Rant about pay

[Meglen]

I don't agree with this, because this assumes that raises are keeping pace with cost of living. They aren't. OP's base hiring wage sounds like it was minimum wage from 20 years ago. Now they've finally adjusted their minimum to be more reflective of current market, and ALL employees should be given a percentage increase comparable to that first tier of new hires at the new minimum. To me, that's what would be truly fair.

Well yes it would be fair but even the op is not leaving over it. So I can only assume doing this the not fair way is saving them alot of money. Why change and do better unless they start losing the experienced workers.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't agree with this, because this assumes that raises are keeping pace with cost of living. They aren't. OP's base hiring wage sounds like it was minimum wage from 20 years ago. Now they've finally adjusted their minimum to be more reflective of current market, and ALL employees should be given a percentage increase comparable to that first tier of new hires at the new minimum. To me, that's what would be truly fair.

Cry me a river..sorry see the below comment that coincidentally I was actually typing out while you were apparently quoting me

current system penalizes older, more experienced workers.

Younger people are often taken advantaged of hired at far less than people who have been working for longer because the companies know they can pay less so no older more experiences aren't being penalized. It's only in recent years that there's been a push to raise the minimum wage (mostly Federal). Seeing it through the lens of how you do is exactly why people want to change it because the low wages are often a way to abuse newer (who are often younger) employees.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Yep, been at corporate all my life and the only way I've found to get a meaningful raise without a completely disparate amount of extra work is to leave for another employer. It's sad, but... the majority of people put up with it, and it serves their bottom line, so they keep doing it.

This is toxic, why would you work in that kind of environment?

I've received a few job offers for more than my salary at the time. I presented them to my employer respectfully and asked if there was anything they could do for me to keep me onboard. I told them I wasn't looking to leave but I had an obligation to do what was best for my family. In both cases, they gave me a raise (and, in one case, a promotion) that exceeded my offer.

They've also done across-the-board raises for 10%+ when inflation has outpaced normal internal wage growth. Smart companies know that they need to pay market rates to retain talent.

 

[Princesca]

I can't wait to see the screaming that will occur if the activists fighting for student loan forgiveness win. Hundreds of thousands of people who paid for their education or their child's education getting slapped in the face for not getting loans. It will be very entertaining...

As someone who had loans and paid them off, if there's going to be any kind of student loan forgiveness, I'm not going to be for it UNLESS it comes with meaningful reforms to keep us from getting into this place again. Many of the people I've seen with loans are really just advocating for some adjustment to their interest/interest rates. They're very predatory. And yes, people signed for these, but the degree to which students in the US gets solid financial literacy education in K-12 is virtually nil. We tell kids that college is critical to their life success, creating a 'go at all costs' mentality, but we don't give them the education they need to make wise financial choices.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I can't wait to see the screaming that will occur if the activists fighting for student loan forgiveness win. Hundreds of thousands of people who paid for their education or their child's education getting slapped in the face for not getting loans. It will be very entertaining...

Don't forget the people who didn't go to college whatsoever and pursued a trade or some other career. Student loan forgiveness is a de facto wealth transfer blue-collar workers to white-collar workers.

 

[Princesca]

people are often taken advantaged of hired at far less than people who have been working for longer because the companies know they can pay less so no older more experiences aren't being penalized. It's only in recent years that there's been a push to raise the minimum wage (mostly Federal). Seeing it through the lens of how you do is exactly why people want to change it because the low wages are often a way to abuse newer (who are often younger) employees.

I support a minimum wage increase. But I support proportional increases across the board at all pay levels. What you are saying hasn't been true in my experience. I've worked at 7+ corporations, most of them Fortune 100 or above, and it is quite common for new hires to come in below but VERY close to what more tenured employees are making.

 

[Meglen]

They have alot if rules for the student loan forgiveness they are proposing.

 

[MillauFr]

I used to work in state government but had to leave after 22 years. The benefits kept getting worse and worse and the pay was always terrible. You just need to take a risk and jump ship. Don't let them pay you less than you are worth.

 

[Princesca]

This is toxic, why would you work in that kind of environment?

I've received a few job offers for more than my salary at the time. I presented them to my employer respectfully and asked if there was anything they could do for me to keep me onboard. I told them I wasn't looking to leave but I had an obligation to do what was best for my family. In both cases, they gave me a raise (and, in one case, a promotion) that exceeded my offer.

They've also done across-the-board raises for 10%+ when inflation has outpaced normal internal wage growth. Smart companies know that they need to pay market rates to retain talent.

I have worked for very few of those types of companies. In my early career, it was more common to periodically market-adjust jobs across the board. But in the past 10-15 years, I haven't found it to be the case. My last job switch was a lateral financial move, but a trade off for MUCH less stress and responsibility. My former company countered with an insane raise offer. I had been asking for a raise for years, probably about half of what they came back with when I said I was leaving. And every year I was told there wasn't money in the budget. So I finally saw the writing on the wall and found another job. The fact that in less than 24 hours they came back with an offer that was double what I had traditionally been asking for, no problem, was really disheartening and I didn't take it, because I felt they weren't trustworthy or honest with me. And they obviously intended to just suck me dry til I left. Sadly, this has been the experience for the others that were in the department, and countless friends' anecdotal experience. It was indeed totally toxic. Yet this company is regarded as a 'Great Place to Work'... I don't get it.

Also, as I was decided whether to stay at the new offer or not, the research I did indicated that most of the time you burn too many bridges with a resignation and the majority of people who stay are gone (whether by their choice or the company's) within a year of accepting the offer. So that factored into my decision as well.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I've received a few job offers for more than my salary at the time. I presented them to my employer respectfully and asked if there was anything they could do for me to keep me onboard. I told them I wasn't looking to leave but I had an obligation to do what was best for my family. In both cases, they gave me a raise (and, in one case, a promotion) that exceeded my offer.

With my husband's prior engineering firm that would be considered unprofessional what you did. It would be the you weren't looking to leave part, that's akin to blackmail. Asking for a raise no biggie but presenting other job offers with no intention of leaving yeah not professional and it would have also probably made it easier to make the decision to cut you if need be or consider the bridge burned should you end up doing so.

Presenting offers when you considering leaving is considered kosher. Several years back they were more willing to match or exceed but not quite as much in recent years (probably pandemic related due to profits/projects not there in as much supply). When my husband presented his prior employer with 2 (then a 3rd joined) offers they came back and said they would give him a 10% raise (when a normal one was around 2-5% average being 3-4%) in a few months when raise time was there. They did the same to another guy months prior so my husband was prepared.

He ended up leaving though on very good terms. The raise he would have gotten had he stayed would have only been about half the pay difference (when including increase in health insurance costs with the new company) so not enough to entice him to stay although the pay was only part of it, his career trajectory and timing of that was more.

With his prior company there was a main competitor in the area and it wasn't all that uncommon for a ping pong to occur between the two with employees going back and forth. But the difference between what you advised you did and what they did is they actually left and had intentions of leaving should their requests not be met (or at least were very open to doing so).

 

[seven dwarfs]

I think this is a huge issue that is going to be happening across most states. With the min wage being raised, those making more, if they also don't get a raise, it closes a gap. We are seeing issues where people are leaving construction jobs (especially young entry level) and going to work at Walmart. My husband is a teacher and he has kids that are pulling groceries and being paid $18.00. Why work in the heat/cold being an HVAC helper for $13.00? It's a big problem. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I have worked for very few of those types of companies. In my early career, it was more common to periodically market-adjust jobs across the board. But in the past 10-15 years, I haven't found it to be the case. My last job switch was a lateral financial move, but a trade off for MUCH less stress and responsibility. My former company countered with an insane raise offer. I had been asking for a raise for years, probably about half of what they came back with when I said I was leaving. And every year I was told there wasn't money in the budget. So I finally saw the writing on the wall and found another job. The fact that in less than 24 hours they came back with an offer that was double what I had traditionally been asking for, no problem, was really disheartening and I didn't take it, because I felt they weren't trustworthy or honest with me. And they obviously intended to just suck me dry til I left. Sadly, this has been the experience for the others that were in the department, and countless friends' anecdotal experience. It was indeed totally toxic. Yet this company is regarded as a 'Great Place to Work'... I don't get it.

Another thing that's a fairly recent development is the hyper-focus that HR departments have taken towards pay equity. They're much less likely to make individual wage adjustments than they used to be, even for top performers. They want as little as possible left up to management discretion and instead are more likely to just pay everyone benchmark rates for a given title.

 

[robinb]

Wage compression sucks. It happened to me at my very first job and it happened to me this year at what will be my last job.

My first job was at a McDonalds. I had been there over a year and had received a small raise or two along the way. Then, the minimum wage was raised and everyone in the store (except management) made the same no matter how long they had been there. The owner of the store saw no reason to continue to reward experienced employees with a higher wage. So, at 17 I quit my first job .

My current job requires a Bachelors degree. As such, the starting wage was significantly higher than prevailing wages for low skilled workers when I started it 4 years ago. It's a full time job for 4-5 months of the year and then I'm off for the rest of the year. Every year they invite me back to work and they give me a small raise. This year's labor shortage created a surge in wages for low skilled workers and the company was forced to raise introductory wages to attract qualified new hires. But, you guessed it, they did not raise everyone's wages in a commiserate manner. Nope. After 4 years in an organization I make the same as a brand new hire even though my production is twice theirs.

Hrumph.

I enjoy my job but I don't have to do it. I do my job for some "mouse money" and to pass the time on cold winter days. In the past, I was happy as long as I felt I was a respected and appreciated member of the team. My current wages say otherwise. I accepted the job this year knowing that my wage had been compressed but I didn't think it would bother me as much as it has. So, this will be my last year with the company and it's on them. They can go ahead and pay twice as much for 2 new hires to do the same job I would have done for a buck or two more per hour. Penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I support a minimum wage increase. But I support proportional increases across the board at all pay levels. What you are saying hasn't been true in my experience. I've worked at 7+ corporations, most of them Fortune 100 or above, and it is quite common for new hires to come in below but VERY close to what more tenured employees are making.

The difference between what was being talked about in the OP, your comments and my comments was a sense of being owed a raise just because others got one. But the reason why others got one makes a big difference, in this case it was that the minimum was raised. The OP has complained in the past about low pay and now that the low pay is being increased...but just not for them and is now a point of contention for them. To me that changes the dynamic of the conversation. And for years the OP was making, per their words, $2.50 more than they were. If you're in support for a minimum wage increase you would see that for years these employees were paid less than others typically for no other reason they the employer (in this case the state) could. Years of lost wages for that reason.

If this wasn't about a minimum wage my responses would be different for the most part. But it's about the lowest the employer (in this case the state) is paying these people. Consider that these people aren't necessarily being paid for what their worth is either..they are just being paid the barest minimum, in this case that came with a nice increase but they are still being paid the minimum.

 

[mjkacmom]

There is always the risk of alienating existing employees when there is a partial across the board raise.

The local school district gave one time bonuses to only teachers then had to give the one time bonuses to all employees due to the push back. The bus drivers, janitors, kitchen staff, para pros, all threatened to quit because obviously the school board saw them as less important.

I can't wait to see the screaming that will occur if the activists fighting for student loan forgiveness win. Hundreds of thousands of people who paid for their education or their child's education getting slapped in the face for not getting loans. It will be very entertaining...

I doubt that will happen, and considering students are only offered $27,000 in federal loans total, which pays for one year instate, no one is getting a free education. Many students have private loans which can never be forgiven.

 

[MillauFr]

With my husband's prior engineering firm that would be considered unprofessional what you did. It would be the you weren't looking to leave part, that's akin to blackmail. Asking for a raise no biggie but presenting other job offers with no intention of leaving yeah not professional and it would have also probably made it easier to make the decision to cut you if need be or consider the bridge burned should you end up doing so.

It isn't blackmail. It is just business. If you get known as someone is not willing to leave you will get lowballed and paid less.

 

[dez1978]

IIRC you work for corrections, and if IIRC you complained in the past about the pay (and the conditions). Respectfully while you say you're grateful you don't necessarily come off that way. Other people got a raise because the minimum was raised nothing more nothing less. You're stuck on comparing the new difference. You didn't get screwed IMO. If this was merit based I would have been more on your side.

I remember when I got a "raise" when Federal Minimum Wage was raised when I was in college. I was making less than $6 an hour and got a raise to like what was it $6.75 or $7?? Then it was raised to $7.25 an hour. I sure wouldn't have had sympathy towards someone crying foul that suddenly I got a raise for no reason (because it wasn't really a raise it was the legal requirement to pay me this new minimum instead of the old) and now they weren't making much more than me. They had plenty of time making a lot more than me anyhow.

I think the advice in the past for you was to push on your side for high pay in general for corrections facilities. Or leave I think was something that was mentioned.

We don't have merit raises. We haven't in years. We get occasional across the board raises (like all employees get 2%) every few years. I am not complaining that the lowest got a pay raise at all. I am complaining that the gap that was there becasue it was earned due to increased job responsibilities and such is not there anymore. If there are going to be increased job duties, more complex work, then the harder job makes more than the job that is less responsibility. Otherwise, why would you take on more work and more headache?

 

[dez1978]

I support a minimum wage increase. But I support proportional increases across the board at all pay levels. What you are saying hasn't been true in my experience. I've worked at 7+ corporations, most of them Fortune 100 or above, and it is quite common for new hires to come in below but VERY close to what more tenured employees are making.

At the state brand new people start making EXACTLY the same as those who've been here 20 years. If there is a COL raise, it's for brand new people too and those are the only raises we get. I've been with the state for 21 years and there has never been a longevity raise in that time. Corrections got one, about 6 months after I left to go to another agency, but that was agency specific. And really for most state agencies (in this state) you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who isn't at the bottom of the pay range for their job class.

The difference between what was being talked about in the OP, your comments and my comments was a sense of being owed a raise just because others got one. But the reason why others got one makes a big difference, in this case it was that the minimum was raised. The OP has complained in the past about low pay and now that the low pay is being increased...but just not for them and is now a point of contention for them. To me that changes the dynamic of the conversation. And for years the OP was making, per their words, $2.50 more than they were. If you're in support for a minimum wage increase you would see that for years these employees were paid less than others typically for no other reason they the employer (in this case the state) could. Years of lost wages for that reason.

If this wasn't about a minimum wage my responses would be different for the most part. But it's about the lowest the employer (in this case the state) is paying these people. Consider that these people aren't necessarily being paid for what their worth is either..they are just being paid the barest minimum, in this case that came with a nice increase but they are still being paid the minimum.

Those people were also being paid several $ above what our state min wage is/was. In reading your argument you seem to think that all job classes should be paid the same regardless of responsibility or duties. And you are right, I have complained about low wages. But I never said that those wages shouldn't be increased for these jobs. I also said that if those were increased then everyone would need to be increased as well.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It isn't blackmail. It is just business. If you get known as someone is not willing to leave you will get lowballed and paid less.

Def. can be industry different. For my husband's engineering industry I can attest to it being something at least here with multiple engineering companies that if you're just going to them saying here's what others will pay me but I wasn't actually planning to leave I'm just fishing for more money they aren't going to look at you favorably and you'll get a reputation for that. Just go in and ask for a raise they have no problem with that or if you're truly looking around go in with offers of other companies but don't leverage another company's salary when you have no intention or desire to leave. They would rather you just be upfront about wanting a raise than hide it in the midst of what some other company is currently offering.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

It’s a perfect example of why minimum wage should be based on your education, experience and skill and responsibility level of your position and not whether it’s a living wage for you.

The problem with that is taxpayers pick up the slack when wages get too low for someone to live on. It's not fair to expect tax payers to subsidize wages while a company rakes in profits off the labor.

I have worked for very few of those types of companies. In my early career, it was more common to periodically market-adjust jobs across the board. But in the past 10-15 years, I haven't found it to be the case. My last job switch was a lateral financial move, but a trade off for MUCH less stress and responsibility. My former company countered with an insane raise offer. I had been asking for a raise for years, probably about half of what they came back with when I said I was leaving. And every year I was told there wasn't money in the budget. So I finally saw the writing on the wall and found another job. The fact that in less than 24 hours they came back with an offer that was double what I had traditionally been asking for, no problem, was really disheartening and I didn't take it, because I felt they weren't trustworthy or honest with me. And they obviously intended to just suck me dry til I left. Sadly, this has been the experience for the others that were in the department, and countless friends' anecdotal experience. It was indeed totally toxic. Yet this company is regarded as a 'Great Place to Work'... I don't get it.

Also, as I was decided whether to stay at the new offer or not, the research I did indicated that most of the time you burn too many bridges with a resignation and the majority of people who stay are gone (whether by their choice or the company's) within a year of accepting the offer. So that factored into my decision as well.

I've also heard of management slowly clawing back a portion of those big increases in future years to give other employees better raises. You might get ahead for a bit with a competitor's offer but it's a short term play. The company has shown you who they are so you should believe them.

I think this is a huge issue that is going to be happening across most states. With the min wage being raised, those making more, if they also don't get a raise, it closes a gap. We are seeing issues where people are leaving construction jobs (especially young entry level) and going to work at Walmart. My husband is a teacher and he has kids that are pulling groceries and being paid $18.00. Why work in the heat/cold being an HVAC helper for $13.00? It's a big problem. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

A rising tide lifts all boats. It's been fun watching all these companies complain about not being able to hire for $10/hour, part time, with random work schedules and no benefits. Maybe it's time to treat workers like human beings?

We don't have merit raises. We haven't in years. We get occasional across the board raises (like all employees get 2%) every few years. I am not complaining that the lowest got a pay raise at all. I am complaining that the gap that was there becasue it was earned due to increased job responsibilities and such is not there anymore. If there are going to be increased job duties, more complex work, then the harder job makes more than the job that is less responsibility. Otherwise, why would you take on more work and more headache?

Sounds like you did so direct the question towards your nearest mirror.

It doesn't sound like your wages are that high so what are the handcuffs keeping you from exploring other opportunities? My local Wendy's is paying $16.25/hour and I'm sure others are paying even more if I looked. If you're making $15.41 I hope there are other benefits keeping you there.