Question about how CMs load standby vs FP folks

[Katie Dawn]

First of all, I am not asking this question because I am freaking out, or because I am worried, or anything of that sort...I am merely curious.

My only 2 trips to Disney have been high school band trips. There was no Fast Pass then, only standby. So I understand that if you have a FP then you wait in a different, (potentially) faster moving line. I've also read about the standby line being "held up" to let FP folks in.

So how does that work? They load several standby people while the FPers wait, and then they load FPers while the standby line waits? Does it seem to be pretty even between the 2? (For instance, you've noticed about 20 standby people load then about 20 FP people load, etc) or do a larger percentage of FPers get loaded?

I know I'm glad the system exists...as a DISer and a TGMer I think I have an "above average" understanding about the FP system and plan to use that knowledge to its fullest at every turn.

Thanks for the insight! I'm a social worker but I think I must be part engineer since I often find myself asking, "how does this work?" and "why do they do it this way?" just because I find the process itself interesting.

 

[MKandy]

First of all, I am not asking this question because I am freaking out, or because I am worried, or anything of that sort...I am merely curious.

My only 2 trips to Disney have been high school band trips. There was no Fast Pass then, only standby. So I understand that if you have a FP then you wait in a different, (potentially) faster moving line. I've also read about the standby line being "held up" to let FP folks in.

So how does that work? They load several standby people while the FPers wait, and then they load FPers while the standby line waits? Does it seem to be pretty even between the 2? (For instance, you've noticed about 20 standby people load then about 20 FP people load, etc) or do a larger percentage of FPers get loaded?

I know I'm glad the system exists...as a DISer and a TGMer I think I have an "above average" understanding about the FP system and plan to use that knowledge to its fullest at every turn.

Thanks for the insight! I'm a social worker but I think I must be part engineer since I often find myself asking, "how does this work?" and "why do they do it this way?" just because I find the process itself interesting.

CMs have a ratio (Standby guests vs. FastPass guests) to follow at each attraction. This ratio can differ depending on the popularity of the attraction, wait time, and the amount of guests in the Fastpass line. This ratio is always has a higher amount for the FastPass guests than Standby. This means that a lot of FP guests will be let in then only a few Standby guests. Don't worry though, CMs work very hard to get both lines moving as quickly as possible. CMs understand that it is frustrating to be in the Standby line and watch Fastpass guest after Fastpass guest get let in before you. It is a great system when operating properly and you should take advantage of FastPass when you go. Ask any CM if you have questions, they will be more than happy to help.

 

[doconeill]

When it is working well, all the Fastpass riders will be let in first, and then Standby riders will fill out the remainder, and everything keeps moving. The Fastpass riders are seldom held up, and when they are it is because the loading area is full already when they arrive and they just need to wait a cycle. But there are some fluctuations - more Fastpass riders arriving in a bunch, etc. - but it all evens out over time.

When it isn't, well...everybody gets cranky.

Test Track seems to be where the Fastpass line gets backed up quite a bit...

 

[WeLuvTink!]

On other rides where there are two different lines/sides (like Space Mountain, Soarin', Big Thunder, etc.) then one side is dedicated to standby and one to Fastpass. BTW - if the Fastpass line is completely empty, they do load standby people to that side too.

I LOVE Fastpass!

 

[Katie Dawn]

Ask any CM if you have questions, they will be more than happy to help.

Thanks Cast Member MKandy! Yes, I realized after I proposed the 20 standby to 20 FPers that it had to be higher than that, otherwise there is no advantage to the FP.

Test Track seems to be where the Fastpass line gets backed up quite a bit...

Good to know...

I LOVE Fastpass!

Me too...and I've never even used it!!!

 

[doconeill]

On other rides where there are two different lines/sides (like Space Mountain, Soarin', Big Thunder, etc.) then one side is dedicated to standby and one to Fastpass. BTW - if the Fastpass line is completely empty, they do load standby people to that side too.

I LOVE Fastpass!

I've used Fastpass/Rider Switch quite a bit (hence the web page), and I have NEVER noticed such a thing. The merge point of most of the rides is well before choosing "sides" to load on. FP or not, at the merge point the CM usually tells you which line to get in, and it will be the one with the least number of people at that point. At Space Mountain, they pretty much let you choose either line regardless.

Test Track may be an exception with how they load the "training rooms", but I've been thinking more and more that Fastpass isn't working quite as well as it should there anyways.

 

[Katie Dawn]

So this leads to a follow-up question:

Since visitors are generally allowed to use their FP past their printed "return time"...in other words someone with a FP return time of 1:00-2:00pm is usually allowed to use that FP later than that, at let's say 5pm...would the standby line tend to get more backed up later in the day in part due to the building number of FPers?

In other words, if FPers have priority, and there can be a tendency for people to skip their actual return time and return a little later, wouldn't a higher number of total standby riders get loaded in a 30 minute period at 12pm vs 5pm, when a higher number of FPers are filtering through the line?

As the OP I'd like to ask that this thread please not turn into a discussion about whether it's right or wrong for people to return with FPs after their scheduled return time.... I am asking a logistical/factual question, not an ethical one.

I really hope I'm not opening a can of worms here...I just really find this interesting.

 

[bradk]

while using a FP late is allowed, it does inherently impact the intent behind the FASTPASS system which is based on a series of factors, mostly the THRC for a particular attraction.

that said, it hasn't affected enough for the parks to enact the time window restriction (save for an occasional, brief period, such as when soarin' was reduced in load areas because it had floors being redone)

in older attractions, the CM is really at their own discretion within whatever guidelines for that attraction. something neat about TSMM is it actually counts (down) guests as they cross the point where FP and standby merge and alerts the CM to trade off between standby and FP (I think it's every 40 guests, it switches)

 

[doconeill]

So this leads to a follow-up question:

Since visitors are generally allowed to use their FP past their printed "return time"...in other words someone with a FP return time of 1:00-2:00pm is usually allowed to use that FP later than that, at let's say 5pm...would the standby line tend to get more backed up later in the day in part due to the building number of FPers?

In other words, if FPers have priority, and there can be a tendency for people to skip their actual return time and return a little later, wouldn't a higher number of total standby riders get loaded in a 30 minute period at 12pm vs 5pm, when a higher number of FPers are filtering through the line?

As the OP I'd like to ask that this thread please not turn into a discussion about whether it's right or wrong for people to return with FPs after their scheduled return time.... I am asking a logistical/factual question, not an ethical one.

I really hope I'm not opening a can of worms here...I just really find this interesting.

Ooohhh...this one's for me...

If you want to bore yourself to death or at least be hopelessly driven insane, you can read my article Why using a late FASTPASS doesn't matter! - it is actually a technical discussion regarding what generally happens to the standby line people.

But in general, the person using the FP late actually benefits those in the standby line by riding sooner up until he shows up. After that, everyone pretty much rides as soon as they would have if he had shown up earlier. However, there is a perception of people in the standby line that they have to wait longer because their frame of reference only includes the time they are in the standby line - not what happened earlier in the day before they got there, etc. And there is that silly "Standby Wait Time" sign that people believe too much

Now, there can be some effect to the people in the Fastpass line that can be noticeable if a large enough group show up late. But the effect is generally temporary and relatively short.

 

[doconeill]

while using a FP late is allowed, it does inherently impact the intent behind the FASTPASS system which is based on a series of factors, mostly the THRC for a particular attraction.

I sort of agree/disagree. The THRC (theoretically hourly ride capacity for the newer DISers - I usually just call it the load rate) is a constant. Someone using their Fastpass late can have only very minor effects on the fastpass/standby ratio, and its a zero sum - more standby riders ride sooner in exchange for less later. If a large group did this and showed up all at the same time, it is certainly more noticeable, but still in the end it is a zero sum, because the THRC can't change.

 

[Buzz Litebeer]

On other rides where there are two different lines/sides (like Space Mountain, Soarin', Big Thunder, etc.) then one side is dedicated to standby and one to Fastpass.

Sorry; no. FP is sent to both sides.

It's misinformation like this that makes life difficult for the CMs working FP Merge Point.

 

[Katie Dawn]

while using a FP late is allowed, it does inherently impact the intent behind the FASTPASS system which is based on a series of factors, mostly the THRC for a particular attraction.

Thanks bradk! Also, I want you to know I just used the acronyms website you sent recently to find out what THRC meant. (And for those that are wondering, it means Theoretical Hourly Ride Capacity)

If you want to bore yourself to death or at least be hopelessly driven insane, you can read my article Why using a late FASTPASS doesn't matter! - it is actually a technical discussion regarding what generally happens to the standby line people.

I did read it, and the theory makes sense to me. I am now neither bored to death nor hopelessly insane...at least not as far as I know. But I would think that if I were hopelessly insane, I probably wouldn't have much insight into the matter.

Wow....I am such a nerd.
Thankyouverymuch.

 

[doconeill]

I did read it, and the theory makes sense to me. I am now neither bored to death nor hopelessly insane...at least not as far as I know. But I would think that if I were hopelessly insane, I probably wouldn't have much insight into the matter.

Wow....I am such a nerd.
Thankyouverymuch.

I wish there was a cookie icon, so I could award you with the "You actually understood it!" Cookie Award...

Even I have to rewrite it sometime so I can remember what I was thinking...

 

[bradk]

my point is (and maybe i'm too tired to understand otherwise) is that the # of FPs issued per time window (which can actually be manipulated by the management of an attraction - or manually by CMs (cough, cough)) is determined vastly in part to the THRC. using soarin' as an example, when a vehicle is down, the THRC is cut in half. issuing the same number of FPs on an hourly basis would simply be death because the THRC doesn't support it.

so the number of FPs distributed per window is based on an assumption that a certain percentage of the THRC comes from standby and a certain percentage comes from FP. the THRC is presumably never affected because it just means for every FP that shows up late, a standby gets on sooner, but it does catch up later on, but again, not in a way that really impedes the system as of yet. but my primary example is if everyone with a FP to splash on a 100 degree day showed up at 2 pm to redeem their late FPs. not only would less standby be able to make it through that hour because of the additional FPs, but the additional FPs would theoretically generate larger lines for FPs as well. THRC remains unchanged while wait times on both sides potentially increase dramatically.

if guests were only allowed to ride attractions once, it wouldn't be as noticeable, but since the standby line is infinite in theory, there's always potential of being overrun.

 

[Katie Dawn]

my point is (and maybe i'm too tired to understand otherwise) is that the # of FPs issued per time window (which can actually be manipulated by the management of an attraction - or manually by CMs (cough, cough)) is determined vastly in part to the THRC. using soarin' as an example, when a vehicle is down, the THRC is cut in half. issuing the same number of FPs on an hourly basis would simply be death because the THRC doesn't support it.

so the number of FPs distributed per window is based on an assumption that a certain percentage of the THRC comes from standby and a certain percentage comes from FP. the THRC is presumably never affected because it just means for every FP that shows up late, a standby gets on sooner, but it does catch up later on, but again, not in a way that really impedes the system as of yet. but my primary example is if everyone with a FP to splash on a 100 degree day showed up at 2 pm to redeem their late FPs. not only would less standby be able to make it through that hour because of the additional FPs, but the additional FPs would theoretically generate larger lines for FPs as well. THRC remains unchanged while wait times on both sides potentially increase dramatically.

if guests were only allowed to ride attractions once, it wouldn't be as noticeable, but since the standby line is infinite in theory, there's always potential of being overrun.

That makes sense too. In essence I guess the entire discussion is a theory, and much of it comes down to how the variables would affect the main theory.

It seems certain that FPers that arrive after their return time will cause 1) a perception of a longer wait in the standby line and 2) an actual longer wait in the FP line. I understand what you are saying that there is a difference between THRC and wait times. But it also makes sense that there could be times that the standby people are moving faster through the line and other times that they are moving slower through the line, depending on whether there has been a lack of FPers showing up at their time or whether or not there is a sudden rush of FPers (in your example, at 2pm). Overall, though, it seems like if it is a ride that is going to have a long line much of the day that it would all even out for standby people? In other words if someone showed up for Splash at 1:30, they might go through the line quicker than expected from 1:30-2:00. At 2:00 they would start going through the line slower than expected because of the influx of FPers. But in the end, from the moment they entered the que to the moment the load the ride...the total time would be the same whether all the FPs are on schedule or not? However, if I'm understanding part of your point Brad, this entire theory is assuming the rate that FPs are given out is static. If management or a CM changes the FP issuance rate...perhaps based on the fact that the prior FP folks haven't shown up...that could affect everything significantly.

Thank you everyone...I have enjoyed this discussion!

 

[seashoreCM]

A common ratio is 4 Fastpass riders for every standby rider, namely 80% fastpass. The CM at the merge point might do it 20 fastpass riders then 5 standby riders or might do it 40:10 or even 100:25.

There is still the goal of having people coming back to use their fastpasses experience little additional waiting time. So the ratio may be changed as needed. The CM at the merge point might not be able to see how long the Fastpass line got or might not have a Ph.D. in math so it may depend on a supervisor to get the ratio changed properly.

Some real aberrations have been reported. In one cas (at Kilimanjaro Safari) reported here a year or so ago, apparently the CM was told "right line" and "left line" as opposed to fastpass line and standby line. Facing the crowd, one often gets "right" and "left" reversed and what was reported was that the Fastpass line was hopelessly backed up while standby riders were overtaking like crazy.

I still believe that large numbers of guests using their fastpasses late will gum up (screw up) the works. If the number of fastpasses issued reflects the ratio for the hour (4:1 or whatever) then attrition (no-shows) may balance out late users. But if the issuance rate for late hours was increased to account for attrition, then latecomers will upset the balance.

Disney hints: http://www.cockam.com/fastpass.htm

 

[vicki_c]

I am totally "bought in" to the late FPs - we've been doing it for years, and I always follow these FP theory discussions with interest, and I do believe that using them late has no great effect.

BUT ... interesting thing happened to us in June. We never got to use our late Test Track FPs because the FP return line was so long. We returned to use our FPs around 4:45 PM and the return line was way out into the walkway (past the GM/Test Track sign). We returned later to try again, around 7:30, I guess, and it was still the same. The CM said 20 minutes, but when my husband questioned her further, the answer seemed a lot less certain. It definitely looked like a lot more than 20 minutes to us. So we never rode it at all that day. It could have been broken down at some point in the day, but I never heard that.

Anyway ... that one experience did make me question some of the late FP theory stuff, but not enough to make me change my practices.

 

[DisneyWisher]

Just a tip to the OP if Test Track is shut down due to weather wait a couple of hours after its back up and running to go standby. While there is rain hard and they shut it down. Later in the day they were just reopening it and the standby line said 30 mins. We thought what the heck lets get in line. We waited over 100 mins (I know we were crazy but we kept thinking the line will start moving along in a bit) To anyone that knows the standby line, the end of the line was in the "blue room", its not like the line was outside, we were in the bldg. FP and single riders didn't wait at all. So there were 4 hours of FP riders (ride closed between 11am until 3pm). One of the people complained that they should have said something over a loud speaker that the line might be longer than posted.

 

[doconeill]

My main argument is that wait times are fluid regardless of fastpass (and posted wait times are inaccurate in general), and should not be used as a measurement with regards to late FP use.

You also get the exact same effect if a large group showed up with their Fastpasses at the same time, but they were all within their window - some at the end of their window, some in the middle and some at the beginning.

The way my argument functions is that everyone using the standby line is going to enter that line at a certain time of day. We have to leave out whether they decide not to because of the wait time indicator, which as already mentioned is inaccurate and we cannot predict what the "breaking point" is for those people, so we presume they will ride regardless as was the case before FP.

Here is something of a rewrite, because for unexplained reasons I'm feeling scientific...somebody needs to stop me so I can actually get some work done...

There are a few assumptions to make this case fairly simple, such as no maintenance issues affecting the load rate that day, the standby line is never empty, etc.

Let's call that person S.

Now, when they actually get to BOARD the ride will depend on the number of people in front of them in the Standby line, and the number of people who use their Fastpasses, between the time they enter the Standby line and the time they board. If there was no Fastpasses, then S gets to board at a known time, say N. With Fastpass, they will get to board sooner because some number of guests are deferring entering the standby line by getting a Fastpass for a time later than N, so call that new time T. Early on, N and T are close to each other but then separate until a theoretical maximum, and then towards the end of the day they shrink back together again.

If someone did not use their Fastpass (call them person F), which was eligible any time before S's board time, until after S gets to the boarding area, then S gets to board sooner than T (call the difference B for "bonus"). For X number of Fs in this case, then S gets to board at T - (X * B).

If any F DOES use their Fastpass before S boards, then S does not get their "bonus", and the time moves back closer to T. This does not actually change if they used their Fastpass on time or late, or whether they did so hours before or walk up just before S gets on. S will get to board no later than T.

The problem in the standby line is that they PERCEIVE that they had to wait longer because from their frame of reference, they were going to get to board at T - (X * B) (and which may have been corroborated by the wait time indicator), but that changed because one or more Fs showed up. The variance obviously increases with more Fs using their Fastpass while S is in line.

Now if everyone used their Fastpass at the first possible minute, things would be fairly constant. The wait time indicator would be fairly accurate (at least with regards to Fastpass use, but a single Tour Group can break that). But not everyone uses their Fastpasses that way...after all, you have a whole hour, right? So some come first minute, some within 15 minutes, and some within the hour. They come in clumps. So there are perturbations to that bonus time that S hopes to experience. But they have not affected T.

So, what if F comes later than their hour window? Nothing changes with regards to T. In fact, even more Ss experience a bonus while they are late. But it does mean that T - (X*B) is greater for S, and therefore their perception of a delay can be that much greater if F shows up.

Now, where the REAL effect is if a late Fastpass user (L) shows up before other Fastpass users who are within their window (F). Assuming the Fastpass line empties periodically (and if all is running well, I believe it should), then L has pushed back all the Fs behind them by one person. That could mean a delay of 0 (they still get loaded on the same vehicle/theater/etc.), seconds (on a continuous load attraction), or a cycle (they got pushed to the next vehicle/theater/etc. because it is now full). But even that effect goes away once the FP line empties again (i.e. Fs coming after the FP line empties the next time are not delayed at all). Of course, the more Ls there are, the more Fs that are affected and the longer the delay is.

The biggest concern is at the end of the park day - where if everyone elected to hold their FPs until the last possible moment and then crash the FP line, then there would be great delays in the FP line, and the standby line could come to a standstill unless the CM is applying the ratio. But this doesn't generally happen to that degree. MOST people use their FPs as soon as they reasonably can.

ARGH!!!!! Why do I keep doing this to myself?!? I hope ANY of that made sense.

The 80:20 rule seems a bit much. That implies that they are giving out Fastpasses at a rate equivalent to 80% of the load rate, which seems awfully high. Not impossible, but it just seems that way from observation. It also implies that 80% of guests must be using Fastpass, and I REALLY don't see that. Perhaps it is a maximum ratio to deal with the perturbations I've mentioned, along with other reasons (like maintenance issues).

 

[doconeill]

I am totally "bought in" to the late FPs - we've been doing it for years, and I always follow these FP theory discussions with interest, and I do believe that using them late has no great effect.

BUT ... interesting thing happened to us in June. We never got to use our late Test Track FPs because the FP return line was so long. We returned to use our FPs around 4:45 PM and the return line was way out into the walkway (past the GM/Test Track sign). We returned later to try again, around 7:30, I guess, and it was still the same. The CM said 20 minutes, but when my husband questioned her further, the answer seemed a lot less certain. It definitely looked like a lot more than 20 minutes to us. So we never rode it at all that day. It could have been broken down at some point in the day, but I never heard that.

Anyway ... that one experience did make me question some of the late FP theory stuff, but not enough to make me change my practices.

That is why I think Fastpass is terribly broken somehow at Test Track specifically.

In April, we got in the Standby line at Test Track around 10am, not long after Fastpass returns started showing up. The wait time was "30 minutes". It was closer to two hours, with the FP line reaching out the door not 30 minutes later. The standby line barely moved at times.

Maybe that's where they are issuing 80% Fastpasses...