Problem in education

[CJMickeyMouse]

I will begin by saying again that I believe special ed children deserve an appropriate education.

But can you just imagine..... if each average, above average, gifted and profoundly gifted child had a full time one on one aide....... what THOSE children could accomplish??

 

[gottaluvPluto]

Do parents of gifted children take it upon themselves to provide the extra stimulation their children need? I am just curious about this.

Yes. I was also told by a teacher that I shouldn't do it because my child is too far ahead.

 

[Talking Hands]

The lowering of standards and expectations.
Teaching to the test
NCLB

 

[freckles and boo]

I will begin by saying again that I believe special ed children deserve an appropriate education.

But can you just imagine..... if each average, above average, gifted and profoundly gifted child had a full time one on one aide....... what THOSE children could accomplish??

Does an average, above average, or gifted child need an aide to function? Really? I wouldn't trade my children for any other children in the world but I would "undo" those unique challenges my younger daughter faces if I could. She doesn't have an aide because she is "special". She has one to facilitate her education. I can't wait for the day she doesn't need individualized help. It will happen. Until then I refuse to feel guilty about it nor will I accept that average or academically gifted children are being left in the dust because of it. I also have an "average" child who is receiving a very high-quality education in the same district. We aren't an exceptionally wealthy community but we value education and vote to support it when necessary.

 

[profdsny]

Parents, parents, parents.

Look at how many threads are on the DIS - all complaining about teachers, schools, policies. They act like schools should exist only for them.

Then at the opposite end of the spectrum are the parents who do not care at all.

.

So true. Every little Mary and Johny is the best behaved kid who NEVER causes trouble, it's always who he or she is sitting next to. Hah.
Then there are the ones who, when you grade a paper based on content only, raise a fit because there are no standards, but, grade it on how it was actually written and you are being overly picky.

 

[daughtersrus]

This is not in regards to those that just need a little help, but the idea of "inclusion" has gone too far. .

I think that what people forget is that special education is a service not a place. The spectrum is wide and can include anything from the child going to a resource room all the way to a residential program. Inclusion is just one part.

Now "inclusion" includes kids all over the spectrum, from dyslexia (which were the majority of problems when I went - and where SpEd was a great asset) to autism to severe physical and mental disabilities. .

How do you suggest that we determine who should be included and who should not? If it's by intelligence, then many children with autism are smarter than average children. If it also includes physical disabilities, than children with CP or Spina Bifida would be excluded even though they have normal intelligence.

She drew the line when a parent wanted her to change an 8 year old's diaper. This was in public school not a special school and these kids were included in the regular classroom..

So you're saying that because a child needs to wear a diaper, they shouldn't be included in the regular ed class?

Kids who unfortunately are so disabled that they require fulltime one-on-one aides (also paid for out of the school budget) are the ones that sadly will not become "productive" members of society. They are a drain on already limited resources. .

 

[daughtersrus]

I will begin by saying again that I believe special ed children deserve an appropriate education.

But can you just imagine..... if each average, above average, gifted and profoundly gifted child had a full time one on one aide....... what THOSE children could accomplish??

Most children with an IEP do not have a one on one aide.

 

[mamacatnv]

daughtersrus:
I'm curious - do you teach?
Do you have knowledge of school districts other than your perfect example of a district?

I'm not trying to be harsh or sarcastic. I feel like your comments are not from experience, but are coming from someone who has read a lot of what the system is supposed to do not what it actually does.

 

[castleview]

OP, you've gotten some very good responses. Here's my take as a former teacher and a parent on what kills schools.

1. Let the teachers teach! Schools are doing way too many things
that they should not be (primarily daycare, food, counseling). Their
primary job should be to educate.
2. Parents who don't want to parent. Hence the above problem. The
amount of parents that don't prioritize education is astounding. As is the
amount who want everything both ways. Ex: Challenge my child but
don't give him too much work. Mainstream my child but give her
individual attention with modifications. Zero tolerance unless it's my
kid.
3. Decisions/mandates being made by people who haven't been in a
classroom in years, if at all.
4. Professional development from consultants or college professors who
have "new innovative ways" of teaching things we already know
how to teach.
5. Administrators not willing to do the work required to fire a
poor teacher. This stinks for both the kids and other teachers if one is
not carrying her workload.
6. Accept reality and admit that not all kids are going to reach the same
level.
7. Accept that inclusion doesn't work in all cases. A kid whose
learning to button his shirt should not be in a Biology class. A kid who is
constantly disruptive, should not be allowed to keep hindering the
education of 20 other students.
8. Exploitation/abuse of special ed services. It only takes away
from kids who genuinely have special needs and gives a lot of kids an
excuse to simply carry on their spoiled ways. Before I get jumped on,
please realize I am not grouping all special needs kids, but there are
plenty of kids who have nothing wrong with them, that manage to score
a diagnosis.
9. Disillusionment of good teachers. Time and again good teachers
get the worst kids, the most IEPs, and the crappiest subjects because
they can handle it. In the meantime the worst teachers get the good
kids and the more desirable classes because they suck and whine.
10. Parents and citizens need to realize that a public school is by the public.
They have to demand the best education for their kids, they have to go
to board meetings and make sure their kids are not getting screwed.
They also have to support the schools.
11. Money. Central office could manage money MUCH better. But I
don't think complaining about how inner city and rural schools get less
than affluent suburbs holds any water. If anything it just causes
jealousy. Simply put, in a wealthy area you will have a greater
percentage of parents who support education. They are willing to pay
for excellent public schools. I don't expect them to pay for my public
schools just because a portion of my townspeople aren't willing to. I'll
work to change those people's minds.

Sorry about the novel. I swear I didn't intend on doing that.

 

[CJMickeyMouse]

Does an average, above average, or gifted child need an aide to function? Really? I wouldn't trade my children for any other children in the world but I would "undo" those unique challenges my younger daughter faces if I could. She doesn't have an aide because she is "special". She has one to facilitate her education. I can't wait for the day she doesn't need individualized help. It will happen. Until then I refuse to feel guilty about it nor will I accept that average or academically gifted children are being left in the dust because of it. I also have an "average" child who is receiving a very high-quality education in the same district. We aren't an exceptionally wealthy community but we value education and vote to support it when necessary.

Is the goal for children to function.... or achieve their full potential? If a gifted child had a full time person to enhance their education do you think they would advance further and accomplish more? I believe they would.

A special ed child deserves the attention necessary to learn and achieve all they are capable of. But so does every other child in the district, IMO.

 

[freckles and boo]

Is the goal for children to function.... or achieve their full potential? If a gifted child had a full time person to enhance their education do you think they would advance further and accomplish more? I believe they would.

A special ed child deserves the attention necessary to learn and achieve all they are capable of. But so does every other child in the district, IMO.

The goal is for each child to reach his or her full potential. To do so they must be able to function in a classroom. Most children can do so just fine without individual help. If a gifted child needs someone to make sure she doesn't wander out the building or fall off her chair because of low muscle tone then she should have that help. Most children, including gifted children, don't usually need that kind of assistance. Aides are not teachers or tutors. You seem to be suggesting that a gifted child should have a private tutor to challenge her when she is bored or understimulated. That is not what my child's aide does. She is there to redirect her attention, to replace the pencil when it falls out of her hand, etc.

I am a former "gifted" child. As an adult the most intellectually "gifted" people I know with advanced degrees (myself included) aren't doing significantly better than the college educated "average" people with great work ethics.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

"She drew the line when a parent wanted her to change an 8 year old's diaper. This was in public school not a special school and these kids were included in the regular classroom."

So you're saying that because a child needs to wear a diaper, they shouldn't be included in the regular ed class?

I think the proper assessment is "if the child cannot change his own diaper then he should not be in public schooling."

Sorry, but public school is for the common man. Special ed children are not the common man. Neither are gifted children, but at least they aren't a burden on the teacher, and through him or her a burden upon the other students.

 

[daughtersrus]

daughtersrus:
I'm curious - do you teach?
Do you have knowledge of school districts other than your perfect example of a district?

I'm not trying to be harsh or sarcastic. I feel like your comments are not from experience, but are coming from someone who has read a lot of what the system is supposed to do not what it actually does.

I am not a teacher but the mom of a special ed student and the mom of two DDs that are special education majors (both of whom were in gift programs within our district~our district does classify these programs as special ed as well). My district is not by any means perfect (maybe you have me confused with someone else). As a matter of fact, my youngest DD currently attends a private school (at the district's expense). I am not a fan of inclusion for everyone and have actually fought to have my DD in a self-contained class. Hence my opinion that I think that many administrators spend a lot of time fighting with parents instead following the law and trying to do what is best for the child.

Are you a special ed teacher?

 

[mickeyboat]

The goal is for each child to reach his or her full potential.

My DD is an average 3rd grader, but could use some help in reading to reach her full potential. She could have used that help in first grade, but there were not enough spaces in the Title 1 Reading Recovery Program to accomodate her.

In a world of limited resources, who should lose?

Denae

 

[CJMickeyMouse]

Aides are not teachers or tutors. You seem to be suggesting that a gifted child should have a private tutor to challenge her when she is bored or understimulated. That is not what my child's aide does. She is there to redirect her attention, to replace the pencil when it falls out of her hand, etc.

.

The aides in our system do much, MUCH more than what you describe. I am sure it varies from school to school. The problem in our system (which thankfully I am 2 years away from having no children involved in) is that the special ed children are put above all others - average to gifted. Parents get IEP's for their children so they don't have to have homework, write in cursive... it just goes on and on.

As long as we continue to reduce the requirements and adapt the classroom so everyone can reach the "level of proficiency" then IMO we are selling the average to gifted students short. Now I realize this is no easy task, but there needs to be some way to help every student move forward at a reasonable pace. Otherwise, tomorrow's leaders are going to be leaders in spite of the educational system rather than becoming leaders as a result.

 

[daughtersrus]

I think the proper assessment is "if the child cannot change his own diaper then he should not be in public schooling." .

So we should pull out all of those 3 and 4 yo that are in Early Childhood as well as the 16 that lost control of her bowels when her spine was injured in a car accident because although her mind is full functioning, she can not use the bathroom like her peers and send them to private schools and pass those costs on to the taxpayers?

Sorry, but public school is for the common man. Special ed children are not the common man. .

Can you post a link to this part of the education laws?

Neither are gifted children, but at least they aren't a burden on the teacher, and through him or her a burden upon the other students.

Burden? If a teacher sees his/her students as a burden, maybe it's time for them to find another career.

If you think that only disabled children can be disruptive, you need to take your rose colored glasses off. There were children in my DD's gifted class that were far more distuptive than any of the children in my disabled DD's class.

 

[freckles and boo]

The aides in our system do much, MUCH more than what you describe. I am sure it varies from school to school. The problem in our system (which thankfully I am 2 years away from having no children involved in) is that the special ed children are put above all others - average to gifted. Parents get IEP's for their children so they don't have to have homework, write in cursive... it just goes on and on.

As long as we continue to reduce the requirements and adapt the classroom so everyone can reach the "level of proficiency" then IMO we are selling the average to gifted students short. Now I realize this is no easy task, but there needs to be some way to help every student move forward at a reasonable pace. Otherwise, tomorrow's leaders are going to be leaders in spite of the educational system rather than becoming leaders as a result.

A parent can't just "get" an IEP. That isn't how it works.

I swear some of you folks need to go to a board meeting if you really think your average kids are being sold short. I also think your last statement is preposterous. There are more students in AP and IB courses now than ever before. High schools are more rigorous now than they were when I was a student. More students are going to college now than ever before and getting into good schools is more competitive than ever before. Yes, some schools and some districts struggle but to universally suggest that the education system is going to churn out more mediocre students because of special education is ludicrous.

 

[daughtersrus]

Parents get IEP's for their children so they don't have to have homework, write in cursive... it just goes on and on .

I don't' know anyone that has gotten an IEP for their child just so that they can get out of doing homework or writing in cursive.

As long as we continue to reduce the requirements and adapt the classroom so everyone can reach the "level of proficiency" then IMO we are selling the average to gifted students short. Now I realize this is no easy task, but there needs to be some way to help every student move forward at a reasonable pace. Otherwise, tomorrow's leaders are going to be leaders in spite of the educational system rather than becoming leaders as a result.

This is part of the problem with NCLB. If you look at my DD's portfolio assessment results, you would think that she is at grade level when in reality, she is not. The school is not penalized because her goals have been brought down to a point where she will easily meet them so that the school doesn't get placed on a watch list. Instead of teaching the students, the teacher is busy filling out neat little graphs and assembling a nice binder to send off to the state instead of instructing the students.

I have to wonder if your son had not fully recovered from Guillain Barre Syndrome if your opinion may be different. Would you be fighting for him to get an education even if he wasn't able to write in cursive?

 

[freckles and boo]

My DD is an average 3rd grader, but could use some help in reading to reach her full potential. She could have used that help in first grade, but there were not enough spaces in the Title 1 Reading Recovery Program to accomodate her.

In a world of limited resources, who should lose?

Denae

Nobody. But that is why in a world of limited resources our children need us to advocate. I am a persistent, but respectful, squeaky wheel.

 

[mickeyboat]

Nobody. But that is why in a world of limited resources our children need us to advocate. I am a persistent, but respectful, squeaky wheel.

But when I advocate for my child I am seen as a terrible person because my child does not have documented physical or mental disabilities. And no matter how much I advocate there are NO programs to help my daughter, unless I go outside the school district and pay for it myself.