Problems/fraud in resales

[JimMIA]

Quite often, you see posts asking about the safety of timeshares generally, and the resale market in particular. The vast majority of realtors, closing agents, title insurance agents, buyers, and sellers are legitimate people, and most transactions go through without a hitch. Part of that is because most of the people are honest, and part of it is because this is one of the most tightly regulated industries in Florida..

Despite that, you will occasionally see situations where it is obvious that one or more parties have been either incompetent, dishonest, or both. It is good to remember the watchword of fraud investigators: “Fraud looks a lot like stupid.” If you start to see a pattern of “stupid misteaks,” the prudent consumer will wonder whether they are really mistakes at all.

If you encounter issues in your transactions which “look a lot like stupid” – for example, sellers reneging on contracts, escrow deposits not made in a timely manner as required by law, tardiness in receiving refunds of escrow deposits, unexpected charges – below are listed the appropriate Florida governmental agencies to contact to initiate an inquiry.

Realtors:
Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation
Division of Florida Land Sales, Condominiums and Mobile Homes
http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/lsc/index.shtml
Timeshare Complaint Form: http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/lsc/timeshare/forms/complaint_english.pdf

Title (closing) Agents:
Florida Department of Financial Services
Division of Agents and Agencies
http://www.fldfs.com/Agents/
Consumer help line: 1-800-342-2762

 

[dianeschlicht]

Would losing folks signed papers and checks after they have been signed for at the office fall into that catagory?

 

[DrTomorrow]

Would losing folks signed papers and checks after they have been signed for at the office fall into that catagory?

Hmmm, that's what I was going to ask....

 

[spiceycat]

I would yes!

 

[JimMIA]

Would losing folks signed papers and checks after they have been signed for at the office fall into that catagory?

I don't want to make specific recommendations to others, because what you do is your decision, not mine. I will tell you what my attitude is about reporting things that "look a lot like stupid," but first I need to explain a couple of things.

Auditors, regulators, fraud examiners, etc. look for "red flags." Red flags do NOT mean there is any wrongdoing. They just mean something is unusual and needs to be evaluated. In some cases, that means nothing more than comparing this piece of information with hundreds of other pieces of information to see if there is a pattern which could be problematic. Other types of red flags are much more serious and might trigger an immediate investigation. Rarely does one piece of information, on it's face, give a clear indication of a real problem.

So what regulators do with information they receive is evaluate it in light of what they know about the industry, that particular business, the nature of the transaction involved, etc. Most of the time, they take no further action.

Other times, they may take action when you wouldn't expect it. For example, an initial complaint might be about sloppy business practices, and it might be pretty clear from the facts that there is no wrongdoing -- just sloppy. But the prudent regulator knows businesses aren't just sloppy in one part of the organization, so they might also ask themselves, "If they're that sloppy...how well are they safeguarding consumer's interests in the rest of their practice?" In that scenario, they might want to go take a look to see whether appropriate safeguards are in place, and are being followed.

Without the input of information from consumers, the regulators have to wait for much more blatant issues to come to the surface and problems can go unaddressed for a long time. As consumers, we have access to the front-line information but we don't have the perspective the regulator has to evaluate the bits of information accurately. So I personally would report anything that happened to me that I was uncomfortable with.

I would not report something that happened to someone else, because at best I only know part of one side of the story. There is a lot I don't know about that side of the story, and there may be 4-5 other sides to the story I don't even know exist.

If I made a report, it would not be an accusation against anyone. I would just report the facts I know and tell the regulator, "I just thought you ought to know." They'll look at it, and if it looks like a problem to them, they'll look further.

 

[Daitcher]

Would losing folks signed papers and checks after they have been signed for at the office fall into that catagory?

NO. Sometimes things get lost. Haven't you ever lost anything? And yes I know you stated in the past that your papers and check was lost by DVC. DVC is not going to risk their reputation by somehow swindling potential timeshare owners. I t was an honest mistake and as we all know these things happen. Talk about beating a dead horse....... let it go. We know they lost your paperwork.


DAVE

 

[JimMIA]

Bumping this up so a new victim can find it.

 

[dianeschlicht]

NO. Sometimes things get lost. Haven't you ever lost anything? And yes I know you stated in the past that your papers and check was lost by DVC. DVC is not going to risk their reputation by somehow swindling potential timeshare owners. I t was an honest mistake and as we all know these things happen. Talk about beating a dead horse....... let it go. We know they lost your paperwork.

DAVE

Actually, I was not the one who had that problem. I just read about it here on the DIS.

 

[DrTomorrow]

[...] Talk about beating a dead horse....... let it go. We know they lost your paperwork.
DAVE

Um, that was someone else here on the DIS - make sure you're targeting the correct, er, horse-beater....

 

[dianeschlicht]

Hmm, if people are so sensitive to dead horse beating, maybe they need to excersise the right of not opening a thread.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

NO. Sometimes things get lost. Haven't you ever lost anything? And yes I know you stated in the past that your papers and check was lost by DVC. DVC is not going to risk their reputation by somehow swindling potential timeshare owners. I t was an honest mistake and as we all know these things happen. Talk about beating a dead horse....... let it go. We know they lost your paperwork.


DAVE

I may be wrong but I dont think it was even dvc who lost the paperwork in the first place,

so you can add an incorrect label to the above post to go along with the just plain outright rude label

 

[dianeschlicht]

Jim seems to be pretty astute in this area. Are you in the real Estate business? I think more and more people are understanding the value of prepaid vacations, and the revamping of many older timeshares into points systems like DVC seems to bear out that more folks are interested in investing in vacation time.

 

[JimMIA]

NO. Sometimes things get lost. Haven't you ever lost anything? And yes I know you stated in the past that your papers and check was lost by DVC. DVC is not going to risk their reputation by somehow swindling potential timeshare owners. I t was an honest mistake and as we all know these things happen. Talk about beating a dead horse....... let it go. We know they lost your paperwork.


DAVE

This is precisely the kind of situation I was talking about. In this situation, the regulators would look at it and ask themselves, "Is this just a simple mistake? Or are there administrative control issues there we should look at? Or is there wrongdoing?"

The answer to those questions would probably lie in how many contracts the company is processing, how many other complaints of lost stuff have come in, and how that compares to the rest of the industry. In that analysis, I'm sure DVC would come out a LOT better than the rest of the industry, and contacting the regulator would have no effect on their reputation whatsoever.

On the other hand, if the consumer says, "Well, this is just my one, isolated experience so I won't report it," that puts the regulators in a position of flying blind. If it really is an isolated occurrance, they are not going to do anything. But we don't have the overview they have, and we usually don't know whether a problem is isolated or widespread. I would err on the side of reporting, knowing that a reputable business has nothing to fear from regulators.

I agree that, other than venting benefits, it does little good to beat dead horses on these forums. I've seen some that were just laughable, but the darn things just wouldn't die! I've also seen them turn into those "contests" in which everybody who participates gets wet. Neither contributes much to the understanding or enjoyment of DVC, IMHO.

The intent of my postings here have been to give people the correct information about how to do something which is actually useful, rather than venting, if they are in a situation where they really should report something. Government bureauracy can be an intimidating mountain to climb, so I just wanted to cut through some of that and point the way to the right people to talk to, if in fact someone has a complaint.

 

[JimMIA]

Jim seems to be pretty astute in this area. Are you in the real Estate business?

HA! NO! You cut me to the quick, Diane! Actually, my background is law enforcement. I've had a good bit of experience with real estate/mortgage/title agent fraud (as an investigator, not a perpetrator!) I'm retired now and I teach fraud investigation professionally, mostly to CPA's and auditors, and I also do a little bit of expert witness work.

 

[dianeschlicht]

AHA! You are a very good investigator then!

 

[JimC]

I don't want to make specific recommendations to others, because what you do is your decision, not mine. I will tell you what my attitude is about reporting things that "look a lot like stupid," but first I need to explain a couple of things.

Auditors, regulators, fraud examiners, etc. look for "red flags." Red flags do NOT mean there is any wrongdoing. They just mean something is unusual and needs to be evaluated. In some cases, that means nothing more than comparing this piece of information with hundreds of other pieces of information to see if there is a pattern which could be problematic. Other types of red flags are much more serious and might trigger an immediate investigation. Rarely does one piece of information, on it's face, give a clear indication of a real problem.

So what regulators do with information they receive is evaluate it in light of what they know about the industry, that particular business, the nature of the transaction involved, etc. Most of the time, they take no further action.

Other times, they may take action when you wouldn't expect it. For example, an initial complaint might be about sloppy business practices, and it might be pretty clear from the facts that there is no wrongdoing -- just sloppy. But the prudent regulator knows businesses aren't just sloppy in one part of the organization, so they might also ask themselves, "If they're that sloppy...how well are they safeguarding consumer's interests in the rest of their practice?" In that scenario, they might want to go take a look to see whether appropriate safeguards are in place, and are being followed.

Without the input of information from consumers, the regulators have to wait for much more blatant issues to come to the surface and problems can go unaddressed for a long time. As consumers, we have access to the front-line information but we don't have the perspective the regulator has to evaluate the bits of information accurately. So I personally would report anything that happened to me that I was uncomfortable with.

I would not report something that happened to someone else, because at best I only know part of one side of the story. There is a lot I don't know about that side of the story, and there may be 4-5 other sides to the story I don't even know exist.

If I made a report, it would not be an accusation against anyone. I would just report the facts I know and tell the regulator, "I just thought you ought to know." They'll look at it, and if it looks like a problem to them, they'll look further.

Rational and very well said!

 

[JimMIA]

 

[CharlesTD]

Great post JIMMIA not many people look into things but your post is an eye opener and should be for people looking to purchase resale. Make the appropriate arrangements and ask the questions that need to be asked before sending anyone money or signing a document. Thanks for the links I am sure they will be invaluable to many.

 

[JimMIA]

Great post JIMMIA not many people look into things but your post is an eye opener and should be for people looking to purchase resale. Make the appropriate arrangements and ask the questions that need to be asked before sending anyone money or signing a document. Thanks for the links I am sure they will be invaluable to many.

Thanks. Two people I don't even know - but who are members of this community - just got royally shafted by unscrupulous people. If you want to see what I'm talking about, go over to the DVC Community forum and read the thread about "Seller backed out after passing ROFR," started by JoeEpcotRocks.

I can deal with my own problems with the resale system; I have the training and experience and contacts to do so. I was going to wait until after my closing, but when Joe and Laura got whatever'd, I figured it was time to stop biting my tongue and say something.

I hope it's helpful.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Your advice was and is very sound.