Prosthesis and DAS

[brentm77]

If they (cars/airplanes) had been properly designed in the first place, it wouldn't be an issue. You are blaming the victim for the poor design choices of others. You asked for examples of companies saying you couldn't use your preferred tool. I did exactly what you asked. Don't move the goal posts.

I'm absolutely not blaming the victims and meant no offense. I would love if manufacturers made planes accessible, but the distinction I was making was a legal one. Discussing factual situations that are distinct under the law, assigns no blame. But I am sorry for not being more clear. I am trying to advocate for disabilities here, not bring anyone down.

Since it would be extremely expensive to provide the accommodations in your examples, they are legally different than giving someone a DAS pass when Disney has shown it is very possible to do by doing it for others. But, yes, it does become an undue hardship when the net of who gets one gets too big, which is Disney's reason for not giving them for mobility issues.

And why not then issue DAS to the 75 year old wiho's waiting for hip replacement but her hip is hurting now? And the 22 year old with arthroscopic knee repair last week? Those are all stamina/endurance issues. Disney does not want to be in the position of determining diagnosis or evaluating needs based on diagnoses. How would you expect them to respond to a diagnosis of fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva?

To put your argument succinctly, you are saying that if they open DAS for someone with a prosthesis, they must open it for everyone with mobility problems. This is the best argument against my point. However, I think there is a distinction here. In those situation, the person is likely using the mobility device already that allows them to wait in line. In my daughter's situation, she would literally be required to use a secondary mobility device in addition to the one she is comfortable with and that gives her the most access to the parks. It could even be a third mobility device Disney is requiring when she is using her prosthesis and arm crutches, which is common. While probably not legally required, I personally think it is bad taste to tell someone who is using a perfectly good mobility device to bring and extra one for the sole purpose of waiting in line.

For those who don't have any mobility device and say they could handle walking the parks, but not stand in line, I still think the distinction is they would be required to use one mobility device, not two or three, like my daughter. Or instead she would need to take an entire vacation using Disney's preferred mobility device if she doesn't want to take two or three devices to the park. That's a big impact on her compared to others.

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but the ADA requires it. It requires that each disability is individually assessed for accommodation purposes. I also think its the right thing for Disney to do.

You can't discriminate based on diagnosis in a public accommodation.

Actually, they are required by law to look at each disability individual, and allowed to provide different accommodations for different disabilities, which is exactly what Disney is doing by allowing DAS for disabilities X, Y, and Z, but not for mobility issues. That's not discrimination under the law. But I am arguing that the disability provided for someone who can walk normally with a prosthesis, but can't wear it for extended periods, is insufficient. Like I said, its fine if others disagree, but it won't stop me from advocating for my daughter.

 

[OurBigTrip]

This is a great point, and a good argument against my position. But I think it falls short because of important distinctions. The distinction here is that she would be required to get a mobility device in addition to her regular device, instead of one mobility device. The burden of taking two devices to the park could be substantial. It may even be three, since most people use arm crutches for a period after getting a prosthesis. Furthermore, she would be able to walk just fine, but would only limited by how long she can keep the prosthesis on. I think allowing her to enjoy walking and using her preferred mobility device is the right thing to do in this situation, even if not legally required.



I sympathize with your situation, but they are all examples of situations where it would cause an undue hardship, like completely redesigning airplanes or cars. Disney is already provide this accommodation to hundreds and it wouldn't be an undue hardship to extend it to those with mobility devices that work well to walk, but not for standing hours in line. Furthermore, my hypothetical is a situation where it isn't a stamina issue. She would be in a situation where she could walk just fine, but standing on a prothesis that long could cause injury. I just think it's a unique situation compared to somebody who doesn't have endurance, since it's somebody who is already using a mobility device that can be accommodated.

I just disagree with your arguments on every level. I get that she doesn’t want to use a wheelchair or scooter, but that’s her choice. Doesn’t mean she should get the desired accommodation.

 

[brentm77]

I just disagree with your arguments on every level. I get that she doesn’t want to use a wheelchair or scooter, but that’s her choice. Doesn’t mean she should get the desired accommodation.

Ok. That's fine. Disney agrees with you. Have a good one.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Ok. That's fine. Disney agrees with you.

Hopefully.

 

[SteveMouse]

I'm absolutely not blaming the victims and meant no offense. I would love if manufacturers made planes accessible, but the distinction I was making was a legal one. Discussing factual situations that are distinct under the law, assigns no blame. But I am sorry for not being more clear. I am trying to advocate for disabilities here, not bring anyone down.

Since it would be extremely expensive to provide the accommodations in your examples, they are legally different than giving someone a DAS pass when Disney has shown it is very possible to do by doing it for others. But, yes, it does become an undue hardship when the net of who gets one gets too big, which is Disney's reason for not giving them for mobility issues.


To put your argument succinctly, you are saying that if they open DAS for someone with a prosthesis, they must open it for everyone with mobility problems. This is the best argument against my point. However, I think there is a distinction here. In those situation, the person is likely using the mobility device already that allows them to wait in line. In my daughter's situation, she would literally be required to use a secondary mobility device in addition to the one she is comfortable with and that gives her the most access to the parks. It could even be a third mobility device Disney is requiring when she is using her prosthesis and arm crutches, which is common. While probably not legally required, I personally think it is bad taste to tell someone who is using a perfectly good mobility device to bring and extra one for the sole purpose of waiting in line.

For those who don't have any mobility device and say they could handle walking the parks, but not stand in line, I still think the distinction is they would be required to use one mobility device, not two or three, like my daughter. Or instead she would need to take an entire vacation using Disney's preferred mobility device if she doesn't want to take two or three devices to the park. That's a big impact on her compared to others.

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but the ADA requires it. It requires that each disability is individually assessed for accommodation purposes. I also think its the right thing for Disney to do.



Actually, they are required by law to look at each disability individual, and allowed to provide different accommodations for different disabilities, which is exactly what Disney is doing by allowing DAS for disabilities X, Y, and Z, but not for mobility issues. That's not discrimination under the law. But I am arguing that the disability provided for someone who can walk normally with a prosthesis, but can't wear it for extended periods, is insufficient. Like I said, its fine if others disagree, but it won't stop me from advocating for my daughter.

To clarify the last point: providing a different accommodation under the ADA based soley on the diagnosis name would be an issue under the law (equality under the law).

 

[luvpoohandcompany]

@brentm77 I’m really hoping your daughter gets approved for DAS as it seems like it would solve the issues she has with waiting in line. Seems to me she is dealing with more than enough right now and DAS would make a difficult situation a lot easier for her. If it was me I’d just be honest in the interview and explain the difficulties she faces and why it would help to be able to wait outside of the line. Wishing you the very best

 

[DisneyOma]

Disney's position is that the use of a wheelchair, ecv, rollator, walker, or other device meeting safety requirements is a method for addressing the problem. A number of years ago, there was a suit against Disney regarding the use of Segways as an accommodation. At the end of day, Segways and similar devices are now not permitted in the parks.

I thought Segways were still banned, as all mobility devices had to have at least 3 wheels on the ground at all times?

 

[mamabunny]

I'm absolutely not blaming the victims and meant no offense. I would love if manufacturers made planes accessible, but the distinction I was making was a legal one. Discussing factual situations that are distinct under the law, assigns no blame. But I am sorry for not being more clear. I am trying to advocate for disabilities here, not bring anyone down.

Since it would be extremely expensive to provide the accommodations in your examples, they are legally different than giving someone a DAS pass when Disney has shown it is very possible to do by doing it for others. But, yes, it does become an undue hardship when the net of who gets one gets too big, which is Disney's reason for not giving them for mobility issues.


To put your argument succinctly, you are saying that if they open DAS for someone with a prosthesis, they must open it for everyone with mobility problems. This is the best argument against my point. However, I think there is a distinction here. In those situation, the person is likely using the mobility device already that allows them to wait in line. In my daughter's situation, she would literally be required to use a secondary mobility device in addition to the one she is comfortable with and that gives her the most access to the parks. It could even be a third mobility device Disney is requiring when she is using her prosthesis and arm crutches, which is common. While probably not legally required, I personally think it is bad taste to tell someone who is using a perfectly good mobility device to bring and extra one for the sole purpose of waiting in line.

For those who don't have any mobility device and say they could handle walking the parks, but not stand in line, I still think the distinction is they would be required to use one mobility device, not two or three, like my daughter. Or instead she would need to take an entire vacation using Disney's preferred mobility device if she doesn't want to take two or three devices to the park. That's a big impact on her compared to others.

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but the ADA requires it. It requires that each disability is individually assessed for accommodation purposes. I also think its the right thing for Disney to do.



Actually, they are required by law to look at each disability individual, and allowed to provide different accommodations for different disabilities, which is exactly what Disney is doing by allowing DAS for disabilities X, Y, and Z, but not for mobility issues. That's not discrimination under the law. But I am arguing that the disability provided for someone who can walk normally with a prosthesis, but can't wear it for extended periods, is insufficient. Like I said, its fine if others disagree, but it won't stop me from advocating for my daughter.

I have read all your posts in this thread. You are very clearly a logical person, and most importantly, a strong advocate for your child. She is very lucky to have you.

There’s a few things I hope you will take under consideration:

First, *no one* who goes to Disney World and has to use *any* form of mobility device or assistive device wants to use that device. No one. If dreams *really* came true at WDW, there would be a mountain of mobility devices and aides left to rot at the Main Gate.

Instead, most of us pick from the assortment of devices that are [A] most commonly available, ideally fit our budget, or are covered by our insurance, and [C] are easiest and/or most appropriate for our particular mobility issue.

I understand that you are trying to make the point that in order to have “perfect” mobility at WDW, your child would need to bring 3 discrete devices with her into the Parks. The reality of WDW as a mobility-impaired person is that (typically) the majority of us will choose 1 device that will enable us to move around with the least amount of pain and/or physical damage, offers the most overall comfort - and will create the best possible experience and outcome.

Is it perfect? No. Never. For me, personally, if I got to choose how I got around Disney World, Gaston would sweep me up in his arms, and carry me about all day, every day (I’m kidding… sort of… ) But since Gaston is busy, I make do by bringing one of my devices from home, depending on factors like the length of the trip, when my last flare was, and the time of year, as well as any special events we will attend while at WDW, how long I think I will be in the device each day, etc. And no matter which device I pick, in the end it is a compromise every time.

We have to remember that a mobility device - of any kind - is just a tool to get a job done, right? So, we pick the device to meet the needs of the job at hand… just like a hammer is the proper tool to pound a nail. A calculator is a tool to do math. Glasses are a tool to see better. Hearing aids are a tool to hear better, etc. They are all tools, and ideally, we match the best tool with the situation.

There are ways to bring more than 1 device into the Parks; For example, some people will bring a cane, or walker, and then use bungee cords to attach it to the back of a scooter or wheelchair. There are folding canes, compact Rollators the size of umbrella strollers, there are any number of cool looking scooters (not all of them are “granny scooters”) as well as more aesthetically pleasing wheelchairs, etc.

We have folks who push their wheelchair when they want/need to walk, instead of bringing both a rollator and wheelchair; they have a way to walk supported, but a seat when they need it most. We have some who walk with a folding cane at times, while a family member drives the scooter until they need it. And we have folks who walk up through Security, but then leave their Rollator or walker with Scooter Rental, and then drive a scooter all day. We find ways to bend *this* world to our will, and then we go on and have fun.

I know that none of these suggestions may work for your child. I strongly encourage you and your family to work with your child and their medical team (including their PT) to see if there are ways to adapt strategies for the use of one single device when in a situation like WDW. Because as your child continues to grow, you will find that the world around them is not nearly as accommodating and friendly as Walt Disney World is. As tough as this feels right now, just to figure out how to do this vacation thing, there awaits a veritable jungle of disappointments and difficulties in the wider world, outside the gates of the Magic Kingdom.

Welcome to our community. I know that it may feel like we don’t have any real solutions for you and your child, but I promise, this can be a great resource for you and your family.

I hope you will stick around, and help those who come behind you. There’s no gatekeeping here, and we try to share information while setting realistic and proper expectations. We also keep Disney’s official rules firmly in mind as well. There’s a lot to learn here for everyone who is in need of the information.

Take care - of both yourself and your child. You have lived through so much, and I’m sure it has felt like someone pulled the rug out from under you, and then beat you up with it. It gets better, but there’s no shortcut to the part where everything feels “normal” again. That’s OK, because “normal” is just a setting on the washing machine.

Welcome, new friend.

 

[mamabunny]

I thought Segways were still banned, as all mobility devices had to have at least 3 wheels on the ground at all times?

Right - that’s what @SteveMouse was saying; the Segways are now banned as a result of that court case.

 

[brentm77]

I have read all your posts in this thread. You are very clearly a logical person, and most importantly, a strong advocate for your child. She is very lucky to have you.

There’s a few things I hope you will take under consideration:

First, *no one* who goes to Disney World and has to use *any* form of mobility device or assistive device wants to use that device. No one. If dreams *really* came true at WDW, there would be a mountain of mobility devices and aides left to rot at the Main Gate.

Instead, most of us pick from the assortment of devices that are [A] most commonly available, ideally fit our budget, or are covered by our insurance, and [C] are easiest and/or most appropriate for our particular mobility issue.

I understand that you are trying to make the point that in order to have “perfect” mobility at WDW, your child would need to bring 3 discrete devices with her into the Parks. The reality of WDW as a mobility-impaired person is that (typically) the majority of us will choose 1 device that will enable us to move around with the least amount of pain and/or physical damage, offers the most overall comfort - and will create the best possible experience and outcome.

Is it perfect? No. Never. For me, personally, if I got to choose how I got around Disney World, Gaston would sweep me up in his arms, and carry me about all day, every day (I’m kidding… sort of… ) But since Gaston is busy, I make do by bringing one of my devices from home, depending on factors like the length of the trip, when my last flare was, and the time of year, as well as any special events we will attend while at WDW, how long I think I will be in the device each day, etc. And no matter which device I pick, in the end it is a compromise every time.

We have to remember that a mobility device - of any kind - is just a tool to get a job done, right? So, we pick the device to meet the needs of the job at hand… just like a hammer is the proper tool to pound a nail. A calculator is a tool to do math. Glasses are a tool to see better. Hearing aids are a tool to hear better, etc. They are all tools, and ideally, we match the best tool with the situation.

There are ways to bring more than 1 device into the Parks; For example, some people will bring a cane, or walker, and then use bungee cords to attach it to the back of a scooter or wheelchair. There are folding canes, compact Rollators the size of umbrella strollers, there are any number of cool looking scooters (not all of them are “granny scooters”) as well as more aesthetically pleasing wheelchairs, etc.

We have folks who push their wheelchair when they want/need to walk, instead of bringing both a rollator and wheelchair; they have a way to walk supported, but a seat when they need it most. We have some who walk with a folding cane at times, while a family member drives the scooter until they need it. And we have folks who walk up through Security, but then leave their Rollator or walker with Scooter Rental, and then drive a scooter all day. We find ways to bend *this* world to our will, and then we go on and have fun.

I know that none of these suggestions may work for your child. I strongly encourage you and your family to work with your child and their medical team (including their PT) to see if there are ways to adapt strategies for the use of one single device when in a situation like WDW. Because as your child continues to grow, you will find that the world around them is not nearly as accommodating and friendly as Walt Disney World is. As tough as this feels right now, just to figure out how to do this vacation thing, there awaits a veritable jungle of disappointments and difficulties in the wider world, outside the gates of the Magic Kingdom.

Welcome to our community. I know that it may feel like we don’t have any real solutions for you and your child, but I promise, this can be a great resource for you and your family.

I hope you will stick around, and help those who come behind you. There’s no gatekeeping here, and we try to share information while setting realistic and proper expectations. We also keep Disney’s official rules firmly in mind as well. There’s a lot to learn here for everyone who is in need of the information.

Take care - of both yourself and your child. You have lived through so much, and I’m sure it has felt like someone pulled the rug out from under you, and then beat you up with it. It gets better, but there’s no shortcut to the part where everything feels “normal” again. That’s OK, because “normal” is just a setting on the washing machine.

Welcome, new friend.

Thank you for your kinds comments. You have given me a lot to think about.

Disney really does go above and beyond in many areas when it comes to disabilities. For example, the ADA room we had at the Polynesian recently was well thought out and so easy for my daughter to use. Or the way the ride vehicle on Ratatouille pulls into a private area where she could take her time boarding. And I realize they need to draw the line somewhere on DAS, or it would make it useless and ruin lightening lanes, I just have a different opinion on where that line should be drawn as opposed to the sweeping distinction Disney seems to make between mental and physical disabilities, since there is so much variation in disabilities. But, I know that I am not in a position to be objective right now, plus I am talking about a hypothetical that won't happen for at least a couple of years. Heck, for all I know, she may always prefer her wheelchair for a full day at the parks.

It's a great community here, and I appreciate you welcoming me into it. We have found the community we are encountering everywhere to be one of the few silver linings in this experience.

In any case, I will let it go now and focus on finding the best solution for her when/if the time comes. I understand the opposing viewpoints to mine, and can see why the majority of people disagree with me. But, again, thanks for the insight, and for the rest of you giving me a chance to be heard and work through some of my concerns! I will move along now and let the issue go.

 

[SteveMouse]

I'm absolutely not blaming the victims and meant no offense. I would love if manufacturers made planes accessible, but the distinction I was making was a legal one. Discussing factual situations that are distinct under the law, assigns no blame. But I am sorry for not being more clear. I am trying to advocate for disabilities here, not bring anyone down.

Since it would be extremely expensive to provide the accommodations in your examples, they are legally different than giving someone a DAS pass when Disney has shown it is very possible to do by doing it for others. But, yes, it does become an undue hardship when the net of who gets one gets too big, which is Disney's reason for not giving them for mobility issues.


To put your argument succinctly, you are saying that if they open DAS for someone with a prosthesis, they must open it for everyone with mobility problems. This is the best argument against my point. However, I think there is a distinction here. In those situation, the person is likely using the mobility device already that allows them to wait in line. In my daughter's situation, she would literally be required to use a secondary mobility device in addition to the one she is comfortable with and that gives her the most access to the parks. It could even be a third mobility device Disney is requiring when she is using her prosthesis and arm crutches, which is common. While probably not legally required, I personally think it is bad taste to tell someone who is using a perfectly good mobility device to bring and extra one for the sole purpose of waiting in line.

For those who don't have any mobility device and say they could handle walking the parks, but not stand in line, I still think the distinction is they would be required to use one mobility device, not two or three, like my daughter. Or instead she would need to take an entire vacation using Disney's preferred mobility device if she doesn't want to take two or three devices to the park. That's a big impact on her compared to others.

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but the ADA requires it. It requires that each disability is individually assessed for accommodation purposes. I also think its the right thing for Disney to do.



Actually, they are required by law to look at each disability individual, and allowed to provide different accommodations for different disabilities, which is exactly what Disney is doing by allowing DAS for disabilities X, Y, and Z, but not for mobility issues. That's not discrimination under the law. But I am arguing that the disability provided for someone who can walk normally with a prosthesis, but can't wear it for extended periods, is insufficient. Like I said, its fine if others disagree, but it won't stop me from advocating for my daughter.

I often have to use multiple DME because the world doesn't accommodate my standard power wheelchair very well. I can't stand or walk independently. I also cannot slide or bump transfer from or into my wheelchzir. So, I need a rollator. And a hoist. Because most ride vehicles don't accommodate my wheelchair, which is standard sized powerchair.

There has been some work in the last few years about self-driving vehicles for shared rides. Giuess what? Only one group, Cruise, built demos that accommodated wheelchairs. Cruise's future is uncertain. What are the chances the other developers will go back and add wheelchair access prior to actually releasing product? Tesla is unlikely to. The excuse will be "it's too expensive to redesign..." Taxis will disappear and the wheelchair users will be stuck with no options. .No transportation means no job opportunities, limited access to health care, and no social life. And an expensive existence.

 

[DisneyOma]

Right - that’s what @SteveMouse was saying; the Segways are now banned as a result of that court case.

You're right - I've got to learn to read twice, post once!

 

[DisneyOma]

I'm absolutely not blaming the victims and meant no offense. I would love if manufacturers made planes accessible, but the distinction I was making was a legal one. Discussing factual situations that are distinct under the law, assigns no blame. But I am sorry for not being more clear. I am trying to advocate for disabilities here, not bring anyone down.

Since it would be extremely expensive to provide the accommodations in your examples, they are legally different than giving someone a DAS pass when Disney has shown it is very possible to do by doing it for others. But, yes, it does become an undue hardship when the net of who gets one gets too big, which is Disney's reason for not giving them for mobility issues.


To put your argument succinctly, you are saying that if they open DAS for someone with a prosthesis, they must open it for everyone with mobility problems. This is the best argument against my point. However, I think there is a distinction here. In those situation, the person is likely using the mobility device already that allows them to wait in line. In my daughter's situation, she would literally be required to use a secondary mobility device in addition to the one she is comfortable with and that gives her the most access to the parks. It could even be a third mobility device Disney is requiring when she is using her prosthesis and arm crutches, which is common. While probably not legally required, I personally think it is bad taste to tell someone who is using a perfectly good mobility device to bring and extra one for the sole purpose of waiting in line.

For those who don't have any mobility device and say they could handle walking the parks, but not stand in line, I still think the distinction is they would be required to use one mobility device, not two or three, like my daughter. Or instead she would need to take an entire vacation using Disney's preferred mobility device if she doesn't want to take two or three devices to the park. That's a big impact on her compared to others.

It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but the ADA requires it. It requires that each disability is individually assessed for accommodation purposes. I also think its the right thing for Disney to do.



Actually, they are required by law to look at each disability individual, and allowed to provide different accommodations for different disabilities, which is exactly what Disney is doing by allowing DAS for disabilities X, Y, and Z, but not for mobility issues. That's not discrimination under the law. But I am arguing that the disability provided for someone who can walk normally with a prosthesis, but can't wear it for extended periods, is insufficient. Like I said, its fine if others disagree, but it won't stop me from advocating for my daughter.

I think the issue is that you are counting mobility devices, while Disney is stating that if there is a mobility device that eliminates the problem of being in a standard queue then the guest needs to use that instead of DAS. So it's not that someone should only have to use one device; it's more that if there is something out there readily available that works (like a rollator or wheelchair or a knee scooter - we've had someone on our group use one of those) then it is expected that the guest will use it. I mean, DAS is only going to give her a return time, not a place to sit nearby. She'd still have to walk, look for a place to sit, etc. Bringing that "seat" with you would be the most responsible thing to do, IMO.

 

[brentm77]

I think the issue is that you are counting mobility devices, while Disney is stating that if there is a mobility device that eliminates the problem of being in a standard queue then the guest needs to use that instead of DAS. So it's not that someone should only have to use one device; it's more that if there is something out there readily available that works (like a rollator or wheelchair or a knee scooter - we've had someone on our group use one of those) then it is expected that the guest will use it. I mean, DAS is only going to give her a return time, not a place to sit nearby. She'd still have to walk, look for a place to sit, etc. Bringing that "seat" with you would be the most responsible thing to do, IMO.

That is a perfectly reasonable argument. I think I a coming around to seeing it that way. When I really think about it, she will be in the position to either use a chair, or choose to take breaks as needed to remove her prosthesis and then wait in lines after a break. I was looking at it from the perspective of needing to ride rides all day, one after another, but the reality is, that's not a necessity. And if she wants to do that, she could choose to use her chair to make it possible.

Furthermore, we have the option for buying Genie+ or lightening lanes for many rides, which is an acceptable solution for her too.

It's been a thought provoking discussion. I appreciate the respectful pushback from everyone.

 

[elvispursley]

I’m an OT and have worked with both upper and lower prostethics. I totally see both sides of the arguments being made. I’m so sorry your DD and your family are having to adjust to a new “normal”. I would absolutely check with your PT and maybe her orthotist (our orthotists alway were up for consults if we or any of our patients had questions). She may indeed want to take her wc so she can give her residual limb a break, if not from the forced put through the limb but as well as a break from th silicone sleeve. I’d also make sure she take takes lots of liners to change throughout the day. A hot, sweaty limb Is prone to skin breakdown.

In a personal note, my BFF’s husband has bilateral below knee amputations. When they visit d us here in Hawaii, he spent most of his time using his chair as his limbs just couldn’t take the weather and sightseeing we were doing, even after 8 yrs from when he had his surgery.

Everyine is different but in case your DD can’t get DAS, I’d definitely take the chair so she has a place to sit for parades, shows, etc. And that chair becomes a great place to hang a park bag! I’d rather have it than realize you need it after the fact and have to rent one WDW chairs, which leave much to be desired!