Racial Slur at school....

[Robinrs]

I know I will now get the flames thrown at me but as someone who thinks speech should be as unrestricted as possible I would think it should be left to the parents to punish the child at home. With very few exceptions I don't think any speech should be limited, even mean speech. If the speech is used to incite a riot, which a slur alone is not, it should not be punished by any arm of the government including education. As a pp stated, we have become far too sensitive about words and should go back to the "sticks and stones" days.

This issue came up in another thread about the people of the park page and that it should be shut down because it is mean. While I agree it is mean being mean is a side effect of free speech. If it is slanderous or libelous it should be taken down via the courts.

Any word is just a word. Words alone cause no damage. They only have the power they are given by us and if we don't give them any power, as I don't, then none will hurt or offend you.

Now, that doesn't mean that the parents shouldn't take action, and I would if I had a kid call someone a racial slur or gay slur, but that is because I as the parent choose to do it. I'm sure this isn't the popular opinion but I believe in the freedoms we are granted and am willing to take the bad with the good. I have very libertarian beliefs and I am not one of those people that only holds onto their beliefs when it is convenient or suites them.



Yes, in that case the crime is the assault and the word is used to show intent. When speech moves past speech into action the rules change. It is the action in this case that caused harm, not the word in isolation. I don't think speech should be absolute and think slander or hate speech is punishable but hate speech IMO has to go beyond simple word choice into intending actual harm as in a rally or public declaration of intent to do harm because of race, religion, sexual preference, etc.

No flames, you've stated your point on other threads. Your point means nothing to a woman who has to go up to her son's school because a boy with a gun called her son a slur. Try living it one time and feel what a word can do to YOUR child. Wait, I don't think you've ever been there.

MOOT.

 

[java]

I don't know. I might have, I might not have. It wouldn't have left an impression.

Because you were not the ONLY one of a particular race. When a child is dealing with it daily. Being called horrible names not just the regular teasing. Degrading names- It leaves an impression. It is harrassment(bullying) and I am glad my school will not allow it.

The job of the school is to provide a safe learning enviornment for all children. That is why I am glad the boy in my daughter's class got suspended. And it wasn't a racial slur used against my child- but her friend. Her sitting in my home crying about it. Questioning why she is the way she is. That broke my heart. No child should feel that way. So yes it has in impact.

 

[testifyoncruises]

I know I will now get the flames thrown at me but as someone who thinks speech should be as unrestricted as possible I would think it should be left to the parents to punish the child at home. With very few exceptions I don't think any speech should be limited, even mean speech. If the speech is used to incite a riot, which a slur alone is not, it should not be punished by any arm of the government including education. As a pp stated, we have become far too sensitive about words and should go back to the "sticks and stones" days.

This is so right on!

As a lesbian Jewish woman, I have suffered through a whole range of "hateful" insensitive words hurled at me in my lifetime. I have even had them thrown at me and my DP in front of our DD. Based on the facts of what the OP (who has not been back to this thread)wrote, I stand by what I said. In this ONE incident it should be ignored by the school. I write this as someone whose religion was used by one man to incite others into terrible and evil violence.

As usual, the what'-if and jump to conclusions crowd went way off the deep-end into what might happen instead of focusing on the facts as presented by the OP of what actually DID happen. First off, I do not believe in the term hate speech or hate crime. A crime is a crime. Using a word preceding an assault does not make it any more of an assault. I disagree on those who have made laws to that effect. It gets into thought police territory.

A slur is meant as a put down. What if suddenly we decided to punish someone for calling another an "AIG president" or "health insurance company chairman"?

Finally, I find it quite ironic and a bit hypocritical that a few of those who want the school to punish a student for using an insulting slur have been throwing around insults such as "idiot" and "troll" themselves.

 

[ugadog99]

The job of the school is to provide a safe learning enviornment for all children.

Teacher here....and this is why we, as a school system, MUST punish for degrading and bullying behavior of any sort.

 

[kinntj]

This is so right on!



A slur is meant as a put down. What if suddenly we decided to punish someone for calling another an "AIG president" or "health insurance company chairman"?

I have a problem with this because this isn't what the mainstream kid is. That wouldn't make sense in schools. A child is still developing a sense of self, so the rationalizing that an adult does, isn't necessarily what a child is going to do. Your job is not who you are. The color of your skin, the religion you practice, those you love...is.

 

[pilesoflaundry]

They don't do anything about it here. I'm sure they are supposed to but it seems like you have to pretty much kill another child to actually get any punishment at this stupid school.

Everything is "let's talk about it ok and you won't do it again? Ok go back to class" and that's it. It really bugs me. My child has been physically hurt by other kids and they didn't do much of anything.

 

[Cornhusk]

I never said I didn't have a racial slur against me, I just don't remember if I did. I also don't remember being born but I was.

As for the bolded part, no, it's not. You may choose to perceive it differently but it really isn't. If it makes you feel better you can call me a racial slur right here on a public forum and I would ask the moderators to leave it up. I don't want your freedom of speech infringed either and I really wouldn't care.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. See, everyone wins.

Again, because this seems to get lost in the shuffle, I don't use these slurs, I just don't want to dictate which words are allowed and which are not. Words are just words, the only power they have we give them. I am talking about a public school. I think most people would say that religion shouldn't be taught in a public school because it violates some interpretations of the first amendment. How is it that the exact same amendment is then ignored when talking about free speech? Selective enforcement of the constitution is far more offensive to me then any word.

Ah, see that is the thing. When I agreed to be a part of the Boards I had to agree NOT to use a racial slur. Therefore, if I would call you those names then I would be punished JUST like at a school. A parent agreed to send their child to a public institution that puts into effect the rules and stupulations against racial slurs, if that is broken the child is punished. The parent agreed (as I agreed on here) and therefore, shouldn't get riled up if their kid gets into trouble for calling another a slur. Even if you asked the moderators, I am pretty sure they would not adhere to that.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mickey's Minion]

I homeschool, but I would hope absolutely none.

If you homeschool, how come you were sitting in a teacher's lounge recently, flirting with other teachers, getting ready to do a speech on career day?

Today I was waiting in a teacher's lounge to start giving a speech during career day and this one cute teacher started talking to me. Before I knew it, we were kind of flirting.

I am madly in love with my DP, but it was kind of fun to be wanted and to flirt back. Of course nothing will ever come of it, but I had a spring in my step. When did you last flirt with someone?

If you don't think words are powerful, I would do as another poster suggested and bone up on history before you begin that unit with your child.

Also, bone up on civics and learn more about what speech is really protected by the first amendment. Both you and Firedancer need to study that a bit more. Slander has long been upheld as not being protected by the First Amendment.

 

[daughtersrus]

There has been some debate here lately on this very subject.

There was an incident where a student used the N word against another student. The student was suspended. The very same day another student used the N word but he was not suspended.

The first two students are of different races. The last two students are the same race.

If the school is going to react to one with punishment, shouldn't they react to all with the same punishment?

 

[just4today]

As others have pointed out, a child's ability to tune it out and let it roll off is not always as well-developed as an adult's, and any comparison of school to bullying that might take place on a message board is apples to oranges. A message board is something you can step away from. As long as children are required to be in school, it's the school's obligation to provide each child with a safe learning environment free of harrassment. Having to suffer through racial slurs at school IS harrassment, especially when the child has no choice but to sit there and take it.

 

[Robinrs]

This is so right on!

As a lesbian Jewish woman, I have suffered through a whole range of "hateful" insensitive words hurled at me in my lifetime. I have even had them thrown at me and my DP in front of our DD. Based on the facts of what the OP (who has not been back to this thread)wrote, I stand by what I said. In this ONE incident it should be ignored by the school. I write this as someone whose religion was used by one man to incite others into terrible and evil violence.

As usual, the what'-if and jump to conclusions crowd went way off the deep-end into what might happen instead of focusing on the facts as presented by the OP of what actually DID happen. First off, I do not believe in the term hate speech or hate crime. A crime is a crime. Using a word preceding an assault does not make it any more of an assault. I disagree on those who have made laws to that effect. It gets into thought police territory.

A slur is meant as a put down. What if suddenly we decided to punish someone for calling another an "AIG president" or "health insurance company chairman"?

Finally, I find it quite ironic and a bit hypocritical that a few of those who want the school to punish a student for using an insulting slur have been throwing around insults such as "idiot" and "troll" themselves.

There is a BIG difference between a racial slur and call what it is what it is.

 

[Robinrs]

There has been some debate here lately on this very subject.

There was an incident where a student used the N word against another student. The student was suspended. The very same day another student used the N word but he was not suspended.

The first two students are of different races. The last two students are the same race.

If the school is going to react to one with punishment, shouldn't they react to all with the same punishment?

Do you HONESTLY believe it's the same thing?

I call my friend a B word, we laugh. If a guy on the street called her one... well, the OPPOSITE would happen.

It's the INTENT.

 

[NHdisneylover]

what would the punishment be at your school?

This is from 1 kid to another kid.

I have no idea what it would be at the kids' school. Overall we have seen that there is MUCH less oversight by the teachers of any free time and that amazingly there are fewer problems. My kids do attend a school with students representing (currently) 86 countries and I know they work very hard on acceptance as a general thing.

As to what I think should be done--it varies hugely on teh situation and there should not be one hard nad fast rule. A young child may use the word simply not understanding it fully and parroting a parent, older sibling, etc. Sometimes people use some words not realizing they are no longer acceptable, or not acceptable in the region/country if it was perhaps acceptable where they came from. Maybe it was not used with mean intent. In those cases, I think just talking to teh student privately and possibly an apology would be suffecient. In other cases (or repeated cases) dententions or suspensions may well be appropriate.

The OP asked: The OP did not ask what would the punishment be at home and as such I answered her question the way I feel in this situation. I am going to assume this is a public school and as such a representative of the state. The first amendment is pretty clear and I paraphrase
Most legal scholars would agree this definition is used to mean: To cut short; curtail. As described by the OP, this is 1 student to 1 student. This is NOT a case of yelling FIRE in a crowded auditorium.

I think for the state or a representative of the state to punish speech or a phrase or a harsh word no matter how much one may or may not be offended by that speech is dangerous and should never be allowed or encouraged.

I think a person that calls another a name is small and weak and they seek power. I think the best course of action is to ignore that speech or phrase I or others may find offensive thereby not giving the person who used it the attention and power they so seek.

Personally I ignore everyone who refers to me as a troll. I am pretty offended by it, but I don't acknowledge or answer those who do. Same thing to me.

So yes I stand by my original statement, I would hope the school would be intelligent about this issue and did nothing in the situation as described by the OP.

Thank you for eventually getting around to explain your position. First off I have to say it strikes me as rather ironic given that you recently started a thread in which you were incensed by someone else using their free speech at a restruraunt to tell you that they felt your DD should not be using the restroom alone.
Anyway, we will have to agee to disagree here. As others have already pointed out, free speech can and is often limited in schools. Because others essentially have to be there (yes, you can homeschool or send your children to private school if you haev the means to do either), then their right to not be harrassed trumpd the right to free speech. If the kid wants to use a racial slur at home, at the park, at the library, etc--somewhere that the target of the slur does not have to be then that is one thing. But since a stundet is essebntially forced to go to school, then forcing that student to deal with racial slurs is not okay.

when my dd was in kindergarten, she came home and asked me what a Ni&&er is?I said what?!!!! And DD said to me that " so&so said that Mary (subbing name here) is a ni&&er and I am a ni&&er lover cause I am her friend"

Nothing was done in school about this at all. But I had the abillity to be calm long enough to find out the phone number and call the parents to let them know that I did not appreciate their child using this language in front of my dd and that they should teach him all men are created equal.

I am sorry this happend to your DD and her friend. Did speaking to the parents help I would guess that a kidnergartener most likely got those words and ideas from her parents This would be a case where I would hope the teacher or principal would speak with the child and let her know such words are not allowed in school. If it continued after that I think some sort of punishment, and letting parents know that the child is using language that is not allowed at school, would be appropriate.

I know I will now get the flames thrown at me but as someone who thinks speech should be as unrestricted as possible I would think it should be left to the parents to punish the child at home. With very few exceptions I don't think any speech should be limited, even mean speech. If the speech is used to incite a riot, which a slur alone is not, it should not be punished by any arm of the government including education. As a pp stated, we have become far too sensitive about words and should go back to the "sticks and stones" days.

This issue came up in another thread about the people of the park page and that it should be shut down because it is mean. While I agree it is mean being mean is a side effect of free speech. If it is slanderous or libelous it should be taken down via the courts.

Any word is just a word. Words alone cause no damage. They only have the power they are given by us and if we don't give them any power, as I don't, then none will hurt or offend you.

Now, that doesn't mean that the parents shouldn't take action, and I would if I had a kid call someone a racial slur or gay slur, but that is because I as the parent choose to do it. I'm sure this isn't the popular opinion but I believe in the freedoms we are granted and am willing to take the bad with the good. I have very libertarian beliefs and I am not one of those people that only holds onto their beliefs when it is convenient or suites them.



Yes, in that case the crime is the assault and the word is used to show intent. When speech moves past speech into action the rules change. It is the action in this case that caused harm, not the word in isolation. I don't think speech should be absolute and think slander or hate speech is punishable but hate speech IMO has to go beyond simple word choice into intending actual harm as in a rally or public declaration of intent to do harm because of race, religion, sexual preference, etc.

In the first thing I bolded, the difference is that the people in the WalMart thread are not forced to go and look at that thread. They can avoid it all together. A school child, on the other hand, is forced to go to school and to class 180 days per year in most districts. I am a big believer in free speech--but I also agree with numerous court rulings which limit where such speech can occur--a school building is not an appropriate place for it.

As to the second item: It is wonderful that you as an adult do not let words bother you. I try to be the some way. However, a young child hearing these thigns may well be bothered. At the time and with long lasting reprecussions as well. Words alone DO cause damage--many, many studies prove this.

 

[robinb]

The lack of one in your previous posts is the reason you're perceived as a "troll". You knew your words would stir up controversy and it did. I guess you got what you wanted.

No, Robin. Her previous posts have proved her to be a "troll". She does nothing but stir up trouble and say insane and wacky things to get people riled up. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... like minkydog says ... it's a

An Oppositional-Defiant troll

Anyway ... now that I have fed the troll her today and given her the attention she craves, on to the OP. I have no idea what the punishment is at my DD's school. I assume there is some punishment for slurs. I'll have to dig out the information booklet.

 

[Robinrs]

.



As to the second item: It is wonderful that you as an adult do not let words bother you. I try to be the some way. However, a young child hearing these thigns may well be bothered. At the time and with long lasting reprecussions as well. Words alone DO cause damage--many, many studies prove this.

It's called verbal abuse.

It's caused suicides, lack of self esteem which spirals into a living hell for a person who suffered it and everyone around them.

It can't hurt? Ignore it? Easier said than done.

 

[daughtersrus]

Do you HONESTLY believe it's the same thing?

I call my friend a B word, we laugh. If a guy on the street called her one... well, the OPPOSITE would happen.

It's the INTENT.

How does the school determine intent?

Both cases involved students that weren't getting along. Just because the last two were the same race, should the school assume that the student meant it as a joke?

 

[FireDancer]

Also, bone up on civics and learn more about what speech is really protected by the first amendment. Both you and Firedancer need to study that a bit more. Slander has long been upheld as not being protected by the First Amendment.

I never said all speech should be protected. I think that protection should be as broad as possible but not absolute. I said words shouldn't be banned and that I stand by. To say word A (no matter what the word is) is allowed while word B (not matter what the word is) is not ok is where my problem lies.

I don't think the first amendment can't have some restriction. Communicating classified information, slander (or libel if written), speech meant to incite a riot, speech used to show intent in the prosecution of or prevention of a crime, and many other things are and should have restriction (as cautiously as legally possible).

Oh, and just because someone has an opinion different then yours it doesn't make them a troll. This is still true if they happen to have an opinion in the minority.

 

[Robinrs]

No, Robin. Her previous posts have proved her to be a "troll". She does nothing but stir up trouble and say insane and wacky things to get people riled up. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... like minkydog says ... it's a

Amen, Robin.

I rarely let them get to me but this one ... man.

I'll know better the next time.

 

[hrh_disney_queen]

Once again, you are proving your inadequency. Whereas you may not have had a racial slur against you, there are many who have and it hurts. It seriously hurts, you can stick and stone it. Whatever. However, a racial slur is really something different then teasing. This of course is your "opinion" yet it is based on what little knowledge you have. The "free speech" concept has been used so many times but there is actually a point to when a slur can be a verbal harrassment.A child should have every right in school to not have to be called the N word or any other term that describes race. Schools do not allow for young people to make fun of one another and guess what, this is under their control. Simple. Cold cut, it is even in a school's handbook and if a parent does not want to oblige by this, then guess what? They don't have to put their child in that institution. It hurts when someone uses a derogatory term to describe your race and I hope you never have to go through that experience.

I would think that in school, using a racial slur would enter into the realm of bullying-and therefore also into the zero tolerance range that most schools observe.

Being a WASP, I have never been called a racial slur. But I KNOW that I wouldn't want to be called some of the awful things people call each other. And I would expect the schools to put a stop to it immediately, if one of the students chose to use them. Sticks and stones? Well I bet anyone who has been on the receiving end of the name calling could tell you that names can hurt you.


Children do not have 1st amendment rights in school. The school has every right to keep order. This is why if you ever go into an elementary or MS, you will see kids changing classes and moving through the hallways in single file lines and in silence. If the school wants the kids to shut their mouths the entire day except for classroom work and lunch, guess what? They can do it!

 

[Cornhusk]

I would think that in school, using a racial slur would enter into the realm of bullying-and therefore also into the zero tolerance range that most schools observe.

Being a WASP, I have never been called a racial slur. But I KNOW that I wouldn't want to be called some of the awful things people call each other. And I would expect the schools to put a stop to it immediately, if one of the students chose to use them. Sticks and stones? Well I bet anyone who has been on the receiving end of the name calling could tell you that names can hurt you.


Children do not have 1st amendment rights in school.

That is exactly the point I was trying to convey. They may be just "words" for some but for the one on the receiving end, it is hurtful and for it to be ignored in school, a place where a child should be protected, is disgraceful.