Probate and Estate's responsibility for the making the house sellable?

[barkley]

It brings a whole new level to the planning for sure. I’m just thankful we’ve gotten to point siblings aren’t minors now. Round two of planning.

it was an interesting experience with the estate planning to say the least. we went with a law group that is the tops in our area for guardianships and other legalities pertaining to disability, elder law and estate planning BUT since we wanted from day one to have a professional execution of the estate and had already throuroghly researched and chosen a financial institution we wanted some input from their perspective as well (they will end up also administering an overall family trust as well as a separte ABLE account for younger ds). it was interesting to hear the minor points the bank rep brought up on how they believed wording of the documents should be changed a bit based on their prior experiences with judicial let alone social security's interpretation which they believed disadvantaged their disabled clients. attorneys offered some feedback and with a few tweaks everyone seemed satisfied and both attorneys and bank staff acknowledged learning from one another.

i just glad to have it done. i know we need to periodically tweak it as time passes and needs occur/change but the overlying document is done and in place.

 

[HopperFan]

it was an interesting experience with the estate planning to say the least. we went with a law group that is the tops in our area for guardianships and other legalities pertaining to disability, elder law and estate planning BUT since we wanted from day one to have a professional execution of the estate and had already throuroghly researched and chosen a financial institution we wanted some input from their perspective as well (they will end up also administering an overall family trust as well as a separte ABLE account for younger ds). it was interesting to hear the minor points the bank rep brought up on how they believed wording of the documents should be changed a bit based on their prior experiences with judicial let alone social security's interpretation which they believed disadvantaged their disabled clients. attorneys offered some feedback and with a few tweaks everyone seemed satisfied and both attorneys and bank staff acknowledged learning from one another.

i just glad to have it done. i know we need to periodically tweak it as time passes and needs occur/change but the overlying document is done and in place.

Our original trust was written 20 years ago. About 5 years ago when rewriting will we had new lawyer look over the trust for DS and changed a few places of wording. It was interesting that thought processes had changed in some aspects. In my mind we will probably have it reviewed in maybe 5 years to make sure we are on top of the changing laws regarding these type of trusts.

Having NOT straight forward estates can be overwhelming for sure.

 

[starry_solo]

You could pay for ALOT of caregivers with the $400,000 (at minimum) that the sister saved by living rent free for 35 years. It has been my experience that caregivers and end of life care are very expensive, but they aren’t needed for that long. I still think the sister who has lived rent free for so long has had a pretty sweet deal.

Maybe 2-3 years worth of 2 "full-time" caregivers. I know because I had a friend (in CA, but it looks like IL is also around $30-35/hr for Visiting Angels) spent well over $125,000 per year to have 2 full-time caregivers (so 16 hours of the 24 hours in the day) come 5 days a week for 16-hours and one weekend day for 8 hours to care for his mother. 24 hours/day care would have been about $200,000/year.

And it's not just end-of-life care, it was after a stroke, heart-attack, and during COVID.

 

[tvguy]

Our original trust was written 20 years ago. About 5 years ago when rewriting will we had new lawyer look over the trust for DS and changed a few places of wording. It was interesting that thought processes had changed in some aspects. In my mind we will probably have it reviewed in maybe 5 years to make sure we are on top of the changing laws regarding these type of trusts.

Having NOT straight forward estates can be overwhelming for sure.

Good point about reviewing trusts. When I sold my parents house, the trust was 38 years old, and in a format the Escrow Officer was not familiar with. He panicked because the first day he saw it was on the day we were closing escrow, and he was afraid it wasn't legal. It was just 3 paragraphs, he expected dozens of pages. He faxed it to their legal staff. One of the lawyers there recognized it. The County used to have stacks of these forms at the Recorders office. You could write your own Trust, without a lawyer, and they would record it. The Escrow lawyer said it met all the legal requirements and was valid. The only reason the County stopped using them was lawyers complaint that the County was giving away for free something they charged $1,500 for.
But it would have been helpful to have had it reviewed every few years. Probably should review mine too as it is 15 years old.

 

[darnheather]

Thanks.

That's what I think too. I will have her check the will and see what it says.

If the sister attempts to distribute the proceeds unequally, will the sister's lawyer put the breaks on it? Illinois probate law is nearly impossible to deal with on your own. My mom died in Illinois and I tried to do a do it yourself probate and I was nearly laughed out of court. A lawyer is, for all intents and purposes, a requirement in Illinois so I am 99% certain the sister has one.

If there was no will the court will step in and force an equal distribution. Everyone will end up getting a lawyer and they will lose more money. Death/property brings out the absolute worst in people. I honestly think I've seen more bad behavior over this topic than divorce in my two short summers of working.

Again, please make a will. Even if you don't think you have much it will save so much heartbreak.

 

[barkley]

Good point about reviewing trusts. When I sold my parents house, the trust was 38 years old, and in a format the Escrow Officer was not familiar with. He panicked because the first day he saw it was on the day we were closing escrow, and he was afraid it wasn't legal. It was just 3 paragraphs, he expected dozens of pages. He faxed it to their legal staff. One of the lawyers there recognized it. The County used to have stacks of these forms at the Recorders office. You could write your own Trust, without a lawyer, and they would record it. The Escrow lawyer said it met all the legal requirements and was valid. The only reason the County stopped using them was lawyers complaint that the County was giving away for free something they charged $1,500 for.
But it would have been helpful to have had it reviewed every few years. Probably should review mine too as it is 15 years old.

probably the same forms that were filled out by my mom and all her widowed friends who attended the traveling wills and trusts presentations that were offered at every community and senior center in northern california in the 70's and 80's.

the thing with a trust though-it only effectivly works if you ACTUALLY put/keep things IN THE TRUST. my mom was a chaser of cd rates and got lazy about putting new accounts into the name of her trust. when she passed i ended up dealing with a mix of-accounts with p.o.d's, accounts in her sole name (which the will accompanying the trust did direct to default to the trust but that took time, legwork, faxing of documents to out of state banks) and very little in the actual trust.

 

[mousefan73]

I don't know the laws of Illinois. But I would expect that the Executor of the Estate can ask the sister that has lived there 35 years rent free to clean up. If they don't that cost would be paid out of the total estate, not just their share. However, as far as I can tell an Executor can do just about anything they want to get the estate settled in a reasonable time frame. A year is more than enough time. Too long in fact. My MIL's estate was not set up properly so it had to be Probated. But my wife could sell the house and car in that time, the money just had to be held in a Probate account until probate closed.
My mom's estate WAS properly set up, so everything she owned became mine the second she passed away. I didn't have any constraints.
My wife's step-mother passed away a year ago, and as far as I know nothing as been done to settle the estate. Her step-sister is the executor and has been overwhelmed by it all. But as far as I know, there is no law saying an estate has to be settled within any time frame.

Just now found this thread and havent read any other posts.. The bolded got to me.. Yes maybe she lived their "rent free" but as caretaker for both her parents, she paid a high price.

This thread just proves money is more important over family and I guess we all keep score.. If I had a sibling living 35 years in our family home, was retired, on limited income and not well. I simply would not kick them out. Maybe have them pay me a "rent" monthly they can afford to buy me out of my inheritance share

 

[SC Minnie]

Thanks.

That's what I think too. I will have her check the will and see what it says.

If the sister attempts to distribute the proceeds unequally, will the sister's lawyer put the breaks on it? Illinois probate law is nearly impossible to deal with on your own. My mom died in Illinois and I tried to do a do it yourself probate and I was nearly laughed out of court. A lawyer is, for all intents and purposes, a requirement in Illinois so I am 99% certain the sister has one.

I'm in SC so things may be a little different. When I had to settle my Dad's estate last year before they would close probate I had to send a distribution letter to everyone named in the will and list what they were given. They had to sign (notarized) and send back to the court. Probate could not be closed without this document. I would assume if the will stated the proceeds were to be divided equally and they weren't this document wouldn't be signed/approved.

In SC probate documents are available online as they are filed. You can see what process everything is in and what papers have been filed including the will.

 

[tvguy]

probably the same forms that were filled out by my mom and all her widowed friends who attended the traveling wills and trusts presentations that were offered at every community and senior center in northern california in the 70's and 80's.

the thing with a trust though-it only effectivly works if you ACTUALLY put/keep things IN THE TRUST. my mom was a chaser of cd rates and got lazy about putting new accounts into the name of her trust. when she passed i ended up dealing with a mix of-accounts with p.o.d's, accounts in her sole name (which the will accompanying the trust did direct to default to the trust but that took time, legwork, faxing of documents to out of state banks) and very little in the actual trust.

My mom only had the house in a trust. Everything else I was join owner of. But I was her only child and she trusted me. It was a Godsend the last 13 months of her life when she could no longer manager her finances. I was on everything and just paid the bills like she would have from her accounts.
We have our house and bank accounts in our trust. We have very little money in bank accounts, most of our money is in IRAs which like 401ks have their own rules and can't be put in a trust.
Cars are not in the trust either, per our trust attorney's recommendation.

 

[Pink Partridge]

Her mom died in May 2022 and one of the sisters is the executor for the estate.

This is touchy for a lot of people that have watched family members live for free.

Even if the brother and sister were paying the mom and dad rent, they didn't pay anyone for the last year they were both deceased. I am sure the executor was fuming watching two siblings live for free, amongst the hoard. Seemingly not doing anything over the last year to clean up the place.

Of course, this may not be the truth. But when you see how some adult siblings take advantage of their parents, it's easy to think the negative.

 

[mom2rtk]

This is touchy for a lot of people that have watched family members live for free.

Even if the brother and sister were paying the mom and dad rent, they didn't pay anyone for the last year they were both deceased. I am sure the executor was fuming watching two siblings live for free, amongst the hoard. Seemingly not doing anything over the last year to clean up the place.

Of course, this may not be the truth. But when you see how some adult siblings take advantage of their parents, it's easy to think the negative.

It's also touchy for those who have done the work of caring for aging parents while siblings checked out, making excuses for why they weren't there.

 

[robinb]

So, I sent this to Kim:

I'm thinking about your sister's threat that you and your bother are responsible for the cleaning of the house. I don't think that is legal. Do you have a copy of the will? If not, you should ask your sister for it. If there is NO will, then there is a prescribed way the estate must be broken up. That happened to me and my sister and I received an equal share. If there is no will, you and your siblings will all receive an equal share. In any case, unless it is in the will that you and your brother are expressly responsible for cleaning *or* you somehow signed something that said you would take responsibility, YOU are not responsible. Your sister can ASK you to clean your mom's things but she cannot FORCE you to do it nor can she CHARGE just the two of you for the costs of cleaning. It is HER fiduciary responsibility as the executor to prepare the house for sale and sell it for the best price she can. Anything that needs to be done to facilitate that is the responsibility of the ESTATE. NOT YOU. Let me assure you, that her probate lawyer will not allow her to charge you without it being spelled out in the will and neither will the court. Hers is an empty threat.

I know that you are focusing on your stuff. I think that is the way to go. Focus on your stuff and your mother's stuff you want to keep. Leave the rest for your sister to deal with. She can hire a company to clean the place and have an estate sale or a company like I hired to simply clear out the house since my mom's stuff was not valuable.

As an aside, I just peeked at the Cook County's probate search and I do not see a probate started for your mom. Did she have a trust? Even so, I think that your sister would have had to file the will with the county by now and that would show as a record in the system.

I think it's interesting that the sister has not filed the will yet and it's been more than a year. By law, she had 30 days to file the will with the probate court. It makes me think that all the threats and bluster are she's just talking out of her butt. It also makes me think that she does not understand the process and thinks she can just do what she wants and isn't legally obliged to follow the rules. In Illinois, all estates with $100,000 worth of assets must be probated. I guess the house may be in a trust, but she would have had to file the will anyway and she be appointed the executor. I wrote out the message before I knew there was no will filed so the sister may *think* she's the executor but she's not legally the executor until that will is filed and the court appoints her.

https://probateadvance.com/avoiding-probate-illinois-inheritance-laws/

{Edited}

More info, the house is in a trust and the sister is the trustee. She is threatening to deduct the amount to clean the house from Kim and her brother's share of the proceeds of the house. I still don't think she can do that. I'm not sure if there is anything else in the trust. There is also no valid will.

 

[mousefan73]

It's also touchy for those who have done the work of caring for aging parents while siblings checked out, making excuses for why they weren't there.

I just don’t understand the mindset, maybe it’s jealousy? I mean, my husband is one of four siblings. His three sisters all married, relatively young, and moved out and formed their own families, buildt their own homes. My husband being the Forever bachelor at the time simply never moved out. Technically, he was living rent free for a good 20 years, but he took care of his parents, took care of the house did yardwork. There really wasn’t a mortgage to pay but I’m pretty sure, he paid for things here and there. At one point he decided to add on to his parents part of the house and did his own build. Turned it into a duplex. Technically, I guess one could see his parents gifted him land. At no point did any of his sisters ever bring up a discussion that their brother was “living for free“ at home or kept a scorecard on any type of financial advantage he had over
Them. That’s just the way his life worked out until he met me. By then his parents had been deceased And it was decided in the family that he just simply keeps the house since that was actually his home and he had built on his house. His sisters are happy for him. There was never any animosity on all those years. He lived there rent free. You have winners and losers but I wouldn’t call it that in the situation , that’s just the way life is and that’s not how they see it either

 

[mjkacmom]

It's also touchy for those who have done the work of caring for aging parents while siblings checked out, making excuses for why they weren't there.

Being a caretaker is HARD. My dad’s cousin was a live in caretaker for her mother for decades. Once her mother passed, she actually needed her daughter as a caretaker (not a lot of money, plus her daughter helped out with her grandmother too). Just such a sad situation, no one traveled, youngest is now in her 60’s and her mom is in very poor health, both still living in the same home they lived in with my dad’s aunt.

 

[robinb]

This is touchy for a lot of people that have watched family members live for free.

Even if the brother and sister were paying the mom and dad rent, they didn't pay anyone for the last year they were both deceased. I am sure the executor was fuming watching two siblings live for free, amongst the hoard. Seemingly not doing anything over the last year to clean up the place.

Of course, this may not be the truth. But when you see how some adult siblings take advantage of their parents, it's easy to think the negative.

Oh, I get that. I could go into my own family drama, but I won't. "Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys" became my mantra. I came to realize that my sister and her family were doing a service for my mom that was worth more than money and one that could never be paid back.

 

[Pink Partridge]

It's also touchy for those who have done the work of caring for aging parents while siblings checked out, making excuses for why they weren't there.

Oh, believe me. I have seen that too.

But we had a "mooch" in our family that has been "taking care" of his very able bodied elderly parents for decades now. Living for free. He is such a big boy, though. He cuts the grass at the home he lives in for free. Sometimes.

 

[Pink Partridge]

I just don’t understand the mindset, maybe it’s jealousy?

Probably. In some of the instances I have seen, the homes have been worth A LOT of money. Upwards of $800k. Homes that were bought many years ago for probably $150k. They just kept climbing in value.

Now, again, I am talking about instances where the parents can still shop on their own. Where the parents are still driving and cooking. But the adult child has been living free for 20 to 30 years. Sometimes never moved out in the first place. Claiming they are "taking care of mom and dad" (who are quite capable of taking care of themselves).

I don't have these issues (save a drug addict cousin), but I do know people with siblings that are taking advantage of their parents. Or so that is how they see it, at least.

 

[Pink Partridge]

More info, the house is in a trust and the sister is the trustee. She is threatening to deduct the amount to clean the house from Kim and her brother's share of the proceeds of the house. I still don't think she can do that.

I don't think she can do that either.

 

[tvguy]

More info, the house is in a trust and the sister is the trustee. She is threatening to deduct the amount to clean the house from Kim and her brother's share of the proceeds of the house. I still don't think she can do that. I'm not sure if there is anything else in the trust. There is also no valid will.

That could make a huge difference. If mom did not have the other sister and brother also as trustees, she clearly wanted the one sister as trustee to have control over that asset. In California, a trust supersedes a will.

 

[mousefan73]

Probably. In some of the instances I have seen, the homes have been worth A LOT of money. Upwards of $800k. Homes that were bought many years ago for probably $150k. They just kept climbing in value.

Now, again, I am talking about instances where the parents can still shop on their own. Where the parents are still driving and cooking. But the adult child has been living free for 20 to 30 years. Sometimes never moved out in the first place. Claiming they are "taking care of mom and dad" (who are quite capable of taking care of themselves).

I don't have these issues (save a drug addict cousin), but I do know people with siblings that are taking advantage of their parents. Or so that is how they see it, at least.

I think it’s just a cultural thing in the US Where living at home as an adult is being seen a “free loading” where in many cultures It’s just a multi generational home. I’m pretty sure if these parents were ok with their adult kids living with them, or they would’ve taken measures to get them out. In the US there’s some type of shame with adult kids still living with their parents. Either you are a loser or freeloader, maybe it just works?? if an adult is still able to be an adult while living still in their parents home, and nobody has an issue, why should they go out and have extra expenses if it’s not necessary? Most other cultures it’s normal for adult kids still live at home. Even at times with their on family and they’re not paying mortgages or anything. Parents are usually grateful to allow their kids to build their own nesteggs, but not throwing money out the window every month paying rent elsewhere.

Edit: text came out is “build own mistakes” I had to re-edit to build their own nestggs save money.