Question .. please don’t bash here

Discussion in 'disABILITIES!' started by coastermom, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. coastermom

    coastermom <font color=red>Proud Redhead<br><font color=peach

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    Thank you all .. I have a note for the local theme park and yes they are asking for one but with out what is actually wrong it just has to state that you can't stand for long periods of time . I am going to go with the idea of getting a wheel chair if needed I also am going to start PT three times a week for the next few weeks . Dr says I should be able to walk and stand better with the PT . I made my family FP and will sit out major rides but will do some smaller ones . Thank You all again I was not sure what the process for Disney was as we never had to think of it before and being overwhelmed with each place we go to and the different rules. The note also helps at work as I am suppose to stand for almost 6 hours a day and now have the ability to sit and stand as I need ! Some days are better then others and just wanted to not get flamed for asking as some sites are nasty for even asking and the DR only suggested it after knowing we are going to a local parks Christmas event !
     
  2. coastermom

    coastermom <font color=red>Proud Redhead<br><font color=peach

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  4. kathleendsm

    kathleendsm Mouseketeer

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    I'm fairly sure Six Flags doesn't count as a public accommodation, because it's a private company. That said, there are certainly accommodations that one could consider "public" that give an unequal advantage, such as handicapped parking.

    OP, good luck, and I hope you have a wonderful trip.
     
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  5. gap2368

    gap2368 DIS Veteran

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    I really hope the PT helps and is not too painfull.

    I would keep a list of a wheelchair or ECV rental in your phone or a pice of paper, and call before you get really bad. the reason why I would not rent from Disney is it is more money and you can not take it out of the park ( the line for buss boats monorail trains can be quite long) some hotels are a walk too depending on where you are staying.

    all but 5 lines are wheelchair ECV accessible,

    at the MK they are

    JC you will get a return time an go through the exit,
    POTCB you have to use a wheelchair and I think the standby FP line are both accessable.
    BTMRR you go through the exit and need a return time ( but you will probably not be riding this one.)
    IASW you will need a return time and go thought the exit
    Space retrun time and go thogut FP ( but gain you will not be riding this one)

    at EPCOT

    space ship earth you will get a retrun time and go thought the exit


    To get a retrun time you will need to see the CM at the entrince and they will write you one if the line is 10 minutes or less they will just tell you where to go.


    there are a few rides that have stares in them normily they are right after the FP standby mirge point so a CM will let you know where you need to go ( splash is on that I can think of that has stars.)

    but for the most part all lines are wheelchair ECV accessable,

    You might want to down load the Disnability maps off of Disney website for rides that you can stay in your whellchair for or the ones you need to transhfer for. I am hopeing you will be fine and not need to worrie about using anything but I know how the excitement of being at Disney can make you forget about pain untill it is too late ( I am raising my hand here)

    Also there is a handicap vewing are for the parades you do not need to use it but it is there if you want ( I think it is in the hub)
     
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  6. coastermom

    coastermom <font color=red>Proud Redhead<br><font color=peach

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    Thank you !! I am hopeful not to have to use the wheel chair but will have a list ! We are at SSR I am hopeful that with a little PT and so more movement I can get to enjoy everything . I will not ride Space anyway even on a good day LOL !! It's just too rough . This issue just started the last few weeks and has been determined that it will only progress as I get older but PT will help for now . I don't ever want to have to use the letter my DR gave me even at our local parks and just wanted to ask here what I knew our home park asked for if the same was at WDW . Most of the people have been very helpful !!
     
  7. OurBigTrip

    OurBigTrip DIS Veteran

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    The fact that it's open to the public makes it a public accommodation...ownership (public/private) has zero to do with it.
     
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  8. OurBigTrip

    OurBigTrip DIS Veteran

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    Agree 100% - I was just replying to the statement that it was illegal for the park to ask for a doctor's note.
     
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  9. gap2368

    gap2368 DIS Veteran

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    How is arguing over another park asking for a Dr note helping the OP?

    The OP is going to Disney / asked about Disney and right now Disney is not asking for Dr note or they really are not looking at them. If the OP gets a note from there local park then it sounds like they have one and know how to get the help they need for their local park. As air as Disney I think they have a good idea on what Disney wants ( or does not want) but going back and forth over what one park does and whether or not it is or is not illegal is not helping the OP.

    Just my opinion
     
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  10. cobright

    cobright DIS Veteran

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    Actually, this same level of benefit is available to anyone who wishes to purchase the special access pass. 6 flags is simply offering a limited version of it to disabled guests free of charge. Because the benefit has a monetary value, a stricter standard of proof is allowed (much like the handicap parking permit exception).

    But beyond that, the legal language doesn't handle equality in the way you think. If you provide a level of accommodation to disabled patrons that exceeds what the average patron enjoys, you have provided equal accommodation. It is a qualitative analysis, not a quantitative one. You have provided equal accommodation and then some. The extra accommodation does not negate the level of access needed to equal that afforded to other individuals.

    If read the way you suggest, States would be barred by the ADA from offering handicap parking permits.
     
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  11. cobright

    cobright DIS Veteran

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    Even if it's not helping I don't think it's harming.

    But I would suggest that a conversation on this broader topic is helpful. It is always helpful to have a fuller understanding of why things are even if what they are is settled. No settled fact exists in a vacuum. Much of disability accommodation exists in a complex context of legal framework and history. Getting a fuller picture of that can't help but help.
     
  12. SueM in MN

    SueM in MN combining the teacups with a roller coaster Moderator

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    Actually, that does not mean what many people think it means. Many assume it means ‘can’t provide a good , service, etc. that is superior to that afforded to other individuals,’ but that is not what it says.

    It is part of the general anti-discrimination provisions against people with disabilities and means that a public accommodation can’t provide a good, service, facility that is not equal to what is provided to non-disabled individuals and call it equal.
    An example would be hotel shuttle service. A hotel can’t provide hourly service to guests without disabilities, but only 2 shuttles per day to guests with disabilities and call them equal.
    A lot of the other examples/lawsuits specific to that part of the ADA have to do with insurance benefits and limitation/restrictions on insurance benefits to people with specific disabilities or types of illnesses that are not similarly limited or restricted for people without disabilities.

    Here’s a link to the participation text: http://www.southwestada.org/html/topical/PublicAccommodations/pa_general.html
    And to the entire 2010 updated ADA and 2016 Title III: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleIII_2010/titleIII_2010_regulations.htm#subparta
     
  13. MakiraMarlena

    MakiraMarlena It's a big black fish to you

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    Doctor's notes aren't accepted for DAS, they won't even read them. If one is granted it won't be diagnosis based, it will be based on the description of what the recipient needs. They apparently aren't often granted for mobility issues, as other reasonable accommodations are offered for those.
     
  14. DisneyOma

    DisneyOma DIS Veteran

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    Your paragraph is full on contradictions - how can something that exceeds be considered equal? Also, to exceed is considered quantitative, BTW.

    But what if they offered more access for a disability, and not for the general public? Wouldn't that also fall under the same language? Equal means equal, no matter how someone tries to spin it.
     
  15. ttintagel

    ttintagel DIS Veteran

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    You've gotten a lot of great replies, and it sounds like you've got a good plan brewing! I just thought I'd share this one little thing because it's something that helped me.


    On my last trip I decided not to use an ECV because the arthritis in my spine and legs wasn’t flared up too badly, and I just wanted to experience the park on foot while I had the chance. I ended up using what time I did spend in line to do stretches for my back and legs. It ended up working pretty well, and was actually refreshing. And I didn't have to feel bad for taking time out of my vacation to do the exercises, because it's time I would have spent just standing there anyway.
     
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  16. SueM in MN

    SueM in MN combining the teacups with a roller coaster Moderator

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    The part you quoted from the ADA is from the part talking about prohibition of discrimination against people with disabilities. These are the 3 sections in that part (the one you quoted was the second section). Everything needs to be looked at from that viewpoint of preventing discrimination against people with disabilities. The quoted parts are all in italics.
    § 36.202 Activities.
    • (a) Denial of participation. A public accommodation shall not subject an individual or class of individuals on the basis of a disability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements, to a denial of the opportunity of the individual or class to participate in or benefit from the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation.
    • (b) Participation in unequal benefit. A public accommodation shall not afford an individual or class of individuals, on the basis of a disability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements, with the opportunity to participate in or benefit from a good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation that is not equal to that afforded to other individuals.
    • (c) Separate benefit. A public accommodation shall not provide an individual or class of individuals, on the basis of a disability or disabilities of such individual or class, directly, or through contractual, licensing, or other arrangements with a good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation that is different or separate from that provided to other individuals, unless such action is necessary to provide the individual or class of individuals with a good, service, facility, privilege, advantage, or accommodation, or other opportunity that is as effective as that provided to others.
    From this link: https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/titleIII_2010/titleIII_2010_regulations.htm#anchor3508

    These are from the ADA interpretation guidelines for that part of the ADA. The part in bold italics is the interpretation for the part you quoted.

    III-3.0000 GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

    Regulatory references: 28 CFR 36.201-36.213.

    III-3.1000 General. A public accommodation may not discriminate against an individual with a disability in the operation of a place of public accommodation. Individuals with disabilities may not be denied full and equal enjoyment of the "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" offered by a place of public accommodation. The phrase "goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations" applies to whatever type of good or service a public accommodation provides to its customers or clients. In other words, a public accommodation must ensure equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities.

    Several broad principles underlie the nondiscrimination requirements of title III. These include --

    1) Equal opportunity to participate;

    2) Equal opportunity to benefit; and

    3) Receipt of benefits in the most integrated setting appropriate.

    The specific requirements discussed below in III-4.0000 are all designed to effectuate the general requirements. The specific provisions furnish guidance on how a public accommodation can meet its obligations in particular situations and establish standards for determining when the general requirement has been violated. Where a specific requirement applies, it controls over the general requirement.

    ILLUSTRATION: Public accommodations are only required to remove architectural barriers in existing facilities if removal is "readily achievable" (see III-4.4200). If making the main entrance to a place of public accommodation accessible is not readily achievable, the public accommodation can provide access to the facility through another entrance, even though use of the alternative entrance for individuals with disabilities would not be the most integrated setting appropriate.

    III-3.2000 Denial of participation. The ADA prohibits discriminatory denial of services or benefits to individuals with disabilities. Just as under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 a restaurant cannot refuse to admit an individual because of his or her race under the ADA, it cannot refuse to admit an individual merely because he or she has a disability.

    ILLUSTRATION: A theater cannot refuse to admit an individual with mental retardation to a performance merely because of the individual's mental disability.

    III-3.3000 Equality in participation/benefits. The ADA mandates an equal opportunity to participate in or benefit from the goods and services offered by a place of public accommodation, but does not guarantee that an individual with a disability must achieve an identical result or level of achievement as persons without disabilities.

    ILLUSTRATION 1: Persons with disabilities must not be limited to certain performances at a theater.

    ILLUSTRATION 2: An individual who uses a wheelchair may not be excluded from an exercise class at a health club because he or she cannot do all of the exercises and derive the same result from the class as persons without disabilities.



    These are some examples from the same interpretive guidelines that specifically mention accommodations that might be offered for people with disabilities that are not equal (I.e. more than the general public is offered). The parts I underlined are the pertinent parts.

    III-3.4100 Separate programs. A public accommodation may offer separate or special programs necessary to provide individuals with disabilities an equal opportunity to benefit from the programs. Such programs must, however, be specifically designed to meet the needs of the individuals with disabilities for whom they are provided.

    ILLUSTRATION 1: Museums generally do not allow visitors to touch exhibits because handling can cause damage to the objects. A municipal museum may offer a special tour for individuals with vision impairments during which they are permitted to touch and handle specific objects on a limited basis. (It cannot, however, exclude a blind person from the standard museum tour.)

    ILLUSTRATION 2: A private athletic facility may sponsor a separate basketball league for individuals who use wheelchairs.

    III-3.4200 Right to participate in the regular program. Even if a separate or special program for individuals with disabilities is offered, a public accommodation cannot deny an individual with a disability participation in its regular program, unless some other limitation on the obligation to provide services applies. See, e.g. , III-3.8000 (direct threat); III-4.1000 (eligibility criteria).

    ILLUSTRATION: An individual who uses a wheelchair may be excluded from playing in a basketball league, if the recreation center can demonstrate that the exclusion is necessary for safe operation.

    Individuals with disabilities are entitled to participate in regular programs, even if the public accommodation could reasonably believe that they cannot benefit from the regular program.

    ILLUSTRATION: A museum cannot exclude a person who is blind from a tour because of assumptions about his or her inability to appreciate and benefit from the tour experience. Similarly, a deaf person may not be excluded from a museum concert because of a belief that deaf persons cannot enjoy the music.

    The fact that a public accommodation offers special programs does not affect the right of an individual with a disability to participate in regular programs. The requirements for providing access to the regular program still apply.

    ILLUSTRATION: A public accommodation cannot exclude a person who is blind from a standard museum tour, where touching objects is not permitted, if he or she prefers the standard tour.

    Individuals with disabilities may not be required to accept special "benefits" if they choose not to do so.

    ILLUSTRATION: ABC theater offers reduced rate tickets for individuals with disabilities and requires appropriate documentation for eligibility for the reduced rates. ABC cannot require an individual who qualifies for the reduced rate to present documentation or accept the reduced rate, if he or she chooses to pay the full price.



    This is the link to the entire document:

    https://www.ada.gov/taman3.html

    I don’t have time to search for it, but there is also an interpretative section that talks more about guidance for public accommodations being allowed to ask for proof of disability IF they are offering something that would be considered of value (like the theater discount above). They are NOT required to offer more or require documentation; if they choose to offer more, they can require documentation.

    And, to clarify, a public accommodation is basically anywhere the public goes to obtain goods or services.
     
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  17. SueM in MN

    SueM in MN combining the teacups with a roller coaster Moderator

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    And, I think that is enough ADA discussion.
    If anyone has further information or hints for the OP, go ahead.
     
  18. smidgy

    smidgy dimples

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    I see you are staying at saratoga. that is a very large resort. if you rent a wheelchair in the park, it is only good for the park. not the resort. there are a number of companies that rent wheelchairs for your entire trip. (we use walker mobility. randy's Mobility is another one) they will meet you in the lobby of your resort on check in day to drop it off, and the same at the end of your trip.. then you will have the wheelchair to use from the park to the buses.. from the buses to your room, and also the entire time at your resort.
     
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  19. Mrsjvb

    Mrsjvb DIS Veteran

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    I didn't see any mention of the total LACK of places to sit and rest within the parks themselves. most of the benches have been removed and they won't let you sit at any of the CS tables without having purchased something to eat or drink especially when it is crowded( or raining) and lets not forget the long lines for buses/boats/monorail transportation. many times they are all SRO as well so having a wheelchair with you can mitigate that.
     
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  20. maxiesmom

    maxiesmom The Mean Squinty Eye Works

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    Many of the benches have been replaced by planters that double as a place to sit. However they don't have anything to rest your back against, which would probably be an issue for the OP.
     
  21. Rileygirl

    Rileygirl DIS Veteran

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    Great Post- this is so helpful to me!!!!! Thanks so much
     

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