Quick question - "unschooling"..

[C.Ann]

But see that poster is referencing FL. That I've been made aware of, we have only our own moral compass to be accountable to here in Indiana.

I have a friend that has / is homeschooling 4 children. 2 of the children have graduated, having never spent a day in a public school. They were never questioned by anyone. I have another friend and while her children are still in elem. grades, have never spent even one day in a public school. They also have never been questioned.

Most parents who homeschool are doing it so their kids will get a BETTER education. (yes, of course, there is the odd lazy bum out there, but most of them have their kids in public schools. They are the ones who forget to send lunch money, never make sure the kid does his homework and are otherwise neglectful). Unschooling, if done right, isn't like that at all.

However, the idea that "they" need to verify anything rubs a lot of homeschoolers the wrong way.

Who are "they" and what is considered progress? (I'm not attacking you, I'm playing devil's advocate).

In my state, there is no "they." I do happen to *choose* to have my DD take standardized tests because I want her to learn to take such tests, to be better prepared for college entrance exams, plus I want to see how *I* am doing. I do NOT teach to the test the way the public schools do. I do not have to have my child take these tests. If my child were not college-bound, I don't think I'd bother with it. (and not every child -no matter how they are educated - is college material).

I am required to teach her the 4 basic subject she would get in public school: English, history, math, and science, plus PE. I choose to also teach her electives; in public school she would only have one, but I teach six. I have to document attendence. I choose to give tests and grade them, but I don't have to. Some parents don't. For example, if a child knows the material but doesn't test well, a test is not a true assessment of their learning.

Sorry, I think that was a bit of a tangent.

C. Ann, unschooling is just one method of homeschooling. The child is still being taught the basic subjects, but in a way that is specifically tailored to his personal interests. Sort of like how in college, a student can choose courses that appeal to them. It doesn't mean they sit on the couch and watch tv. A concerned parent would be horrified for the child to complete their education and not be ready to become a productive citizen in society.

For an Amish child, that would mean knowing things that *I* have no clue about, but would be important for them. I don't know anything about how the Amish educate their children, but my guess is, even if they are sent to formal schools, there is a lot of learning going on in the home!

Well - now I'm confused again..

To the best of my knowledge (or at least as far as I've gotten in my research to date), there currently are Amish communities in at least 24 states (with Indiana having several of the larger ones)..

So how can there be state laws that mandate the Amish send their children to school (actual Amish owned "buildings" with an Amish or Mennonite teacher) through the 8th grade (under the threat of legal action if they don't) when "unschooling" or "homeschooling" without any "accountability" (ie: testing; proof of progress; etc.) is allowed for non-Amish?

Or - perhaps that has changed now - if they are living in a state that allows unschooling or homeschooling??

Looks like I'm going to have to dig a little deeper here, because I won't leave this portion of my research until I have the answers that I'm looking for.. (I'm OCD-ish like that - lol.. Have to have all of the correct info before I wander off into the next segment of my research..)

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll do some more googling and perhaps try to word my searches in a different way - yet still specific to the Amish..

Thanks!

 

[Belle0101]

Well - now I'm confused again..

To the best of my knowledge (or at least as far as I've gotten in my research to date), there currently are Amish communities in at least 24 states (with Indiana having several of the larger ones)..

So how can there be state laws that mandate the Amish send their children to school (actual Amish owned "buildings" with an Amish or Mennonite teacher) through the 8th grade (under the threat of legal action if they don't) when "unschooling" or "homeschooling" without any "accountability" (ie: testing; proof of progress; etc.) is allowed for non-Amish?

Or - perhaps that has changed now - if they are living in a state that allows unschooling or homeschooling??

Looks like I'm going to have to dig a little deeper here, because I won't leave this portion of my research until I have the answers that I'm looking for.. (I'm OCD-ish like that - lol.. Have to have all of the correct info before I wander off into the next segment of my research..)

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll do some more googling and perhaps try to word my searches in a different way - yet still specific to the Amish..

Thanks!

I would question where the information is coming from that says the Amish have to "... send their children to school (actual Amish owned "buildings" with an Amish or Mennonite teacher) through the 8th grade (under the threat of legal action if they don't)

Perhaps it lies with Indiana law. As I mentioned earlier, for all intents and purposes, Indiana considers a homeschool to be a Private School. For example, I did not "withdraw" my son from school. I "transferred" him to a Private School. When he graduates he will receive a diploma issued from my school. I don't have a name for it just yet. I think I may name it after my great-grandmother. She was very important to me.

Expanding on that, my Amish friend who homeschools ... the building they teach in is Amish owned. She is Amish and she and her husband own it. "It" being their home. I've also seen them doing their lessons in the store they own. The children are being taught by an Amish teacher. She and her husband are Amish. In its simplest form, they have satisfied the above.

 

[laurie31]

Well - now I'm confused again..

To the best of my knowledge (or at least as far as I've gotten in my research to date), there currently are Amish communities in at least 24 states (with Indiana having several of the larger ones)..

So how can there be state laws that mandate the Amish send their children to school (actual Amish owned "buildings" with an Amish or Mennonite teacher) through the 8th grade (under the threat of legal action if they don't) when "unschooling" or "homeschooling" without any "accountability" (ie: testing; proof of progress; etc.) is allowed for non-Amish?

Or - perhaps that has changed now - if they are living in a state that allows unschooling or homeschooling??

Looks like I'm going to have to dig a little deeper here, because I won't leave this portion of my research until I have the answers that I'm looking for.. (I'm OCD-ish like that - lol.. Have to have all of the correct info before I wander off into the next segment of my research..)

It's late now, but tomorrow I'll do some more googling and perhaps try to word my searches in a different way - yet still specific to the Amish..

Thanks!

Very interesting. I will be interested to hear what you learn. I can't imagine how there could be laws requiring Amish children to attend school in a physical school building. (all children are required to attend a school - home, church, public, private, or otherwise. )

This would be like saying all Catholics have to send their kids to Catholic school.

Surely that would violate the separation of church and state pretty blatantly. One's religious choices should not affect how the state says you can educate your kids.

Maybe the laws date back to the days when homeschooling was not an accepted option, and it was more of an exemption to allow the Amish to send their children to their own private schools rather than the public school? Just thinking out loud (or typing - lol).

This is all very interesting to me. All I know about the Amish I learned from the movie Witness. (Harrison Ford...sigh...)

Oh - as Lisa pointed out, YOU are unschooling. See how much you learn, and how passionate you are about learning, when it's a subject that interests you? Your project could count for English and also social studies.

 

[Belle0101]

More info:
"Wisconsin V. Yoder Case decided in 1972 by the U.S. Supreme Court, which held that Amish children could be exempted from compulsory school-attendance beyond the 8th grade; the Amish (see under Mennonites ) community's interest in maintaining a simple way of life, which it saw threatened by higher education, outweighed the state's interest in schooling through the 10th grade. The Supreme Court had not previously exempted religious groups from such laws, and it stressed that the 300-year Amish tradition was crucial to its decision."

What I'm NOT finding is any particular state that so egregiously discriminates against the Amish as to define what a school is or isn't specifically and only for them. I would be surprised to find such an example.

 

[Nayan]

So do you have to give your kids test to show they progressed or just show some work? The reason I ask is because, what if the parent does the work for the child just to show they learned something?

I am not saying this is how you do it, just a question about how they verify that your child is progressing.

I do a lot OF work to homeschool, but I do not DO the work . There are a few states that require testing and in Florida it is an option, but it's much easier (and much less expensive!) to pull out the portfolio and have the teacher ask the child questions relating to the work done.

 

[Magpie]

Just to mix things up a bit - I live in Ontario, Canada. There is an Amish community here, but the only law around homeschooling in my district is that children must be "receiving an appropriate education".

There is no accountability for homeschoolers, no one keeping tabs on them. The only time the law gets involved is when there is evidence of other sorts of neglect or abuse. When I withdrew my children from school, I merely informed the office and that was it. I had no more contact with the system until I chose to put them back in.

As one trustee put it (with regards to a different situation, but it speaks to the overall philosophy), "If they're not in our schools, they're not our concern."

 

[golfgal]

This is what I was referring to.. No set guidelines - no curriculum in place.. How can they do this? For homeschooling - from what I understand - to a certain degree there are guideline you have to follow (correct?) and things (tests maybe?) that are required by the state.. So - how can someone unschool - as described above (and very much like the segment I saw on tv) without running into problems in regards to state minimum requirements?



The state didn't make an allowance for the Amish - it was the 1972 Supreme Court ruling - which resulted in their children being able to leave school upon completion of the 8th grade without their parents being jailed and/or fined..

I tried to google "unschooling" to find the answers I'm looking for, but couldn't seem to find it..

My question is - if the Amish must send their children to school through 8th grade - how can someone "unschool" (allow their children to learn "whatever they want") "whenever they want"?

Does that make the question a little more clear?

Thanks for the replies thus far..

Many states really don't have any oversight for homeschooling. In our state the parent has to turn in grades to their home district-that's it-no proving the grades, no accountability for what they learned, nothing. It is really sad actually.

 

[Magpie]

Many states really don't have any oversight for homeschooling. In our state the parent has to turn in grades to their home district-that's it-no proving the grades, no accountability for what they learned, nothing. It is really sad actually.

It's only sad if you believe that your government has primary responsibility for educating your children, and that education has to be enforced to government standards using the force of law to make everyone fall into line.

It's a question of whose kids are they, I suppose. And thankfully there's no evidence that homeschoolers (at least locally) have been abusing their kids educationally, to the point where an outside authority needs to step in and take control.

 

[golfgal]

It's only sad if you believe that your government has primary responsibility for educating your children, and that education has to be enforced to government standards using the force of law to make everyone fall into line.

It's a question of whose kids are they, I suppose. And thankfully there's no evidence that homeschoolers (at least locally) have been abusing their kids educationally, to the point where an outside authority needs to step in and take control.

It has nothing to do with governmental control and everything to do with accountability to the students. I am sure most homeschoolers think they are doing a great job, many are, many are not. I always find it so interesting that the homeschoolers get so defensive when it is suggested that there be some sort of oversight-something as simple as taking a standardized test administered by someone other then a parent to make sure your child is on track. If you are doing your job right, there is nothing to worry about.

 

[MiniGirl]

Many states really don't have any oversight for homeschooling. In our state the parent has to turn in grades to their home district-that's it-no proving the grades, no accountability for what they learned, nothing. It is really sad actually.

In MN, do publically-schooled children have to "prove" their grades as you are suggesting the homeschooled children should or is the grade the teacher turned accepted at face value?

 

[golfgal]

In MN, do publically-schooled children have to "prove" their grades as you are suggesting the homeschooled children should or is the grade the teacher turned accepted at face value?

Simple answer, yes. The child takes a test or does an assignment and they get that back with a grade on the paper=pretty difficult process I know. Then every year they take standardized tests to track progress. I know the testing isn't the best but it is something.

 

[barkley]

our state has pretty stringent laws on "schooling"-which they define as public, private, or homebased. but i suspect, that it would'nt be difficult to 'unschool' a child b/c the reality is that unless someone makes a complaint to dss or the school district a person lives in it's not like there's some kind of monitoring of which homes include children and what their 'schooling' status is.

i say this b/c, we moved into our home with our 2 school aged children 3 1/2 years ago-to this day we've never been contacted by any person or agency to determine if our children are being schooled.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

It has nothing to do with governmental control and everything to do with accountability to the students. I am sure most homeschoolers think they are doing a great job, many are, many are not. I always find it so interesting that the homeschoolers get so defensive when it is suggested that there be some sort of oversight-something as simple as taking a standardized test administered by someone other then a parent to make sure your child is on track. If you are doing your job right, there is nothing to worry about.

That last line is actually a pretty weak argument for oversight and a dangerous line to cross for risk of losing liberty and personal freedoms.

If you are doing a good job ______, why not let the government check on you.

Why not let them pop in and make sure you don't have a meth lab, are operating a brothel, or letting your 2yo watch violent television? After all---why get so defensive if you know you are doing everything correctly? You should have nothing to hide. The government should have the right to check up on you to make sure you are living your life to their standards. And if you aren't, they should have the right to tell you how to live even if what you do and how you do it isn't against the law.

I'm sorry that (based on prior postings if I am remembering correctly) that you know so many homeschooling families that are doing a horrible job and the government let's them.

I'm always amazed at the number of families a non homeschooling family knows that helps them formulate their opinions that more oversight is necessary.

As with anything--it is always someone who doesn't take their role seriously and it makes the rest of us look bad.

I know we have had a tough school year this year. We didn't finish, but given my obstacles, we did pretty well. We will just pick it up in the fall. Oh---and my oldest did complete standardized testing and had no deficiencies. So even mandated testing did not reveal that we had a difficult time administering the year. I am not afraid of the government. I have nothing to hide. That doesn't mean that I am willing to sacrifice my children to be property of the state and having them tell me how I should parent. That includes how they should be educated.

I don't get why anti-homeschoolers are so defensive of their choice to give up their rights. But I don't question your right to make that choice. For many--it is a perfect choice. For many it is not. You as the parent gets to decide what is best for your child as I or any other parent will choose what is best for theirs. Everybody wins.

 

[ilovesugar]

Portfolio will show progress commensurate with the child's ability.

Child should know more this year than they did last year.

Last year child learned sounds...this year they learned to read and this is he level they read at.

Next year, barring any learning difficulties that would be flagged, child should be able to read more difficult books.


Just a sample of what it was for my second child (for 1 subject) .kindergarten and now first grade.

Of course I have now switched states. But regulations are almost the same between FL and VA. (VA just follows a set deadline and requires documentation of immunization and verification of high school diploma or higher. I did have to provide curriculum info, but it was extremely generic. I listed subjects, but not what we would actually learn in those subjects.)

Instead of a portfolio review...you can have the child take a standardized test and submit scores or a certified teacher review of those scores that demonstrate proficiency.

Thanks for explaining that to me. I honestly don't know anyone who homeschool's so I don't know anything about it. I am not trying to put what you do down, just trying to find out more information about it so that if I do meet someone that homeschool's, I understand more about it.

I'm not an unschooler, though I do homeschool. I just had to chuckle about the what if the parent does the work part. That can happen with any kids. How many school projects are partially or mostly completed by parents ?

The testing issue could probably become controversial. My kids progress every year in their education, but we aren't required to test. I certainly know how much they've learned . I believe the requirements vary by state.

Yes, your right. Any parent can do their childs homework (and some even do) but a parent cannot follow that child into school and do their work for them there, or take their tests. A teacher knows when a parent does the homework because the child is not performing at the same level in the class. When you are the parent and the teacher, nobody knows but you. That is all that I was saying.

Most parents who homeschool are doing it so their kids will get a BETTER education. (yes, of course, there is the odd lazy bum out there, but most of them have their kids in public schools. They are the ones who forget to send lunch money, never make sure the kid does his homework and are otherwise neglectful). Unschooling, if done right, isn't like that at all.

However, the idea that "they" need to verify anything rubs a lot of homeschoolers the wrong way.

Who are "they" and what is considered progress? (I'm not attacking you, I'm playing devil's advocate).

In my state, there is no "they." I do happen to *choose* to have my DD take standardized tests because I want her to learn to take such tests, to be better prepared for college entrance exams, plus I want to see how *I* am doing. I do NOT teach to the test the way the public schools do. I do not have to have my child take these tests. If my child were not college-bound, I don't think I'd bother with it. (and not every child -no matter how they are educated - is college material).

I am required to teach her the 4 basic subject she would get in public school: English, history, math, and science, plus PE. I choose to also teach her electives; in public school she would only have one, but I teach six. I have to document attendence. I choose to give tests and grade them, but I don't have to. Some parents don't. For example, if a child knows the material but doesn't test well, a test is not a true assessment of their learning.

Sorry, I think that was a bit of a tangent.

C. Ann, unschooling is just one method of homeschooling. The child is still being taught the basic subjects, but in a way that is specifically tailored to his personal interests. Sort of like how in college, a student can choose courses that appeal to them. It doesn't mean they sit on the couch and watch tv. A concerned parent would be horrified for the child to complete their education and not be ready to become a productive citizen in society.

For an Amish child, that would mean knowing things that *I* have no clue about, but would be important for them. I don't know anything about how the Amish educate their children, but my guess is, even if they are sent to formal schools, there is a lot of learning going on in the home!

I was not trying to negate what you do. Like I said, I don't know anyone who homeschool's so I truly do not understand how it works. I asked what I would consider a logical question based on what I know. There is no need to get defensive over it.

However, at some point your child is going to have to report to someone (a boss) and they will have to do things like the boss wants it done. The boss will judge if they are doing a good job or not. Unfortunately, you cannot escape reporting to "them" at some point. Do you know what I am saying?

I do a lot OF work to homeschool, but I do not DO the work . There are a few states that require testing and in Florida it is an option, but it's much easier (and much less expensive!) to pull out the portfolio and have the teacher ask the child questions relating to the work done.

I get that and it makes sense.

 

[emh1129]

That last line is actually a pretty weak argument for oversight and a dangerous line to cross for risk of losing liberty and personal freedoms.

If you are doing a good job ______, why not let the government check on you.

Why not let them pop in and make sure you don't have a meth lab, are operating a brothel, or letting your 2yo watch violent television? After all---why get so defensive if you know you are doing everything correctly? You should have nothing to hide. The government should have the right to check up on you to make sure you are living your life to their standards. And if you aren't, they should have the right to tell you how to live even if what you do and how you do it isn't against the law.

I'm sorry that (based on prior postings if I am remembering correctly) that you know so many homeschooling families that are doing a horrible job and the government let's them.

I'm always amazed at the number of families a non homeschooling family knows that helps them formulate their opinions that more oversight is necessary.

As with anything--it is always someone who doesn't take their role seriously and it makes the rest of us look bad.

I know we have had a tough school year this year. We didn't finish, but given my obstacles, we did pretty well. We will just pick it up in the fall. Oh---and my oldest did complete standardized testing and had no deficiencies. So even mandated testing did not reveal that we had a difficult time administering the year. I am not afraid of the government. I have nothing to hide. That doesn't mean that I am willing to sacrifice my children to be property of the state and having them tell me how I should parent. That includes how they should be educated.

I don't get why anti-homeschoolers are so defensive of their choice to give up their rights. But I don't question your right to make that choice. For many--it is a perfect choice. For many it is not. You as the parent gets to decide what is best for your child as I or any other parent will choose what is best for theirs. Everybody wins.

 

[emh1129]

What criteria does a parent engaging in "unschooling" have to meet in order for it to satisfy the mandatory educational requirements in each state?

Thanks!

It varies from state to state. Some have no oversight at all, others have strict guidelines that must be met.

In CT, it is 'suggested' that you file a Notice of Intent yearly. After filing that, you meet with the principal of the school your child would otherwise be attending. You just show them your portfolio of what you've done, subjects that you've covered, etc. They can offer tips or ask general questions, but that's about it. This is all just suggested, though. It is not required. Some homeschooling families choose to do this and others prefer not to.
We do not file the NOI.
CT is a very homeschool-friendly state

 

[Nayan]

Most Homeschoolers don't want the intrusion of Government oversight because of what it would come with. I understand the point you were trying to make, about reporting to your boss at work and him/her telling you whether you're doing a good job or not. I get it and I am sure for the most part that others understand that too. But the Government doesn't go to you're job, check you're work and tells you either good job or sorry you have to start your career over because it's not up to our standards.

If the Government began regulating Homeschooling like it does public schools there's be huge issues. Many Homeschool because of religious beliefs. If the Government stepped in they could say that parents can no longer use curriculum that is religious. They could say that parents can only use certain things. They could say all children have to be tested and if they fail they will be put in public school (this has happened btw). There would be no more freedom to learn at one's own pace, it would be school-at-home.

Many of us have fought long and hard to have the freedom to teach at home, even going to jail for it in the early years. I would hate to see all of the hard work that myself and others have done to ensure that parents have the ability to Homeschool be taken away.

 

[ilovesugar]

Most Homeschoolers don't want the intrusion of Government oversight because of what it would come with. I understand the point you were trying to make, about reporting to your boss at work and him/her telling you whether you're doing a good job or not. I get it and I am sure for the most part that others understand that too. But the Government doesn't go to you're job, check you're work and tells you either good job or sorry you have to start your career over because it's not up to our standards.
If the Government began regulating Homeschooling like it does public schools there's be huge issues. Many Homeschool because of religious beliefs. If the Government stepped in they could say that parents can no longer use curriculum that is religious. They could say that parents can only use certain things. They could say all children have to be tested and if they fail they will be put in public school (this has happened btw). There would be no more freedom to learn at one's own pace, it would be school-at-home.

Many of us have fought long and hard to have the freedom to teach at home, even going to jail for it in the early years. I would hate to see all of the hard work that myself and others have done to ensure that parents have the ability to Homeschool be taken away.

Unless you have my job! I am an accountant for a large company and at least once a year the IRS comes in to see if I am doing my job correctly. If I am not, you can bet I would need to find a new job.

But seriously, I understand what your saying. It may not be my choice of how to do things, but I am not going to judge you because you choose a different way. That's what makes the world go round.

 

[golfgal]

Most Homeschoolers don't want the intrusion of Government oversight because of what it would come with. I understand the point you were trying to make, about reporting to your boss at work and him/her telling you whether you're doing a good job or not. I get it and I am sure for the most part that others understand that too. But the Government doesn't go to you're job, check you're work and tells you either good job or sorry you have to start your career over because it's not up to our standards.

If the Government began regulating Homeschooling like it does public schools there's be huge issues. Many Homeschool because of religious beliefs. If the Government stepped in they could say that parents can no longer use curriculum that is religious. They could say that parents can only use certain things. They could say all children have to be tested and if they fail they will be put in public school (this has happened btw). There would be no more freedom to learn at one's own pace, it would be school-at-home.

Many of us have fought long and hard to have the freedom to teach at home, even going to jail for it in the early years. I would hate to see all of the hard work that myself and others have done to ensure that parents have the ability to Homeschool be taken away.

So how is it then that there are so many schools with a religious curriculum around the country

 

[C.Ann]

Okay - first of all, this thread is becoming both political and religious - both of which are against DIS guidelines - and I was hoping I could get an answer to my question without it going in that direction.. I would really appreciate it if we could discuss this without breaking any rules..

Thanks!

-----------------------------

Secondly, it was late last night, I was tired from doing research all day, and I didn't word one of my responses correctly..

The Amish were never told that they had to send their children to an "Amish" school - owned by the Amish - and taught by either an Amish or Mennonite teacher.. I was giving an example of what they chose to do after they were forced to comply with the law regarding educating their children through the 8th grade.. My mistake - I should have been a little clearer - but as I said, it was late and I was tired.. Let's see if I can do any better today - LOL..

So - do we know that the Amish must "educate" their children at least through the 8th grade - or are we still up in the air on that? What I have found thus far indicates that's a given - in order to be in compliance..

Maybe they choose to send their children to their local one-room Amish school simply because the parents don't have the time to homeschool (grades 1 thru 8) while also working farms without the modern time-saving machinery and such that the "English" have? Is that a logical thought?

I did find a link today about "compulsory" education (for everyone - not just the Amish) this morning, but it's still kind of vague on accountability, actual laws, etc.. I'll see if I can post a link - if anyone is interested in giving it a quick glance to help me out here..

I'll have to do it in my next post though as I have to track it down again..

Thanks for the help so far..