but they didn't mess with our summers.

True, ours started 7 weeks before school starts

 

[a1tinkfans]

In my experience, band directors are PSYCHO. My freshman year I went through pre-clinic, band camp, then came down with mono. Really really bad mono. I was out of school from Labor Day until Halloween. When I came back to band I coughed while lined up for attention. The band director started screaming at me for coughing and breaking attention. That was the day I walked off the field, into the guidance office, and removed band from my schedule.

They are not God and cannot scream at a child recovering from a serious illness for coughing! Same as failing a student for missing 2 games BEFORE school even starts is absolutely ridiculous.

I read this and then looked, lo and Behold its LI, NY.. .Good For you...it always amazes me how people assume that what a teacher says is somehow Law...its often not. Discussion and Communication is vital to all childrens education.
OP: I wish you and your daughter luck and thank you for sharing your situation so maybe others will at least be aware of the possible difficulties with Joining this type of group at their own school.
I understand commitment, I also understand that SUMMER vacation is needed for Everyone, Kids Included...the break is Needed to refresh and renew ...I can write a chapter on Summer work assignments for AP/college courses ...(the ds has no real issue its ME that does) Somehow I do not see the teacher sitting by the pool doing these endless pages of school work that they "printed off" for the last 4 years..(and best off..TWICE he never even used the "had to have done over summer work!"....But I digress...thats another topic...and before you guys start thinking me a teacher hater, its actually quite the opposite, I promise...I just resent "all" the additional time that is spent Outside school hours/Summer/vacation breaks to complete work that "should" be covered during the school day/term... IMHO!. I come from a family of teachers, so again, its just my opinion.....
Meanwhile OP, I would have contacted Central Admin if I got no response to my inquiry initially, to review with them what the "options" were, if there were any, perhaps being able to plan differently if that were even possible.....if there is "favoritism" or other issues that too can be discussed, the "requirements" should be the same for everyone......but tread lightly..... your "questioning" may be viewed as "difficult", though personally that would not deter me Its your right to question and understand the situation...is it a school policy, a district policy or 1 teacher? Again, Good Luck...I appreciate your candor...hope it works out for you/daughter......

 

[StacyMarie]

Yes, there is life outside of band and sports and she also has the choice NOT to join the band. The WHOLE point is this girl made a COMMITMENT to the band, period. It doesn't matter when anything happens, she said she would be in the band and she is missing 2 performances that are required. Your son would be kicked off our football team for missing practices/scrimmages, starting or not. It isn't about "football" or "band" it is about teaching kids responsibility.

I don't believe that for one second. YOU may have only gotten the schedule but the schedule has probably been available for a year. We already know the football schedule for NEXT year here (the whole STATE does it this way). I can tell you for the next 3 years that band camp will be the last week in July for us and look up the actual dates. They have that week reserved at the college they go to for camp and their camp coincides with the town celebration so the kids can march in the town parade.

http://www.mhsaa.com/Sports/Football.aspx for helpful information

You dont have to believe me for "one second"! I made very attempt to get the football schedule by making numerous phone calls, including to the atheletic director of our school, etc. to find out this schedule back in March when I was able to get the schedule for band camp. I was told that there was a preliminary schedule but it would not be released to the public UNTIL IT WAS FINALIZED in case changes needed to be made. I was told it was "too early" for the schedule to be released. Maybe where you come from it is different, but here that is what I was told and could care less if you believe me! I have been respectful to everybody's opinion on this thread, even thanking people for their opinions. You don't have to ruin a good conversation by being the first to get nasty.

 

[RitaZ.]

I am sorry but you guys let your school band dictate what you do with your summer. Wow, I am d=sorry but my time is mine and no one tells me what to do with it. When school officially starts then yes. Other than that too darn bad. But then again and no offense to anyone but my kids wouldn't be caught dead in band. Sorry. Not a real popular thing down here where I live
maybe up north it is different, but down here not so much.

I'm in S. FL and it's serious business in the schools in my town. Everyone knows that if your child is in band, there is a whole different schedule that applies to the students. Band camp and practices are held over the summer and cannot be missed.

Band is a serious and huge commitment. Missing a performance is not taken lightly. At DS and DD's school, any student entering 9th grade that wants to be in band must be in marching band. There is no choice in the matter.

OP, good luck handling this. Don't be surprised if this incident isn't resolved to your satisfaction.

 

[threecrazykids]

I guess I don't understand how this band director can make band camp mandatory for one, let alone the fact that it costs $350.00. Also, if he's making it a required camp he surely can't expect people to read minds as to when it is. I guess I don't understand his "withholding dates until the last minute" from parents if it's required. What is his point on that? He's just asking for trouble. And the same goes for the football schedule. If these are required dates I wouldn't think he can enforce them as required without knowing the dates, right?

 

[StacyMarie]

I read this and then looked, lo and Behold its LI, NY.. .Good For you...it always amazes me how people assume that what a teacher says is somehow Law...its often not. Discussion and Communication is vital to all childrens education.
OP: I wish you and your daughter luck and thank you for sharing your situation so maybe others will at least be aware of the possible difficulties with Joining this type of group at their own school.
I understand commitment, I also understand that SUMMER vacation is needed for Everyone, Kids Included...the break is Needed to refresh and renew ...I can write a chapter on Summer work assignments for AP/college courses ...(the ds has no real issue its ME that does) Somehow I do not see the teacher sitting by the pool doing these endless pages of school work that they "printed off" for the last 4 years..(and best off..TWICE he never even used the "had to have done over summer work!"....But I digress...thats another topic...and before you guys start thinking me a teacher hater, its actually quite the opposite, I promise...I just resent "all" the additional time that is spent Outside school hours/Summer/vacation breaks to complete work that "should" be covered during the school day/term... IMHO!. I come from a family of teachers, so again, its just my opinion.....
Meanwhile OP, I would have contacted Central Admin if I got no response to my inquiry initially, to review with them what the "options" were, if there were any, perhaps being able to plan differently if that were even possible.....if there is "favoritism" or other issues that too can be discussed, the "requirements" should be the same for everyone......but tread lightly..... your "questioning" may be viewed as "difficult", though personally that would not deter me Its your right to question and understand the situation...is it a school policy, a district policy or 1 teacher? Again, Good Luck...I appreciate your candor...hope it works out for you/daughter......

Thank you for your post! I have contacted the principal and will let everyone know the outcome, whatever way it goes.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I agee and after reading the law it just confirms my belief that the govt thinks that not only should they control your kids and family life during the school year, they should also control it before school actually starts.

Really?

The OP dd signed up for marching band voluntarily. What happened to honoring your commitments?

I just do not understand your line of thinking. Yes, I have to put up with the "government crap" in exchange for my dd attending public school. However that is the price of admission.

Do I like how schools are set up? Hell no. I have a long list of complaints.

So if you are going to play in the system, play to win. Know the rules and schedule things so you are not messing with your kids schedule too much.

I would advise OP to have her dd drop the class instead of fight with the band director. GPA trumps making a stand in band as far as I am concerned.

 

[Cindy B]

So knowing the schedule you couldn't have left one day later and came home 2 days earlier to accommodate the band schedule?



The oboe isn't marching (one other band had a bassoon solo in a show that was very nice-the soloist was one of the drum majors, she played her solo standing still alone on the field then put the bassoon away and moved on to conducting the band). The oboe player is playing from the sidelines. Our band directors are fully aware of what weather can do to instruments, that is not a concern at all. This oboe player usually plays clarinet in the band.

That is nice that it works out. It sounds like you don't have a show band.. here the show band does awards and festivals and the marching band is sort of "just there" so to speak. My son can play other instruments but his point is "why should I" if I can stay inside.. I asked him once if he wanted to do marching band and he was just like .. :why....

 

[fraggle551]

I read this and then looked, lo and Behold its LI, NY.. .Good For you...it always amazes me how people assume that what a teacher says is somehow Law...its often not. Discussion and Communication is vital to all childrens education.

That is too funny! Are you from LI also? If so you can probably figure out which band director and school im talking about.

I live close to the high school and I can actually hear pre-clinic from my yard. I want to run up to the school and tell all the kids to run far, far, away from that crazy loon of a band director.

 

[jen0610]

Yep.

The football games are really "practices" for the competitions actually.
That may vary of course depending on your band. Since my dd was in a popular Texas marching band they competed in competitions.

Yep, this is how it is for ours. The ONLY time they actually get to march on the football field, is during the pre-show and the half time show. They never get any other time on the football field. The football field is in use by the 3 football teams at the same time that band camp is in session.

Marching on a soft, mushy, wet football field is far different from marching on a hard, slick, wet asphalt parking lot. The bounce back they get with a huge concret seating area in front of them, is far different then playing with an open parking lot in front of them with little to no bounce back.

The football game shows are taped. The kids go over them, just like a football player watches game footage to see what they need to work on.