Question about copyrighted songs

[nile455]

This past weekend I saw my neighbor's daughter in her high school production of "Grease". I absolutely love Grease, so you could imagine how disappointed I was when several of the best songs from the movie were not performed (Hopelessly Devoted To You, You're The One That I Want, etc). I asked her why they were omitted, and she said the director would've loved to include those songs, but they are not part of the original staged version and that it would be "illegal" to add them and that you need special permission from that publisher, and even then it's highly unlikely it would get approved.

So my question is, why is it okay for a dance or cheer team or ice skater to pick any copyrighted song they want for their performance, but it's illegal for a play?

 

[HM]

When you put on a play in a HS (and likely other venues), you have to apply to use the play/musical from the copyright holder/agency. The cost of the 'rental' is determined by the number of people that are expected to see it, how many nights the show is held, etc. They only have rights to use what is included in the playbook. The cost of these better known shows is fairly steep. And they can't always get the rights; sometimes another school or two in the area plan on the same play/musical around the same time and the agent determines that it's too many showings and rejects the request. Its a lot more complicated that you'd think.

I do not know how the other teams/performers you mention get permission to use music. I kind of think that they don't on the local scale of things.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I would assume dancers or ice skaters have to pay for use of the songs, as well. Maybe that's included in the price of the routine, assuming the routine was something that was bought as opposed to designed by hand.

 

[lizabu]

I'm not sure how skating etc works. My DD is in the school band and they always thank whoever donated the money to pay for the rights to play the songs they perform either in the program or at the end of both. It might have been a budgetary decision to not include those songs.

 

[barkley]

When you put on a play in a HS (and likely other venues), you have to apply to use the play/musical from the copyright holder/agency. The cost of the 'rental' is determined by the number of people that are expected to see it, how many nights the show is held, etc. They only have rights to use what is included in the playbook. The cost of these better known shows is fairly steep. And they can't always get the rights; sometimes another school or two in the area plan on the same play/musical around the same time and the agent determines that it's too many showings and rejects the request. Its a lot more complicated that you'd think.

I do not know how the other teams/performers you mention get permission to use music. I kind of think that they don't on the local scale of things.

yup-and some companies have 'spotters' who will randomly buy tickets to a performance and report back to the copyright holder/agency. I don't know if this is so much done w/high school performances but I was in a small community theatre production of a play that had been translated into a successful movie then tv series where a spotter showed up (we had not broken any copyrights thankfully). the same practice also extends to what can be used on marketing materials for productions-some years back there was a case of a northern california school getting an entire production shut down b/c the copyright holder to images that were associated w/the play the school was doing (but were strictly prohibited from being used in marketing materials w/o a STEEP fee) learned the school had ignored the contract and was using his work on posters and print ads.

 

[Chocolate Chip Cookie]

http://copyright.gov/circs/circ50.pdf
Does that help?

 

[pryncess527]

So my question is, why is it okay for a dance or cheer team or ice skater to pick any copyrighted song they want for their performance, but it's illegal for a play?

Why do you assume that these other groups do not also have to buy rights to the music they use?

It is my understanding that for figure skating, the skaters themselves do not have this burden, but the people organizing the competition absolutely do have to obtain the rights to all music being used. And skaters may be asked to change music if the rights can not be obtained.

 

[LBIJim]

When staging a revival of a musical, the producers almost always revert back to the original script of the play. Any added material from a movie is usually not included. This is especially true in amateur or high school productions. Additional royalties for movie songs are often cost prohibitive. And as the OP mentioned, permission is usually not given at any price. The movie songwriters often don't want their work associated with the play.

This is one of the reasons many people were disappointed with that live TV stage production of The Sound of Music. Most people only know the movie version.

 

[nile455]

Why do you assume that these other groups do not also have to buy rights to the music they use?

It is my understanding that for figure skating, the skaters themselves do not have this burden, but the people organizing the competition absolutely do have to obtain the rights to all music being used. And skaters may be asked to change music if the rights can not be obtained.

Okay let's make it easier, what about the kid who performs a Madonna song at the summer camp talent show? What about the restaurant pianist? Or the kazillion covers on YouTube for that matter? None of these are paying for their use of the song. Where exactly is the legality line drawn?

 

[Imzadi]

The cost of these better known shows is fairly steep. And they can't always get the rights; sometimes another school or two in the area plan on the same play/musical around the same time and the agent determines that it's too many showings and rejects the request. Its a lot more complicated that you'd think.

Yes, and if it's a very popular show currently on Broadway, usually they do not grant the rights until the show has ended on Broadway. They consider even high school productions competition. And if it's a BAD high school production who is then going to want to see the original on Broadway or the touring company when it passes through town?


That reminds me of seeing a horrible avante guard production of Hamlet, back in college. They somehow mixed it with songs from South Pacific. Mary Rodgers, the daughter of one of the songwriters, who was alive and then owned the rights to her father's estate, had given rights for South Pacific to be performed, but wasn't informed that it had been "blended" with Hamlet. She supposedly had a cow when she heard what they did to her father's musical. At least she didn't SEE it. There are some nightmares one can never forget.

 

[pryncess527]

Okay let's make it easier, what about the kid who performs a Madonna song at the summer camp talent show? What about the restaurant pianist? Or the kazillion covers on YouTube for that matter? None of these are paying for their use of the song. Where exactly is the legality line drawn?

Many of those covers on YouTube do get removed as copyright violations.
The owner of a bar or restaurant that has live music is expected to obtain a blanket license from the ASCAP or BMI.
Kids performing at summer camp might be protected if the performance is not considered "public," but more likely if they did not buy the rights, they are in violation of copyright and just counting on no one catching such a small-scale violation.

ASCAP has a FAQ you might find helpful: http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licensingfaq.aspx#general

But the "line" is pretty clear -- if you are playing music at a public performance, you must obtain the copyright to perform that work.

 

[HM]

In reality, whenever someone performs a piece of copyrighted work, it would be paid for. I can't tell you if anyone does this in any of the instances you suggested.

I too wonder about YouTube. I do know that some videos have been taken down for copyright matters according to things I've read. But, that must be a small percentage.

I do know that at summer camp, our kids did karaoke to popular songs for talent day. The only ones seeing this were the other campers. There was no payment for use.

If a school wants to show a movie in a class and they get it from the librarian....she has to budget for payment of that use. If the teacher brings in a movie from home to show, s/he's violating the copyright and the FBI warning on it, but who is going to turn the teacher in?

 

[Imzadi]

Okay let's make it easier, what about the kid who performs a Madonna song at the talent show? What about the restaurant pianist? Or the kazillion covers on YouTube for that matter? None of these are paying for their use of the song. Where exactly is the legality line drawn?

Many times, the legalities are if the show is charging admission and if it is being advertised to the general public to attend. A cute little summer camp talent show, generally only going to be viewed by the parents and a few others, NOT expected to be of professional calibre quality, probably is going to be okay with playing the song, although technically they are supposed to pay royalties when publicly using the song.

As for YouTube, most of the stuff uploaded to YouTube IS illegal. It is up to the copyright owners to go after the individuals who uploaded it, send warnings, ask for the video to be taken down. NBC is rigorous on making sure no one infringes on anything they produce. They usually shut things down within 24 hours of being uploaded. But, many other companies and people, like Jimmy Kimmel, realize they get more advertising every time someone views one of their shows/songs, so it's worth more to them in the end, and they often look the other way (for a time, like until after the buzz dies down,) or limit how many pirated copies are out there.

 

[chartle]

Why do you assume that these other groups do not also have to buy rights to the music they use?

It is my understanding that for figure skating, the skaters themselves do not have this burden, but the people organizing the competition absolutely do have to obtain the rights to all music being used. And skaters may be asked to change music if the rights can not be obtained.

I also think its the venue that has to have the licence. Think about all the songs that get played at Pro and College Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc. games. I think they get a pretty broad licence similar to a radio station.

Though I'm quite sure when the Cheerleaders do their routine at the Preseason Meat the teams event they aren't worrying about copyright.

But the band by buying the music has a licence to play it. I think thats where the licence for certain things come from. I'll check my wife's Best of Marvin Hamlisch song book, she takes lessons. It most likely has the terms of how she can preform it. Pretty sure if she wanted to record it and make an album she would need another licence.

 

[Imzadi]

I also think its the venue that has to have the licence. Think about all the songs that get played at Pro and College Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, etc. games. I think they get a pretty broad licence similar to a radio station.

Yes, it isn't just for the songs. I saw on the news years ago, how a church bought a huge projection screen and was going to show the Superbowl live (or some event like that,) in their church auditorium. The church was just hoping to get enough money pay for the projection screen, gather it's congregation together in a friendly get together and hopefully make some extra money to pay for some church stuff.

The problem was that they advertised it to the public and were charging admission. The church hadn't realized they needed to apply for the same type of licensing/rights that a sports bar needs to show the game live and make money off of it. They were informed the day before the Superbowl that they hadn't apply for the rights, and the event was being shut down. The church person being interviewed on the news explained that they found out the money it would have taken to get the rights would have cost about as much or more than the church was hoping to make. So the event was canceled.

 

[chartle]

Yes, it isn't just for the songs. I saw on the news years ago, how a church bought a huge projection screen and was going to show the Superbowl live (or some event like that,) in their church auditorium. The church was just hoping to get enough money pay for the projection screen, gather it's congregation together in a friendly get together and hopefully make some extra money to pay for some church stuff.

The problem was that they advertised it to the public and were charging admission. The church hadn't realized they needed to apply for the same type of licensing/rights that a sports bar needs to show the game live and make money off of it. They were informed the day before the Superbowl that they hadn't apply for the rights, and the event was being shut down. The church person being interviewed on the news explained that they found out the money it would have taken to get the rights would have cost about as much or more than the church was hoping to make. So the event was canceled.

Same thing happened the last time the steelers played in it. the university of Pittsburgh wanted to show it in an outside venue they set everything up and thought they lined everything up rights wise but at the last minute the SB said no.

 

[Hrhpd]

This past weekend I saw my neighbor's daughter in her high school production of "Grease". I absolutely love Grease, so you could imagine how disappointed I was when several of the best songs from the movie were not performed (Hopelessly Devoted To You, You're The One That I Want, etc). I asked her why they were omitted, and she said the director would've loved to include those songs, but they are not part of the original staged version and that it would be "illegal" to add them and that you need special permission from that publisher, and even then it's highly unlikely it would get approved.

So my question is, why is it okay for a dance or cheer team or ice skater to pick any copyrighted song they want for their performance, but it's illegal for a play?

Why do you assume cheerleaders can pick any song and use it? They also need to pay to use copyrighted songs. Most teams go through special companies to mix their music and they take care of the royalties.

 

[lizabu]

I attended my nieces wedding and uploaded a video on YouTube to share with family members who couldn't be there. She and her groom were coming down the stairs and there was some sort of processional song playing in the background at the wedding hall as they entered. The video was removed due to copyright infringement. I honestly hadn't even thought about it but even in completely innocent situations you have to beware of infringing on someone's copyright.

 

[Hrhpd]

In reality, whenever someone performs a piece of copyrighted work, it would be paid for. I can't tell you if anyone does this in any of the instances you suggested.

I too wonder about YouTube. I do know that some videos have been taken down for copyright matters according to things I've read. But, that must be a small percentage.

I do know that at summer camp, our kids did karaoke to popular songs for talent day. The only ones seeing this were the other campers. There was no payment for use.

If a school wants to show a movie in a class and they get it from the librarian....she has to budget for payment of that use. If the teacher brings in a movie from home to show, s/he's violating the copyright and the FBI warning on it, but who is going to turn the teacher in?

You would be surprised. I know of an elementary school that got in trouble for showing a Disney movie when they did not have a Disney license. A mom was pissy that they were showing movies in school and turned them in. I believe they got a slap on the wrist because they did agree to buy the license.

I was volunteering at another school and the librarian always said made sure to tell teachers and parents that they were not allowed to show the Disney movies as they did not have the Disney license. Apparently, the Disney license to show movies at a school, even just in the classroom is very expensive.

 

[chartle]

I attended my nieces wedding and uploaded a video on YouTube to share with family members who couldn't be there. She and her groom were coming down the stairs and there was some sort of processional song playing in the background at the wedding hall as they entered. The video was removed due to copyright infringement. I honestly hadn't even thought about it but even in completely innocent situations you have to beware of infringing on someone's copyright.

I filmed my wife's recital and it was taken down. It was her singing to just piano accompaniment.