Quick question - "unschooling"..

[C.Ann]

While doing my research on the Amish in regards to schooling - and the "Wisconsin vs Yoder" Supreme Court decision in 1972 that allows the Amish to leave school upon completion of the 8th grade - it set me to wondering..

Awhile back I saw a segment on tv about "unschooling" - which appears to be quite different from "homeschooling"..

What criteria does a parent engaging in "unschooling" have to meet in order for it to satisfy the mandatory educational requirements in each state?

From what I have uncovered so far (in regards to the Amish) there are still some states (even given the Supreme Court ruling) that attempt to threaten/intimidate the Amish (and some Old Order Mennonite groups) to send their children to high school - yet "unschooling" is allowed..

Anyone have an info on the unschooling aspect? I would like to compare that to what I'm learning about the Amish/Mennonite schooling (subjects taught; passing grades; ending their formal education at the completion of the 8th grade; the vocational schooling that is required in some states; etc.)..

I'll check back later..

Thanks!

 

[Acklander]

not all states allow unschooling. So you would have to look at each state to see what their requirements are for homeschooling.

 

[Good Ol Gal]

back when I homeschooled I had a friend who "unschooled".

This was her theory:

kids learned when they are ready
kids learn more lessons in life
when they are ready to read, they will ask for help in doing it
math skills come from wanting to have money and needing to earn/spend it
science comes from natural curiosity, same with social studies

her kids were allowed to study anything they had interest in, when it interested them

My kids begged me to unschool them!

 

[MiniGirl]

back when I homeschooled I had a friend who "unschooled".

This was her theory:

kids learned when they are ready
kids learn more lessons in life
when they are ready to read, they will ask for help in doing it
math skills come from wanting to have money and needing to earn/spend it
science comes from natural curiosity, same with social studies

her kids were allowed to study anything they had interest in, when it interested them

My kids begged me to unschool them!

But the OP was wanting to know more about the legal aspects of it -- not whether or not it is a viable way of schooling. Plus, I highly doubt the amish allow any of their children to just laze around and only do things when they want to.

 

[Mrs. Charming]

But the OP was wanting to know more about the legal aspects of it -- not whether or not it is a viable way of schooling. Plus, I highly doubt the amish allow any of their children to just laze around and only do things when they want to.

We live right on the border of Amish country (seriously, there's horse doodoo on the side of the road a fwe minutes up from our house) and they don't seem to let their kids lay around, ever. They're a very different kind of culture, the kids always seem to be doing something helpful and productive. I don't know how to say this properly so I'm just going to say it-- these kids don't need a high school education for what they're doing, as long as they stay with the Amish community. They're very simple people. They do wonderful construction though, if we were ever to build a house, we'd definitely hire an Amish company!

I can't help but believe unschooling is an option here in PA, or at least the state made some sort of allowance for the Amish.

 

[castleview]

back when I homeschooled I had a friend who "unschooled".

This was her theory:

kids learned when they are ready
kids learn more lessons in life
when they are ready to read, they will ask for help in doing it
math skills come from wanting to have money and needing to earn/spend it
science comes from natural curiosity, same with social studies

her kids were allowed to study anything they had interest in, when it interested them

My kids begged me to unschool them!

Okay…if I left it up to my kids to decide when they were ready, they'd still be sitting on the couch watching a Phineus & Ferb marathon.

 

[C.Ann]

back when I homeschooled I had a friend who "unschooled".

This was her theory:

kids learned when they are ready
kids learn more lessons in life
when they are ready to read, they will ask for help in doing it
math skills come from wanting to have money and needing to earn/spend it
science comes from natural curiosity, same with social studies

her kids were allowed to study anything they had interest in, when it interested them

My kids begged me to unschool them!

This is what I was referring to.. No set guidelines - no curriculum in place.. How can they do this? For homeschooling - from what I understand - to a certain degree there are guideline you have to follow (correct?) and things (tests maybe?) that are required by the state.. So - how can someone unschool - as described above (and very much like the segment I saw on tv) without running into problems in regards to state minimum requirements?

We live right on the border of Amish country (seriously, there's horse doodoo on the side of the road a fwe minutes up from our house) and they don't seem to let their kids lay around, ever. They're a very different kind of culture, the kids always seem to be doing something helpful and productive. I don't know how to say this properly so I'm just going to say it-- these kids don't need a high school education for what they're doing, as long as they stay with the Amish community. They're very simple people. They do wonderful construction though, if we were ever to build a house, we'd definitely hire an Amish company!

I can't help but believe unschooling is an option here in PA, or at least the state made some sort of allowance for the Amish.

The state didn't make an allowance for the Amish - it was the 1972 Supreme Court ruling - which resulted in their children being able to leave school upon completion of the 8th grade without their parents being jailed and/or fined..

I tried to google "unschooling" to find the answers I'm looking for, but couldn't seem to find it..

My question is - if the Amish must send their children to school through 8th grade - how can someone "unschool" (allow their children to learn "whatever they want") "whenever they want"?

Does that make the question a little more clear?

Thanks for the replies thus far..

 

[Nayan]

I am an Unschooler (although I really dislike that term) so I'll try to help out a bit. Each state has a requirement for Homeschoolers, some are very lax, some not. Unschooling, or child-led learning is just one method of Homeschooling and as long as all of the legal requirements are met anyone can do it. In Florida, for example, if you are registered with the County once a year you meet with a teacher who verifies your child has made advances in learning (you keep a portfolio, or as I call it our big 'what we did this year book') and the teacher signs the form for you to submit to the county. It actually doesn't matter how the child was taught, all that needs to be shown is that progress was made for the year. I am not sure about other states and what they require, but I do know that many parents from many states do Unschool and meet the legal requirements to do so.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Unschoolers are homeschoolers that still must adhere to state laws as any other homeschooler would. In some states, that may mean more work/record keeping to coorelate unschooled material to what the state requires. So if a state requires science...an unschooler would document what is construed as science.

A true unschooler will have an educated child. They aren't being lazy or failing in their duties. Any unschooler that I have known that explained what they did...it sounded a little like Montessori education...follows the child's interest while guiding them at their pace to an educational goal. Say the child liked horses--they lived and breathed it...the unschooling parent might teach the child reading through a series of horse stories, study science by learning anything and everything about horses and related to horses. Unit studies operate that way a bit.

The Amish student that you read abut...may never take a conventional high school math class or chemistry or physics...but they still will gain an education that is geared toward their lives in Amish adulthood. Learning woodworking, construction, animal husbandry, homemaking. The list can go on, but I am tired.

And should they decide during that period where the youth can live like the English that they wish a more English education---community colleges do offer foundational work that repeats subject matter taught in high school that they likely could still do well in.

I know many traditionally schooled (public/private) and homeschool students who graduate high school with an associate's degree in hand. Essentially, they did not take high school level coursework in most of high school. They took college level course work instead. Theoretically---they stopped their education after roughly 10th grade and then went to college.

Feasibly---that could be possible for a post-8th grade unschooled Amish student as well.

Unschooling does not equal no education.

 

[Luvchefmic]

You always post the most interesting things...keeps my mind active See if this helps:

Unschooling is one of the many methods to home school children; it is an educational philosophy.

Home school laws for each state can be found at:
http://www.hslda.org/

it brought up a few articles when I went to that site and did a search for unschooling a friend of mine did this in GA and I have to agree with what a PP said regarding the quality of the education her DD especially really gained a lot this way

 

[ilovesugar]

I am an Unschooler (although I really dislike that term) so I'll try to help out a bit. Each state has a requirement for Homeschoolers, some are very lax, some not. Unschooling, or child-led learning is just one method of Homeschooling and as long as all of the legal requirements are met anyone can do it. In Florida, for example, if you are registered with the County once a year you meet with a teacher who verifies your child has made advances in learning (you keep a portfolio, or as I call it our big 'what we did this year book') and the teacher signs the form for you to submit to the county. It actually doesn't matter how the child was taught, all that needs to be shown is that progress was made for the year. I am not sure about other states and what they require, but I do know that many parents from many states do Unschool and meet the legal requirements to do so.

So do you have to give your kids test to show they progressed or just show some work? The reason I ask is because, what if the parent does the work for the child just to show they learned something?

I am not saying this is how you do it, just a question about how they verify that your child is progressing.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So do you have to give your kids test to show they progressed or just show some work? The reason I ask is because, what if the parent does the work for the child just to show they learned something?

I am not saying this is how you do it, just a question about how they verify that your child is progressing.

Portfolio will show progress commensurate with the child's ability.

Child should know more this year than they did last year.

Last year child learned sounds...this year they learned to read and this is he level they read at.

Next year, barring any learning difficulties that would be flagged, child should be able to read more difficult books.


Just a sample of what it was for my second child (for 1 subject) .kindergarten and now first grade.

Of course I have now switched states. But regulations are almost the same between FL and VA. (VA just follows a set deadline and requires documentation of immunization and verification of high school diploma or higher. I did have to provide curriculum info, but it was extremely generic. I listed subjects, but not what we would actually learn in those subjects.)

Instead of a portfolio review...you can have the child take a standardized test and submit scores or a certified teacher review of those scores that demonstrate proficiency.

 

[Belle0101]

I can't speak for the resst of the U.S. but here in Indiana a Homeschool is considered by the state to be a Private School.

Attendance is generally 180 days and we are not bound by any requirements set forth by statute number ... regarding curriculm or content of educational programs. We do not have to participate in standardized testing.

Here's a page that will link you to the requirements of other states:
http://www.youcanhomeschool.org/starthere/info.asp

Here's an article by someone who gives quite a lengthy discussion of her opinion on the idea of unschooling in comparison to homeschooling.
http://www.mhea.com/features/unschool.htm

I call us homeschoolers. My DS was in a public school and we made the decision to teach him at home. He was not doing well in school. Since bringing him home to learn he has blossomed. He has always had an aversion to reading. With learning at home I have guided him to a book of my choice and he LOVES it and the author. That being Ray Bradberry's Farenheit 451. That's English.

For Social Studies he has a very strong interest in WWII. We have been able to spend months on that via books and TV specials. Next week we will be in DC and plan to visit the WWII Memorial. We're hoping that some vets will be there that he can personally speak too. In public school he had no interest in Social Studies at all.

Does any of that help? I'm just sort of stuck for an answer. Maybe the answer depends on the regulations of that particular state. Like I mentioned, here I can teach what I want when I want. Now I will be careful to follow the basic studies required in Public School - math, science, English, Social Studies - but within those I will choose the specifics I want.

I do know an Amish family that homeschools and she has invited us to join the co-op she belongs too. We're not Amish but I'm going to look into because they may have some courses that I haven't considered yet. I do know she said they offer sewing and while I think it's generally good to have a basic idea of sewing - buttons, hems, etc, - I can't see my 15yr wanting to sit in with a bunch of girls. Then again, he is 15.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I also wanted to note--with my rising second grader...she was a bit slower to read than other kids of a similar grade level. We did 2 visits with an eye doctor because she really wanted to learn but struggled and there were no learning issues. It was decided that there might be some issue in the "brain" part of vision. She was given a mild reading glasses prescription so that it would get her eyes to relax. Things started clicking and her pace sped up in learning how to read. This was document by the certified teacher. My daughter did learn commensurate with her ability. A problem was noted by me, it was addressed and progress was made even though it took longer for her to get to this point than the average 7yo. (I've gotten a few dirty looks when they couldn't understand why she couldn't read yet back when we got the eye doctor involved.)

 

[skater]

So do you have to give your kids test to show they progressed or just show some work? The reason I ask is because, what if the parent does the work for the child just to show they learned something?

I am not saying this is how you do it, just a question about how they verify that your child is progressing.

I'm not an unschooler, though I do homeschool. I just had to chuckle about the what if the parent does the work part. That can happen with any kids. How many school projects are partially or mostly completed by parents ?

The testing issue could probably become controversial. My kids progress every year in their education, but we aren't required to test. I certainly know how much they've learned . I believe the requirements vary by state.

 

[C.Ann]

I am an Unschooler (although I really dislike that term) so I'll try to help out a bit. Each state has a requirement for Homeschoolers, some are very lax, some not. Unschooling, or child-led learning is just one method of Homeschooling and as long as all of the legal requirements are met anyone can do it. In Florida, for example, if you are registered with the County once a year you meet with a teacher who verifies your child has made advances in learning (you keep a portfolio, or as I call it our big 'what we did this year book') and the teacher signs the form for you to submit to the county. It actually doesn't matter how the child was taught, all that needs to be shown is that progress was made for the year. I am not sure about other states and what they require, but I do know that many parents from many states do Unschool and meet the legal requirements to do so.

Thank you so much! The portion of your post that I bolded is exactly the type of information I was looking for - if there was any sort of "accountability" in place - that would show that a child was achieving a certain level of learning each year.. If there wasn't, then it would not make sense that the Amish are mandated to send their children to school through the 8th grade (or face legal issues) if non-Amish were "unschooling" and not being held accountable in terms of showing progress..

You've answered my question perfectly.. I'm just about done with my research in terms of the Amish schooling - and now will be moving on to researching other aspects of their lifestyles - broken down by "subjects" and which Orders follow which guidelines (different types of dress and Kapps; electric/no electric/propane gas; transportation; weddings and other special occasions; home furnishings; etc.) - as well as genetics; health issues; hereditary illnesses; etc..

This is really turning out to be a very interesting project..

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

For what it is worth....you are unschooling. Granted you aren't a kid anymore...bu what you are doing is a good example of unschooling. You found an appealing subject, read many fiction books and expanded to research the non-fiction aspects of the Amish.

Thank you so much! The portion of your post that I bolded is exactly the type of information I was looking for - if there was any sort of "accountability" in place - that would show that a child was achieving a certain level of learning each year.. If there wasn't, then it would not make sense that the Amish are mandated to send their children to school through the 8th grade (or face legal issues) if non-Amish were "unschooling" and not being held accountable in terms of showing progress..

You've answered my question perfectly.. I'm just about done with my research in terms of the Amish schooling - and now will be moving on to researching other aspects of their lifestyles - broken down by "subjects" and which Orders follow which guidelines (different types of dress and Kapps; electric/no electric/propane gas; transportation; weddings and other special occasions; home furnishings; etc.)..

This is really turning out to be a very interesting project..

 

[Belle0101]

Thank you so much! The portion of your post that I bolded is exactly the type of information I was looking for - if there was any sort of "accountability" in place - that would show that a child was achieving a certain level of learning each year.. If there wasn't, then it would not make sense that the Amish are mandated to send their children to school through the 8th grade (or face legal issues) if non-Amish were "unschooling" and not being held accountable in terms of showing progress..

You've answered my question perfectly.. I'm just about done with my research in terms of the Amish schooling - and now will be moving on to researching other aspects of their lifestyles - broken down by "subjects" and which Orders follow which guidelines (different types of dress and Kapps; electric/no electric/propane gas; transportation; weddings and other special occasions; home furnishings; etc.) - as well as genetics; health issues; hereditary illnesses; etc..

This is really turning out to be a very interesting project..

But see that poster is referencing FL. That I've been made aware of, we have only our own moral compass to be accountable to here in Indiana.

I have a friend that has / is homeschooling 4 children. 2 of the children have graduated, having never spent a day in a public school. They were never questioned by anyone. I have another friend and while her children are still in elem. grades, have never spent even one day in a public school. They also have never been questioned.

 

[laurie31]

So do you have to give your kids test to show they progressed or just show some work? The reason I ask is because, what if the parent does the work for the child just to show they learned something?

I am not saying this is how you do it, just a question about how they verify that your child is progressing.

Most parents who homeschool are doing it so their kids will get a BETTER education. (yes, of course, there is the odd lazy bum out there, but most of them have their kids in public schools. They are the ones who forget to send lunch money, never make sure the kid does his homework and are otherwise neglectful). Unschooling, if done right, isn't like that at all.

However, the idea that "they" need to verify anything rubs a lot of homeschoolers the wrong way.

Who are "they" and what is considered progress? (I'm not attacking you, I'm playing devil's advocate).

In my state, there is no "they." I do happen to *choose* to have my DD take standardized tests because I want her to learn to take such tests, to be better prepared for college entrance exams, plus I want to see how *I* am doing. I do NOT teach to the test the way the public schools do. I do not have to have my child take these tests. If my child were not college-bound, I don't think I'd bother with it. (and not every child -no matter how they are educated - is college material).

I am required to teach her the 4 basic subject she would get in public school: English, history, math, and science, plus PE. I choose to also teach her electives; in public school she would only have one, but I teach six. I have to document attendence. I choose to give tests and grade them, but I don't have to. Some parents don't. For example, if a child knows the material but doesn't test well, a test is not a true assessment of their learning.

Sorry, I think that was a bit of a tangent.

C. Ann, unschooling is just one method of homeschooling. The child is still being taught the basic subjects, but in a way that is specifically tailored to his personal interests. Sort of like how in college, a student can choose courses that appeal to them. It doesn't mean they sit on the couch and watch tv. A concerned parent would be horrified for the child to complete their education and not be ready to become a productive citizen in society.

For an Amish child, that would mean knowing things that *I* have no clue about, but would be important for them. I don't know anything about how the Amish educate their children, but my guess is, even if they are sent to formal schools, there is a lot of learning going on in the home!

 

[PaulaSue]

We live right on the border of Amish country (seriously, there's horse doodoo on the side of the road a fwe minutes up from our house) and they don't seem to let their kids lay around, ever. They're a very different kind of culture, the kids always seem to be doing something helpful and productive. I don't know how to say this properly so I'm just going to say it-- these kids don't need a high school education for what they're doing, as long as they stay with the Amish community. They're very simple people. They do wonderful construction though, if we were ever to build a house, we'd definitely hire an Amish company!

I can't help but believe unschooling is an option here in PA, or at least the state made some sort of allowance for the Amish.

It is done around here. I know many friends who do it.