Problem in education

[perla75]

Parents, parents, parents.

Look at how many threads are on the DIS - all complaining about teachers, schools, policies. They act like schools should exist only for them.

Then at the opposite end of the spectrum are the parents who do not care at all.


Secondly - Special Ed is killing the schools. That is the reason most kids I know go to private schools - no special ed kids - they use an incredible amount of resources.

Eww!! You are either a troll or someone who might benefit from kindergarten level special education services.

....although you know what? Your not worth my money-I think I'd rather give it to Goofyluver's kid-even though he's no longer progressing, my guess is his level of class and dignity are much more advanced than this guy!

 

[MarkFL]

So are you implying that in two-parent households there is never a time when both parents are not home? That one of the parents is always home while the other is working?

 

[disneyjunkie]

Pssssst...congratulations to you and that kid o' yours.

thanks

 

[mamacatnv]

Parents, parents, parents.

Look at how many threads are on the DIS - all complaining about teachers, schools, policies. They act like schools should exist only for them.

Then at the opposite end of the spectrum are the parents who do not care at all.


Secondly - Special Ed is killing the schools. That is the reason most kids I know go to private schools - no special ed kids - they use an incredible amount of resources.

Not the most politically correct way to put it but I understand your point

How so?
From Time 2007 - American schools spend more than $8 billion a year educating the mentally retarded. Spending on the gifted isn't even tabulated in some states, but by the most generous calculation, we spend no more than $800 million on gifted programs.

Go to the disabilities board - see what some of the parents speak of - children who will never learn to read or write or do simple math. Yet they go to school with all sorts of taxpayer funded aides. What exactly are they being educated in?

The number of aides, the special accommodations, the distractions to other students - all of those have a large cost.

Public schools are failing the average and above average child.

My DS came across those exact statistics while writing his Sr. research paper on our educations system today and how we are failing all kids.

I don't have to go to the disability board.

I get to look in the next room.

All children have a right to an education. Regardless of cognitive/physical/emotional disabilities.

Thanks for your input though.

I agree to a point, but where do we draw the line? Where do we start thinking about helping the best and the brightest to succeed to the best of their abilities? I think parents of bright kids are as frustrated as parents of special needs kids. With so much funding going towards special ed and so little going towards advanced classes and enrichment programs, I think they have a valid point, and the statistics back up what the parents are saying at least as far as dollars being spent.

I think every child deserves an education. I don't believe a child in special ed is in any way hurting the education of a child in regular classes. If a child is failing, it all falls on the parents. You can spend all the money in the world on schools, but if a parent doesn't step up to the plate and become involved, then it won't do any good.

Most private schools do so well because the parents are involved. If a person is willing to pay for an education, then that person has a vested interest in it.

I also don't think the problem is single parents. I do think that single parents have to work twice as hard, but it can be done. When I was a single parent my daughter was on the honor roll. I read to her, I looked over her homework, I went to her school functions. I was involved.

I do think that inclusion is harming all students. I know, I'm gonna get slammed that someones special needs child will teach my child tolerance ( I get it, I understand). However, I send my child to school to learn to read, write etc. Tolerance comes from everywhere not just school.

As for the single parent - heck, my hats off to you. I know some single parents that put in more volunteer hours than many 2 parent families I know. Sometimes being a single parent is not a choice and I do not feel it is fair to put the sad state of our education on their already overburdened shoulders.

 

[Goofyluver]

Hi Jen --

My comments were not that all children of single parents will underperform. It's not narrow-minded. There are many variables that children of single parents have to overcome in order to succed (again - not all). Income, Time with parent. School involvement. Level of education. And maybe most important - Supervision and guidance of the child. If a parent has to work 12-8, who is with the child in the afternoon and evening? If the parent has to work from 3-11, can they sit and do homework with their child?

There are plenty of children from one-parent families that succeed, but there are many more who do not when compared to two-parent families.

Being PC, saying that it doesn't matter won't help and there isn't a solution. Children out of wedlock is rising like the needle on Oprah's scale. Divorce is too. But, unlike Oprah, the needle won't go back down.

If you are the single parent of child that's doing great -- fantastic!

I agree with you, in one respect. That there are often confounding variables which can affect the children. That was my point in my original response to you.

Your post above is very different than your original post.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

I'll tell ya' a little bit more about me. I'm an SLP that has worked in special education for years. Kiddos like this, are my life both at work and at home.

And I'll answer your questions.

Can he do math? A bit. But he is years behind grade level. And he has peaked in his learning. He will probably NOT progress beyond where he is now.

Can he memorize history facts? Sometimes. We never know what does and does not stick. There's no rhyme or reason to disabilities honey.

Can he write papers? No.

Can he read short stories? Yes. Years behind grade level.

He's in 7th grade and is functioning on a 2nd grade level. And he has essentially stopped progressing.

Now whatcha think?

Are you going to break it to him or not?

OK - if he has stopped progressing - what is the point of school? And how could any school continue to promote him to 7th grade when he is so behind?

At this point taxpayers are paying for babysitting - by your own admission there is no further progression to be had.

So yeah - I would kick him out of school.

 

[okeydokey]

The only thing I know about you is that you are a single parent raising a child with disabilities. I have no idea whether or not your son is capable of learning.

However, can he learn the appropriate things to move to the next grade? Can he do math, memorize history facts, write papers, read short stories (depending on grade of course). If not, I stand by my statement that he does NOT belong in school.

As regards to rehab - if someone needs life skills or to be taught how to live with their disability - thats what rehab is for. That is not for a public school to teach.

My kids' school's mission statement states that all children have the right to be helped to reach their potential. Because a special ed student doesn't have the same potential as others doesn't mean they don't have a right to a public school education. My son is in the gifted program and I know he doesn't get the same level of services as some of the special ed kids and I thank God every day that he doesn't need those services. I give a huge amount of credit to the dedicated parents, teachers and aides that devote themselves to ALL the students enrolled in our school. They all deserve our support and praise. They are not wasting dollars or time.

 

[lyeag]

I am a middle school teacher. There are many problems in education.

1. Parents that make excuses for children
2. NCLB
3. A lack of responsibility on all fronts- teachers, parents and students
4. Reactive instead of proactive parents
5. Administrators who are afraid to discipline because of out of control parents
6. Too much emphasis and money on sports, cheerleading, and athletic facilities
7. Children raising themselves

 

[Goofyluver]

I agree to a point, but where do we draw the line? Where do we start thinking about helping the best and the brightest to succeed to the best of their abilities? I think parents of bright kids are as frustrated as parents of special needs kids. With so much funding going towards special ed and so little going towards advanced classes and enrichment programs, I think they have a valid point, and the statistics back up what the parents are saying at least as far as dollars being spent. I do think that inclusion is harming all students. I know, I'm gonna get slammed that someones special needs child will teach my child tolerance ( I get it, I understand). However, I send my child to school to learn to read, write etc. Tolerance comes from everywhere not just school.

Gifted and talented students are covered under the special ed umbrella in my state. They are afforded the same opportunities as any special needs child.

And inclusion does not work for every child. The concept can be a good one, as long as it's implemented accordingly. Which...very rarely...is the case.

 

[portocall]

Parent involvement is not the same thing as parental support. An involved parent who doesn't support the school's policies (uniform, homework, discipline, ect....) can be just as detrimental as a parent who is not involved. They spend a lot of time "gossiping" with each other, then the kids hear it and think that the school is not a good place to be... I see this all the time.

I worked in a very low performing school that didn't even supply toliet paper. If a child had to go, they had to tell the teacher their business and that determined the amount of TP they recieved, in front of the class. (teacher supplied) If a boy asked, everyone knew what he was doing... that is just wrong, and not the kind of message that we should be sending to children. How is that supposed to foster learning.

 

[Goofyluver]

OK - if he has stopped progressing - what is the point of school? And how could any school continue to promote him to 7th grade when he is so behind?

At this point taxpayers are paying for babysitting - by your own admission there is no further progression to be had.

So yeah - I would kick him out of school.

Although his progression has slowed dramatically, he still learns. Progression through "grade levels" does not mean that he is not able to retain some information and learn new skills.

These children also NEED to be around typical peers. It gives them an education they cannot get elsewhere...and one you would not understand, obviously.

Guess I'll break the good news!

NO MORE SCHOOL!

 

[perla75]

The fact of the matter is-these laws are put in place for a reason-the potential safety of each & every one of your kids and your family's kids. & the notion that we live in a country that promotes equal right.

Every single one of you &/or your loved ones have the potential of giving birth to and raising a child with special needs. I'm willing to bet every single one of you would be grateful for these laws that are protecting your children or loved ones' children. & believe me-that money that goes toward special education-it's not just handed to anyone. Those parents have to continuously fight to the bone to receive the services that these laws are supposed to provide.

 

[portocall]

Gifted and talented students are covered under the special ed umbrella in my state. They are afforded the same opportunities as any special needs child.

And inclusion does not work for every child. The concept can be a good one, as long as it's implemented accordingly. Which...very rarely...is the case.

That is true here, and you would be surprised at the reactions that the parents give when their "gifted" child is referred to special education... duh, special education is for any child who needs more than the average child... be it extra services or an accelerated pace.

 

[portocall]

I am a middle school teacher. There are many problems in education.

1. Parents that make excuses for children
2. NCLB
3. A lack of responsibility on all fronts- teachers, parents and students
4. Reactive instead of proactive parents
5. Administrators who are afraid to discipline because of out of control parents
6. Too much emphasis and money on sports, cheerleading, and athletic facilities
7. Children raising themselves

I agree with almost everything. I am not sure what you mean by too much empasis on sports part, (not the money). I have seen schools out of control and if you work at one like that I would completly agree, however some empasis on extracurricular activities create a healthy school environment and can be extremely beneficial. Our middle schoolers who are involved in those type of activities have to turn in weekly grade reports and tend to mostly do better in their classes as well as really like school most of the time (maybe not all of their classes, but at least come prepared and more smiley than ones not involved)

 

[lyeag]

I agree with almost everything. I am not sure what you mean by too much empasis on sports part, (not the money). I have seen schools out of control and if you work at one like that I would completly agree, however some empasis on extracurricular activities create a healthy school environment and can be extremely beneficial. Our middle schoolers who are involved in those type of activities have to turn in weekly grade reports and tend to mostly do better in their classes as well as really like school most of the time (maybe not all of their classes, but at least come prepared and more smiley than ones not involved)

Don't get me wrong, I do believe sports, and all extracurricular activities, are important. However, I do hate to see sports being the end all and be all of school life. I think that sports, at least here, tend to become more important than learning to some parents, coaches and teachers. Sports can be a motivating factor for some students to keep on top of their work, but some kids are being giving breaks due to the fact that they are also athletes.

While sports can generate funds, those funds typically only benefit the athletic programs. I hate to see new sports facilities being built while there are places within the learning environment where those funds could be spent. (Which, by the way, would benefit a larger percentage of students.)

 

[portocall]

Don't get me wrong, I do believe sports, and all extracurricular activities, are important. However, I do hate to see sports being the end all and be all of school life. I think that sports, at least here, tend to become more important than learning to some parents, coaches and teachers. Sports can be a motivating factor for some students to keep on top of their work, but some kids are being giving breaks due to the fact that they are also athletes.

While sports can generate funds, those funds typically only benefit the athletic programs. I hate to seen new sports facilities being built while there are places within the learning environment where those funds could be spent. (Which, by the way, would benefit a larger percentage of students.)

You have a good point there... school first, then the fun. Our money doesn't stay with the athletics dept. per se. Granted ours don't generate much money either. We don't play the cream of the crop either, and we have had parents take their kids to different school for better sports programs so I do agree with you on that

 

[Ember]

I thought a good while on how to phrase what I wanted to say here... I do, in part, agree that special needs children are one of the big problems in education. But NOT because they shouldn't be there. I think that the ideal of inclusion is great. Where I think the problem comes in is the in the lack of support.

A regular classroom teacher is being asked to take on multiple needs without specialized training or proper support while maintaining a high level of learning and motivation. I am fairly lucky in my classroom right now. But my some of my co-workers aren't. I know one poor teacher who has 13 children with needs in her class of 22, and one part time aide. She deals with several who are ADHD/ADD, one with fragile x, one with downs, and one who is mild/moderate on the autism spectrum. There is NO WAY you can tell me that the 11 children without needs are getting the attention they deserve in that classroom. She spends so much time managing the needs, she simply can't devote time to meaningful learning. This is not her fault, nor do I think it's the students fault. I believe the system is breaking and must be changed.

If you are going to include children with needs in the regular classroom, you MUST provide the support. Otherwise inclusion simply does not work and is not fair to the students or the teacher. I know money isn't going to grow on trees to fix the problem and that's it's very complex. But it is one of the things I think is definitely broken with the system the way it is now.

 

[TheZue]

However, can he learn the appropriate things to move to the next grade? Can he do math, memorize history facts, write papers, read short stories (depending on grade of course). If not, I stand by my statement that he does NOT belong in school.

.

Well my special needs guy absolutely can. You have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Can you child recall events and navigate places that he hasn't been since he was a baby? Mine can. Could he count to 20 before the age of two without it ever being taught? Mine could. Did yours learn to read at 2.5 without instruction while refusing to sit for a story? Mine did. Does he pick up fairly complex facts from thin air with all the adults in his life being baffled where he learned it? Mine does. Can your child memorize a full length movie word for word after seeing it twice? Mine can.And yes he can do math and is handling the vast majority of the curiculum outside of printing just fine. He is frightenly smart.

The problem is he has autism so he has a very hard time expressing himself. He has to deal with a sensory system that has gone absolutely haywire. He can't follow a social coversation. And he can't always respond when people ask him something because his nervous system just isn't cooperating and he's working so hard just to sit still and not humm. He has no sense of danger so he's quite likely to just leave the school grounds if he doesn't have an aide there. His hands are shockingly weak so he can't grip a pencil after being in school for two years and having outside therapy. With the help of an aid we fully expect that he will be able to navigate elementary school while his language is catching up and graduate with a full diploma. He's certainly capable of it in terms of IQ; but being special needs isn't exclusively about intelligence.

So don't assume that all of the special needs population is just being babysat. School is doing exactly the same thing it is for your kids, preparing them for adulthood. Under your rational we should just give them all an IQ test and everyone below 130 should just go to the manual labour school and the rest can be groomed for university. Special needs kids are very capable of rising beyond expectations (and honestly some of the expectations aren't that different long term they just need some help getting there) and 'normal' kids are quite capable of falling far short.

 

[DisneyKT]

I thought a good while on how to phrase what I wanted to say here... I do, in part, agree that special needs children are one of the big problems in education. But NOT because they shouldn't be there. I think that the ideal of inclusion is great. Where I think the problem comes in is the in the lack of support.

A regular classroom teacher is being asked to take on multiple needs without specialized training or proper support while maintaining a high level of learning and motivation. I am fairly lucky in my classroom right now. But my some of my co-workers aren't. I know one poor teacher who has 13 children with needs in her class of 22, and one part time aide. She deals with several who are ADHD/ADD, one with fragile x, one with downs, and one who is mild/moderate on the autism spectrum. There is NO WAY you can tell me that the 11 children without needs are getting the attention they deserve in that classroom. She spends so much time managing the needs, she simply can't devote time to meaningful learning. This is not her fault, nor do I think it's the students fault. I believe the system is breaking and must be changed.

If you are going to include children with needs in the regular classroom, you MUST provide the support. Otherwise inclusion simply does not work and is not fair to the students or the teacher. I know money isn't going to grow on trees to fix the problem and that's it's very complex. But it is one of the things I think is definitely broken with the system the way it is now.

I totally agree with you. My DD has a few children in her class that really shouldn't be there without extra help from other teachers. They have a issue everyday with one boy. I feel bad for him but he takes away from the rest of the students. Plus it's not fair to the teacher.

 

[TwinsinCA]

I think one of the biggest problems is class size compounded with kids of widely varying abilities all in the same class. The only way to fix that is to build more schools and hire more teachers and that costs money.

In any given class you have the bright kids, the regular kids, underperforming kids due to chance, uninterested parents, some disability, or language barrier. And on top of THAT you have those with behavior problems. I wish they would assign kids to a class with like ability peers so they can all get the help they need at their level. And get the behavior problems OUT of the regular classroom and into their own small class where they can be kept under control without the whole class suffering. I realize not all schools have the population to make so many classes. But my daughters' school has 7 or 8 third grade classrooms. Yet I know for a fact when they assign classes they purposely spread out the smart ones, the disruptive ones, etc. and try to balance gender as well. So you end up with ALL classes having a few kids that make the year difficult for everyone.