Queen Elizabeth funeral and looking forward

[Skywalker]

I just think it’s funny that Meghan took a picture in front of Buckingham Palace and allegedly read a book about Diana in her teens and people accuse her of playing the long game to marry into the royal family, social climbing, gold digging, etc. But the idea that Kate may have chosen her university in order to gain access to William has people praising mother’s intuition and their supposedly happy relationship, shrugging off whatever her intentions may have been, and then getting the warm fuzzies over the kids having grandparents. All, part, or none of these rumors might be true but the double standard in how these two women are perceived is just incredible.

To be fair, it's not a double standard because the situations arent the same. Kate wasn't all "Well I do declare, I had no idea that little ole William in my astronomy class was a Prince! The future King you say? Why let me Google that!".
Kate's authentic. Meghan's phony. Your opinion might be different of course

 

[Karin1984]

I dont think the courtship itself is what made the difference. Lately several articles have come out about how it was an option for Harry and Meghan to spend a year or more in South Africa (or another place) after getting married. They could have gotten married, started their family and got comfortable with their roles at a slow pace. They chose not to.

I think their decision to dive into their roles immediately might come from Meghan's ambitions, but also Harry's fears about his time as the spare was limited. As soon as George and siblings get older he is pushed to the back.

For the difference about being social climbers between Kate and Meghan. I think that comes from that a. For Kate it is already two decades ago, and Meghan is still fresh in mind. B. There is a difference between pushing yourself in your late 30s and being pushed by your mother in your late teens. And c. We know more about Meghan's motivation than Mrs. Middleton's. People have claimed Meghan was obsessed about Diana, she came to the UK to find a famous husband and when you look at her previous boyfriends and husbands, everyone of them is a step higher up the social ladder.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I think Charles and William aren’t really unhappy with their roles. But Harry is, as the “spare”. It does sort of suck if you’re role is less defined (than that of the King or Prince of Wales/future King), especially when there are rumblings about slimming down the monarchy. But it seemed like Harry had a pretty prominent role even as a spare. I think he did come to want to see what life was like outside the royal circle, and being with Meghan gave him that opportunity.


This is what William tried to suggest to Harry, but we know how that turned out! (One of the first things that made Harry upset with William and Kate when talking of a future with Meghan.) Harry had at least two previous relationships where the women saw the writing on the wall and realized it wasn’t for them.

BTW I saw today that H&M are trying to tone down some of the material they’ve done for Netflix now, but may not be able to. Between that and the book, the family may be in for quite the rough ride. I wonder what their thought process was to change their minds?

Yes Harry WAS dumped by two long term girlfriends. MM threatened him early on...now or never. He caved to her demands. Big mistake...played him like a fiddle. IMO

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Oh come on. It's not that black and white. Of course at a certain point there's absolutely nothing science can do and no amount of money that will make a difference. But there's a whole range of services available to those with the cash to dedicate to the process leading up to that point.

Ultimately it's not in anybody's best interest to rush into something like this. And it appears the result bears that out. She appears to have struggled greatly, and perhaps being better prepared could have made those early days easier for them.

Huh? I’ve spent the last 7 years in the world of advanced-maternal-age pregnancies and I didn’t say anything in my post that isn’t backed by science. Women can carry a pregnancy at older ages, even past menopause, if they are using embryos formed using younger eggs either from a donor or their own, frozen. But if they’re trying to get pregnant with their own present-day eggs then yes, age matters a whole lot.

A woman probably wouldn’t have too many issues getting pregnant with the first kid at 37 and having the child around 38, but by the time she recovers from that birth and is ready to try for #2, she’ll be approaching 40 and things really do get more difficult by then. A 40 year old woman only has a 5% chance of conceiving each month. And, it’s not just a matter of getting pregnant, it’s a matter of staying pregnant. Miscarriage rates are higher because, as you can see below, less than 50% of a woman’s eggs are normal by her late 30s. Chromosomal abnormalities become more prevalent with age and older mothers have higher risk pregnancies, as well.


“Graphic 3 shows that on average there is a decline in female fertility starting in the mid-thirties, with lower fertility especially after the age of 35. Women’s fertility will continue to decrease every year, whether or not she is healthy and fit because the number and quality of the eggs decreases with age. Even if a woman is not ovulating (for example if she is taking the contraceptive pill, or is pregnant), the number of eggs continues to decline at the same rate. How quick a woman’s fertility declines will depend on a combination of genetic and lifestyle (e.g. smoking) factors.”




Of course, this is where someone is going to chime in to say their mother got pregnant with them accidentally at age 45. Yes, it happens. There are always statistical outliers and exceptions to every rule. But, if you’re starting out trying to build a family, assuming you’ll be the one to beat the odds isn’t a safe bet. It’s completely understandable that a woman in her mid-to-late thirties would feel like she doesn’t have time to waste.

H&M were together roughly two years before getting married (thanks again Google!) which isn’t, IMO, rushing into it. They certainly didn’t have another 5+ years to wait while she got a feel for royal life, though.

Ultimately, I think they are both happier in the lives they’re living now so, lucky for them, it all worked out for the best.

 

[mom2rtk]

Huh? I’ve spent the last 7 years in the world of advanced-maternal-age pregnancies and I didn’t say anything in my post that isn’t backed by science. Women can carry a pregnancy at older ages, even past menopause, if they are using embryos formed using younger eggs either from a donor or their own, frozen. But if they’re trying to get pregnant with their own present-day eggs then yes, age matters a whole lot.

A woman probably wouldn’t have too many issues getting pregnant with the first kid at 37 and having the child around 38, but by the time she recovers from that birth and is ready to try for #2, she’ll be approaching 40 and things really do get more difficult by then. A 40 year old woman only has a 5% chance of conceiving each month. And, it’s not just a matter of getting pregnant, it’s a matter of staying pregnant. Miscarriage rates are higher because, as you can see below, less than 50% of a woman’s eggs are normal by her late 30s. Chromosomal abnormalities become more prevalent with age and older mothers have higher risk pregnancies, as well.

View attachment 708503
“Graphic 3 shows that on average there is a decline in female fertility starting in the mid-thirties, with lower fertility especially after the age of 35. Women’s fertility will continue to decrease every year, whether or not she is healthy and fit because the number and quality of the eggs decreases with age. Even if a woman is not ovulating (for example if she is taking the contraceptive pill, or is pregnant), the number of eggs continues to decline at the same rate. How quick a woman’s fertility declines will depend on a combination of genetic and lifestyle (e.g. smoking) factors.”


View attachment 708504

Of course, this is where someone is going to chime in to say their mother got pregnant with them accidentally at age 45. Yes, it happens. There are always statistical outliers and exceptions to every rule. But, if you’re starting out trying to build a family, assuming you’ll be the one to beat the odds isn’t a safe bet. It’s completely understandable that a woman in her mid-to-late thirties would feel like doesn’t have time to waste.

H&M were together roughly two years before getting married (thanks again Google!) which isn’t, IMO, rushing into it. They certainly didn’t have another 5+ years to wait while she got a feel for royal life, though.

Ultimately, I think they are both happier in the lives they’re living now so, lucky for them, it all worked out for the best.

I have 3 children all conceived with the assistance of a Reproductive Endocrinologist. l don't need an education on any of this. But thanks.

None of that matters if you haven't laid the proper groundwork. And while 2 years might be fine for us peasants, I still don't think it's enough for what she was about to step into. And the proof is in the pudding. She was apparently terribly overwhelmed by all of it.

 

[snappy]

I have 3 children all conceived with the assistance of a Reproductive Endocrinologist. l don't need an education on any of this. But thanks.

None of that matters if you haven't laid the proper groundwork. And while 2 years might be fine for us peasants, I still don't think it's enough for what she was about to step into. And the proof is in the pudding. She was apparently terribly overwhelmed by all of it.

She has been very vocal about how overwhelmed she is for sure.

 

[NotUrsula]

Harry was always a weirdly prominent spare, and (due to his mother's premature death) has WAY more money than is usual for someone in his position. He really didn't *have* to do any of the usual royal duties required of the spares after he inherited his money; unlike his paternal uncles he was no longer dependent on his parents for enough money to maintain his position and lifestyle. Harry probably could have stayed in the Army and ridden a desk until he finished his 20, and that probably would have been best for him, but I think he has mixed feelings about the public eye: he dislikes being watched and judged, but he seems very drawn to the potential power of celebrity status. Trouble is, you really can't have one of those without tolerating the other.

It's interesting to wonder what might have become of Harry had his mother lived to spend her own money, sparing him both the loss and the glaring spotlight that would have faded as he (and she) grew older, and leaving him with a lot less independent wealth. I'm old enough to remember how fond the press was of chasing Princess Margaret once upon a time. They lost interest as she got older and was replaced by fresher subjects, and the same almost surely would have happened to Diana and Harry, and probably long before now.

We in the States had our own example of the Little Boy Lost: JFK, Jr. Remember how the press used to follow him around? (Even though they lost their father in the same tragic way, none of RFK's children were really followed that much, even when they did scandalous things, probably because there never had been a famous photo of any of them saluting a coffin at age 3, and of course, because Ethel never looked or sounded like Jackie.)

 

[Marrila]

She has been very vocal about how overwhelmed she is for sure.

It's odd. Both her parents are still living. That's a blessing. Her dad made sure she had a very nice upbringing, and paid for her college education. She was married, divorced and then in her mid-30's met Harry.
She wasn't a young 19 or 24 when she married into the Royal Family.
But, maybe taking time to listen and learn about the UK and the RF wasn't her deal.
Now 41, back in her beloved Cali, it would seem she would be on a path that makes her reasonably happy. She's home.

 

[Allison]

I just think it’s funny that Meghan took a picture in front of Buckingham Palace and allegedly read a book about Diana in her teens and people accuse her of playing the long game to marry into the royal family, social climbing, gold digging, etc. But the idea that Kate may have chosen her university in order to gain access to William has people praising mother’s intuition and their supposedly happy relationship, shrugging off whatever her intentions may have been, and then getting the warm fuzzies over the kids having grandparents. All, part, or none of these rumors might be true but the double standard in how these two women are perceived is just incredible.

And, uh, there is nothing remotely normal about the privileged fishbowl those kids are being raised in.

I agree with you.

 

[NotUrsula]

It's odd. Both her parents are still living. That's a blessing. Her dad made sure she had a very nice upbringing, and paid for her college education. She was married, divorced and then in her mid-30's met Harry.
She wasn't a young 19 or 24 when she married into the Royal Family.
But, maybe taking time to listen and learn about the UK and the RF wasn't her deal.
Now 41, back in her beloved Cali, it would seem she would be on a path that makes her reasonably happy. She's home.

Unfortunately for the two of them, it's a *very* expensive path, and staying solidly on it in the style to which they are accustomed will cost more money than even they have. Thus, the determination to stay firmly in the celebrity spotlight so that their fame can be monetized, because that's the most efficient way for them to maintain that level of income. They claim to hate press attention, but if so, they seem to be nonetheless voluntarily swallowing the jagged little pill.

 

[anniemae]

Does anyone thing H and M made amends with the family while they were there for the funeral? I keep reading that H and M are trying to tone down the book and the Netflix series. I wonder if they are trying to keep the peace with the family?

 

[Skywalker]

Does anyone thing H and M made amends with the family while they were there for the funeral? I keep reading that H and M are trying to tone down the book and the Netflix series. I wonder if they are trying to keep the peace with the family?

I hope they started to make amends. The rift between William and Harry was so unexpected and sad. They seemed like best friends for so long. I truly hope inroads were made.

Now, to put my skeptic's hat on, part of me thinks their scramble to tone things down is...they are reading the room about Queen Elizabeth's death, the outpouring of grief, and continued affection for the Royal Family. So, not wanting to come across like cold and soulless clods, they want to walk some things back.

I really do hope its the first one.

 

[BayouQueen]

Does anyone thing H and M made amends with the family while they were there for the funeral? I keep reading that H and M are trying to tone down the book and the Netflix series. I wonder if they are trying to keep the peace with the family?

Personally I do not think so.
The day after the great photo was released of "the four" -- the new King and future king along with Camilla and Catherine -- H&M released a photo of the two of them with her looking like she was ready to take on the world. To me it seemed like they were throwing down the gauntlet.
Frankly, I was disappointed. I always think of what an amazing impact Meghan could have as a beautiful, talented and charismatic woman of color married to a prince of the UK. I don't think the path she has chosen will have as much impact. Lost opportunity, in my view. Others disagree, I know. Time will tell how things pan out for these two.

 

[Karin1984]

I still wonder what to believe about wanting to delay Netflix. Most newspapers copy the news 'H&M want to tone it down', but there was one article saying 'Netflix wants to delay, there is just not enough content'.
If there isn't enough content, then it's not really going to be a 'keeping up with the Sussexes' and it will only focus on their charity work. There hasn't been a lot of that.
If it's about toning down, that means there are a lot of personal interviews and it's about being royal. And it might be more about the love story as Meghan claimed in the Cut interview.

 

[DisneyMommyMichelle]

I'm confused now though. I thought they left because of the way Meghan was treated and the demands placed upon her. Are you saying he wanted to leave before any of that took place?

Interesting question!

 

[NotUrsula]

Absolutely Harry wanted out of most of his official duty calendar, probably since his teens, and certainly since his money came through. The tricky part was that he wanted to continue being the Patron Saint of Wounded Veterans, but ditch everything else, kind of as if you'd told your boss; "Well, I like actually signing checks, but you'll have to find someone else to do the rest of it. FYI, I'll only be working on Mondays from here on out, but I'm keeping the top-floor corner office because it has a really nice view."

Basically, QEII informed him that that isn't how it works. You don't get to be the Patron Saint of anything unless you also empty the rubbish bins & polish 10 staircases per week, figuratively speaking. And furthermore, there is a labor & cash-flow shortage right now, so ixnay on us paying an assistant to empty baskets and shake the feather duster for you.

 

[Karin1984]

They would have had lots of help if they had trouble having kids. More than I could afford for sure. Still not a good reason to rush.

I'm confused now though. I thought they left because of the way Meghan was treated and the demands placed upon her. Are you saying he wanted to leave before any of that took place?

Very very likely yes. Harry was not happy with his position before Meghan came by. He was unhappy with the grey suit and being a prince and being the spare, before Meghan came along. His relationship with the press was complicated, on one hand he was having drinks with the press after engagements, on the other hand he was paranoid about the press already, asking previous girlfriends to hide under a blanket in the car as they went to a restaurant.

I think there are two options:
- Meghan's personality helped with making the decision. Meghan wasn't bothered by the long history and his family relationships. She has no problems with cutting people out of her life. To say 'if you are unhappy, then let's just leave', is probably very easy for her. I think the situation with Meghan was a reasonable excuse to leave, better than Harry wanting out, or Meghan's ambitions to be more/different than what her role as a senior royal required. The situation with how Meghan was treated might be a reason, I am not sure it was the most important reason. It was the easiest reason to understand for outsiders, and her being the victim would work well for American audiences.

- I personally wouldn't be surprised if they had discussed leaving very early in their relationship and it was all planned. That Meghan kept her lawyers in the US, didn't make a lot of effort to get her UK citizenship etc.
I think Harry wanted out, be his own person and mean something to the world, Meghan has global ambitions and reminds me of a narcissistic cult leader. She wants to lead, he needs someone to lead him, it would make sense to me to have a plan to get out from the start.

 

[mamamia2005]

- I personally wouldn't be surprised if they had discussed leaving very early in their relationship and it was all planned.

I've said it before in this thread, and also in the other H and M thread from a few months back - in the Oprah interview Meghan said that they had been planning to go their own way for three years. That would have meant they were planning the escape from pretty much when they got engaged. And it's not like they had a long courtship!

 

[FigmentSpark]

It was the Oprah interview that messed up H & M's relationship with the public, ultimately. When they were in Canada, Canadians were happy to have them. There were even a few stories about appointing Harry our Governor General, if he was wanting to stay in Canada. That would have still been representing his grandmother, but the job wouldn't have been as strenuous as the one he left.

Even when they moved to the US, we all felt that they just wanted to be around her mother because of the covid lockdown and, well, we all wanted to be near "home" and family, too, so that was okay.

But when this expose interview with Oprah came out, the game changed. Now they weren't just a young family looking to make their way in the world and wanting some freedom and privacy to do it. Now they were ready to attack the head of state of 15 countries. None of us liked it. Now it was "on". That began their use of the media (that they hated? and sued?) to bring about sympathy and dollars.

Now, they were suddenly celebrities willing to dish dirt on an institution that had lasted over a 1000 years, seemingly hoping to topple it. Make no mistake, there are people who would use them (Harry and Meghan) to do just that, even if that was never their intention. What they are doing may be benefitting them, but not the UK or Harry's family.

That's why they are not liked anymore.

 

[TippyThomas]

It was the Oprah interview that messed up H & M's relationship with the public, ultimately. When they were in Canada, Canadians were happy to have them. There were even a few stories about appointing Harry our Governor General, if he was wanting to stay in Canada. That would have still been representing his grandmother, but the job wouldn't have been as strenuous as the one he left.

Even when they moved to the US, we all felt that they just wanted to be around her mother because of the covid lockdown and, well, we all wanted to be near "home" and family, too, so that was okay.

But when this expose interview with Oprah came out, the game changed. Now they weren't just a young family looking to make their way in the world and wanting some freedom and privacy to do it. Now they were ready to attack the head of state of 15 countries. None of us liked it. Now it was "on". That began their use of the media (that they hated? and sued?) to bring about sympathy and dollars.

Now, they were suddenly celebrities willing to dish dirt on an institution that had lasted over a 1000 years, seemingly hoping to topple it. Make no mistake, there are people who would use them (Harry and Meghan) to do just that, even if that was never their intention. What they are doing may be benefitting them, but not the UK or Harry's family.

That's why they are not liked anymore.

I love them both.