Probate and Estate's responsibility for the making the house sellable?

[cvjw]

I may be in the minority here, but if I was the sister trying to settle the estate, and had 2 siblings that had lived rent free in the house for years, I would want them to step up and clean out the house. Doesn’t seem like a lot to ask after years of free living expenses. Yes, they took care of the parents. But with the price of rent these days, seems like they made out pretty good. Not understanding how they are the victims. Seems like the siblings paying their own way are the ones that got the short end of the stick. Assuming living expenses are $1000 per month, after 35 years, the sister living rent free has saved over $400,000.

 

[mjkacmom]

Not a lawyer (even on the internet), but can comment on some of the other issues raised. Your friend and her siblings should have been having conversations about how to handle things long before the mom passed. If they waited until the mom was deceased to talk about these issues is a sure way to cause problems. Not clear to me why in the 35 yrs she has lived there some effort wasn't being made to get rid of unneeded things. Not like it was suddenly a surprise that one day they would probably be selling the house once both parents were gone. If there is nothing of value left in the house, then hiring someone to dispose of the things no one wants seems like the most straightforward way to handle that, but obviously would be a cost involved. My guess is there will likely be a lot of repairs needed to even prepare the house for sale, not clear what type of upkeep or improvements were made in the past 35 years. Someone will have to pay those costs.

As Kim's friend, you probably don't know what was discussed in the past, what sort of verbal agreements were made and perhaps are only getting Kim's side of the story. Did Kim contribute to any of the expenses of living there or did she pay rent? Did the other sister's have any role in being the mom's 'caregiver' and exactly what did that mean? Was Kim (and her brother) staying there rent-free in exchange for being a caregiver? Who actually owns the house? Obviously someone was paying the monthly bills (utilities, insurance, taxes, etc.). Were there any joint bank accounts being used for this purpose and how much is left in those accounts? Did the mom have any income/investments/savings being used to pay expenses? Exactly who paid for what and what agreements they had are certainly part of what needs to be considered. Since you likely don't know any of these things (or only hearing what Kim tells you), I really don't think you can provide much in the way of advice to her.

The issue of who pays to prepare the house for sale and how long Kim has to vacate the property seem like only a small piece of the total picture. From the descriptions provided I doubt any type of 'estate sale dealer' would have any interest in the contents of the home. Unlikely it contains valuable antiques, jewelry or other household items of significant value.

Estate sales are a lot of work for the company, the need to photograph, price, and set it up in the home, and anything they don’t think is worth selling must be removed. For my parents it took hours for them to set up (after we had another company come in and remove stuff in a large truck) and then workers were there on sale weekend. There was an initial assessment to see if the sale would be worth it. My parents had a gorgeous home filled with antiques, silver, China, crystal, artwork….

 

[mjkacmom]

I may be in the minority here, but if I was the sister trying to settle the estate, and had 2 siblings that had lived rent free in the house for years, I would want them to step up and clean out the house. Doesn’t seem like a lot to ask after years of free living expenses. Yes, they took care of the parents. But with the price of rent these days, seems like they made out pretty good. Not understanding how they are the victims. Seems like the siblings paying their own way are the ones that got the short end of the stick. Assuming living expenses are $1000 per month, after 35 years, the sister living rent free has saved over $400,000.

I think it depends on if a caregiver was needed. We paid my dads unlicensed caregiver $1000 a week, for 6 days. He could bath himself, dress himself, feed himself, she cooked, did laundry, grocery shopped. She was supposed to clean but was so bad at it that we got a cleaning lady. She didn’t drive so I took him to all of his appointments.

 

[HopperFan]

The issue of who pays to prepare the house for sale and how long Kim has to vacate the property seem like only a small piece of the total picture. From the descriptions provided I doubt any type of 'estate sale dealer' would have any interest in the contents of the home. Unlikely it contains valuable antiques, jewelry or other household items of significant value.

This reminded me of a story. Friend's mother had a large home, was a hoarder, had dementia for years living in home, fought assistance or the removal of any of her things. When she passed the friend was completely overwhelmed and could not do it herself mentally or physically. Mom's situation had beaten her down.

Whether you are living in the home assisting (as OP's friend) or living outside the home (as Executor) dealing with a house in that condition may simply be more than anyone can handle, especially if Mom was fighting any disruption to her "stuff".

I gave friend the name of a few reputable estate sale companies. One came in and looked around. What they told her was it was not worth their time to host a sale, the number of things with true value were small and the bulk was too much work to handle for a sale. They told her they would clean out the house free of charge and then they would recoup their money by selling what they could through their channels. Clearly they saw enough there to make a profit but they eliminated the tremendous cost of preparing and hosting a sale which they would not profit from.

Friend was relieved and all that work taken off of their shoulders. I am sure this is a common thing, I know several of the companies here have warehouses (where they do sales) or storefronts (where they stock from situations like this). Perhaps the "children" remove the sentimental things they want to keep then call in a company that handles house emptying this way.

 

[cvjw]

I think it depends on if a caregiver was needed. We paid my dads unlicensed caregiver $1000 a week, for 6 days. He could bath himself, dress himself, feed himself, she cooked, did laundry, grocery shopped. She was supposed to clean but was so bad at it that we got a cleaning lady. She didn’t drive so I took him to all of his appointments.

You could pay for ALOT of caregivers with the $400,000 (at minimum) that the sister saved by living rent free for 35 years. It has been my experience that caregivers and end of life care are very expensive, but they aren’t needed for that long. I still think the sister who has lived rent free for so long has had a pretty sweet deal.

 

[mom2rtk]

You could pay for ALOT of caregivers with the $400,000 (at minimum) that the sister saved by living rent free for 35 years. It has been my experience that caregivers and end of life care are very expensive, but they aren’t needed for that long. I still think the sister who has lived rent free for so long has had a pretty sweet deal.

We have no way of knowing that without knowing the particulars of the situation. Sounds like something the non-caregivers might say to let themselves off the hook.

 

[robinb]

Thank you everyone! You have given a lot of very good advice that I will be sure to pass onto Kim. I’m also sticking some of the estate sales advice in my back pocket for another friend who is in a nursing home. Getting old and having a debilitating stroke sucks! Being poor and disabled also sucks. Medicaid will soon force her to sell her house since it’s becoming apparent that she will not be able to physically return to it.

One thing I do want to address that seemed to come up a few times: the narrative that Kim is a freeloader and lived in her family home “rent free for 35 years”. I think one poster mentioned it as fact and other people repeated it. I never dreamed of asking her how much rent she paid so I am not 100% sure, but I believe that she was paying something for her room and board for the majority of the time she was there. She had a full time job and a car and a loving boyfriend and a full life. Except she lived in her family home. She had to quit her full time job a few years ago to care for her parents. She’s now on social security and has had a crafty side gig for a years and years that keeps her busy. Like many seniors, she will probably have to go back to work at least part time to supplement her income to afford housing.

I also want to echo what others have said about the cost of caregivers. I have another friend who brings people into her parents’ home to help care for her father who has dementia. She and her newly retired DH do the lion’s share, but he needs nearly 24/7 care. They pay well over $1000 per week for the same work that Kim was doing. Caregiving is hard, heartbreaking work and for some reason is not honored enough in our society. {{ off soapbox }}

I just want to repeat again how helpful all the advice has been on this thread. You have given me a lot to think about, mull over and to pass on to Kim.

 

[seashoreCM]

Some wills will specify that the executor will serve without compensation. In that case a person named as executor (or alternate executor etc.) could decline being or becoming executor if s/he wishes. The estate has the option of include that person among choices for an alternate alternate executor or for a yet alternate executor under different terms including compensation.

It is reasonable for an executor to be paid as s/he renders services as opposed to wait until the house is sold and all other claims and debts to be paid first. It is reasonable for an executor to engage others to perform tasks and for the estate to cover the costs.

The heirs or beneficiaries can also "fire" an executor and choose a replacement notably if the heirs or beneficiaries feel that the total costs will be less.

Been there done that twice including dealing with hoarders. The heirs one of whom was a co-executor were glad to not have to lift a finger and they gave me free unaudited run and rein of the estates and monies.

 

[Southernmiss]

Not a lawyer (even on the internet), but can comment on some of the other issues raised. Your friend and her siblings should have been having conversations about how to handle things long before the mom passed. If they waited until the mom was deceased to talk about these issues is a sure way to cause problems. Not clear to me why in the 35 yrs she has lived there some effort wasn't being made to get rid of unneeded things. Not like it was suddenly a surprise that one day they would probably be selling the house once both parents were gone. If there is nothing of value left in the house, then hiring someone to dispose of the things no one wants seems like the most straightforward way to handle that, but obviously would be a cost involved. My guess is there will likely be a lot of repairs needed to even prepare the house for sale, not clear what type of upkeep or improvements were made in the past 35 years. Someone will have to pay those costs.

As Kim's friend, you probably don't know what was discussed in the past, what sort of verbal agreements were made and perhaps are only getting Kim's side of the story. Did Kim contribute to any of the expenses of living there or did she pay rent? Did the other sister's have any role in being the mom's 'caregiver' and exactly what did that mean? Was Kim (and her brother) staying there rent-free in exchange for being a caregiver? Who actually owns the house? Obviously someone was paying the monthly bills (utilities, insurance, taxes, etc.). Were there any joint bank accounts being used for this purpose and how much is left in those accounts? Did the mom have any income/investments/savings being used to pay expenses? Exactly who paid for what and what agreements they had are certainly part of what needs to be considered. Since you likely don't know any of these things (or only hearing what Kim tells you), I really don't think you can provide much in the way of advice to her.

The issue of who pays to prepare the house for sale and how long Kim has to vacate the property seem like only a small piece of the total picture. From the descriptions provided I doubt any type of 'estate sale dealer' would have any interest in the contents of the home. Unlikely it contains valuable antiques, jewelry or other household items of significant value.

I agree. There are 2 sides to every story.

My cousin and I cleaned out our grandmother's home. She was not a hoarder, but she often joked, 'When I die, just bring in a dumpster.'

I have a closet of china and dishes that I kept for great-granddaughters who are in college and younger, but realistically they probably won't want it. I am a genealogist and kept a lot of letters and pictures. But generations behind me may not want them.

The home was solidly built in 1970 and well kept. It sold for less than expected (it was a down market) and the new owner immediately updated it and flipped it.

 

[QueenIsabella]

You could pay for ALOT of caregivers with the $400,000 (at minimum) that the sister saved by living rent free for 35 years. It has been my experience that caregivers and end of life care are very expensive, but they aren’t needed for that long. I still think the sister who has lived rent free for so long has had a pretty sweet deal.

That's the thing--we don't KNOW that the sister was living there rent/cost free. Was she paying for utilities, groceries, taxes? Was she providing cooking and cleaning services? Ferrying Mom to hair appointments and doctor's visits? Her doing (or not doing) those things would change my opinion as to what she might be entitled to now. And the far-away sister might not have a clue as to how things were being handled at Mom's house.

 

[mjkacmom]

You could pay for ALOT of caregivers with the $400,000 (at minimum) that the sister saved by living rent free for 35 years. It has been my experience that caregivers and end of life care are very expensive, but they aren’t needed for that long. I still think the sister who has lived rent free for so long has had a pretty sweet deal.

We paid around $150,000 for 3 years of care for my dad. The last 6 month my oldest daughter took over because she needed to buy a car and was full time studying for her cpa exams. He had a heart attack and died, but he was going to a home because my daughter couldn’t take it anymore, even getting paid $4000 a month. Being a caretaker can be very difficult, especially with a hoarder (which my dad’s caretaker was, filled the entire 2 car garage up to the ceiling).

 

[HopperFan]

You could pay for ALOT of caregivers with the $400,000 (at minimum) that the sister saved by living rent free for 35 years. It has been my experience that caregivers and end of life care are very expensive, but they aren’t needed for that long. I still think the sister who has lived rent free for so long has had a pretty sweet deal.

OP states she paid rent, but I'm sure not going rate since all she likely had was a bed & bath, but who says parents had the cash to pay for caregivers, especially when it came to 24/7. And daughter also gave up privacy, maybe even the opportunity to get married and have a family ...

What Mom and Dad did regarding their children living with them while they were alive was THEIR business and has nothing to do with the estate, unless will included in writing some stipulations. In many areas of this country and the world there are multigenerational houses where the parents might own the home but other family live there. I don't think because it isn't normal to someone that makes it abnormal with consequences. No reason to look down on folks for multigenerational living.

I have two adult sons who live with me. DS#1 is permanently disabled. I am his primary caregiver. When we pass it doesn't mean that he will get less of our estate. DS#2 rents a basement apartment from us. While we appreciate the rent money what I appreciate more is the assistance with physical or difficult things, the backup he can provide with his brother, dog sitter when we are gone etc. As a teacher and single, current rents are quite high for him alone so it is a win/win for both of us - and he can save money towards buying a small home. Will he get less than DD who is married and hasn't lived here in years? NO. He helps in ways that help us and save us money (like OP's friend).

In the end the ONLY thing that matters in this situation is what was happening in the last year since Mom died because it is no longer Mom's decision. This is now an estate situation. Executor can't go backwards before Mom passed, it is not her concern. But there should have been clear discussions on what happens now - a year ago right after Mom died.

Some wills will specify that the executor will serve without compensation. In that case a person named as executor (or alternate executor etc.) could decline being or becoming executor if s/he wishes. The estate has the option of include that person among choices for an alternate alternate executor or for a yet alternate executor under different terms including compensation.

The heirs or beneficiaries can also "fire" an executor and choose a replacement.

Three down, and NONE included compensation. I think this often happens when the Executor is family and also one of the beneficiaries.

Yes to declining the job, then it goes to the next person in the succession. AND yes there could be a request for a change. Some wills are decades old and sometimes the person who is Executor is not longer in a place to handle the work load but doesn't want to not fulfill. Then the problems start.

That happened with us. CO-Executors, neither wanted to do it, both ill equipped to do it AND neither had any idea of her financial situation. BUT they said since they told her decades ago they would do it they had to stay Executors. Since I was the only one who knew all her financials and had access to her safety deposit box, bank accounts etc I ended up doing most the work, getting them to sign stuff etc.

FOLKS need to look at their wills every ten years to see if anything needs updating !!!!!

 

[barkley]

I have two adult sons who live with me. DS#1 is permanently disabled. I am his primary caregiver. When we pass it doesn't mean that he will get less of our estate. DS#2 rents a basement apartment from us. While we appreciate the rent money what I appreciate more is the assistance with physical or difficult things, the backup he can provide with his brother, dog sitter when we are gone etc. As a teacher and single, current rents are quite high for him alone so it is a win/win for both of us - and he can save money towards buying a small home. Will he get less than DD who is married and hasn't lived here in years? NO. He helps in ways that help us and save us money (like OP's friend).

in our case we have one disabled adult son living with us and one thing we made sure to spell out in our wills was a provision that in the event he (or his older adult sibling for that matter) were to be living in our home at the time our estate was to be administered that there would be a 6 month time frame during which the estate would pay for the costs of the home to facilitate relocation. with our son i hope that he will be in some kind of supportive housing long before we pass but the challenges he experiences on the spectrum make that difficult at best so we wanted to ensure there wasn't an immediate necessity (or something long and drawn out) to weigh on the administrator of our estate. speaking of which-based on the HORRENDOUS experiences dh and i experienced twice doing this-we have opted to arrange for a financial institution to administer our estate. yes, it will cost our beneficiaries a not insignificant percentage of it BUT i would not put anyone i cared for through it AND since oldest would likely become youngest's guardian i don't want to put him in the circumstance where financial conflict of interest could ever be raised.

 

[HopperFan]

in our case we have one disabled adult son living with us and one thing we made sure to spell out in our wills was a provision that in the event he (or his older adult sibling for that matter) were to be living in our home at the time our estate was to be administered that there would be a 6 month time frame during which the estate would pay for the costs of the home to facilitate relocation. with our son i hope that he will be in some kind of supportive housing long before we pass but the challenges he experiences on the spectrum make that difficult at best so we wanted to ensure there wasn't an immediate necessity (or something long and drawn out) to weigh on the administrator of our estate. speaking of which-based on the HORRENDOUS experiences dh and i experienced twice doing this-we have opted to arrange for a financial institution to administer our estate. yes, it will cost our beneficiaries a not insignificant percentage of it BUT i would not put anyone i cared for through it AND since oldest would likely become youngest's guardian i don't want to put him in the circumstance where financial conflict of interest could ever be raised.

It brings a whole new level to the planning for sure. I’m just thankful we’ve gotten to point siblings aren’t minors now. Round two of planning.

 

[BayouQueen]

Kim and the brother should box up anything they want to keep and move out. The Executor can then prepare the house for sale. Any expenditures of the estate, which would include the cleaning and preparation of the house, would be deducted from the estate before the proceeds are distributed equally to the beneficiaries, or whatever the Will states.

I agree with NannyBebe here.
We had a similar situation and there was disagreement about fairness of this or that, but in the end, it comes down to moving ahead, and if anyone feels slighted, that's just the way it is. There is never complete "fairness." Care-giving has tremendous value, but is usually under-valued. The business acumen and time of the executor will be under-valued by the care-givers. Just gotta do it and move on.

 

[easyas123]

I may be in the minority here, but if I was the sister trying to settle the estate, and had 2 siblings that had lived rent free in the house for years, I would want them to step up and clean out the house. Doesn’t seem like a lot to ask after years of free living expenses. Yes, they took care of the parents. But with the price of rent these days, seems like they made out pretty good. Not understanding how they are the victims. Seems like the siblings paying their own way are the ones that got the short end of the stick. Assuming living expenses are $1000 per month, after 35 years, the sister living rent free has saved over $400,000.

Agreed -
If the sister & brother have been living in the home for such a long time, I think it's fair to say they contributed to the neglect/mess/hoarding more than the other sister.

 

[mom2rtk]

Agreed -
If the sister & brother have been living in the home for such a long time, I think it's fair to say they contributed to the neglect/mess/hoarding more than the other sister.

You have no way of knowing that. Dealing with an older person with lots of "stuff" can be an impossible task.

 

[SandyinMonterey]

Hello all DIS attorneys and lawyer-wanna-bes.

First, a little background. I have a friend, Kim, who lives in Illinois. She's in her mid-60's and moved back into her family home 35 years ago when she was divorced. I believe that Kim is on social security now. She has 3 sisters who live in the area and a brother who also lives in the family home. Kim's mom was a hoarder and the house is full of stuff and antiques. Kim was her father's caregiver before he died and was her mother's caregiver after that. Her mom died in May 2022 and one of the sisters is the executor for the estate.

The sister, quite understandably, wants to sell the house and close the probate. She gave Kim and her brother basically 30 days notice to clean the house and get out. Her sisters have told her that, since they live there, she and the brother need to do all the work to clean the hoard and prepare the house to be sold. So, Kim now needs to go through all of her 35-years of stuff PLUS all her mother's stuff. The sister told her that they already had a year to do all of this but they were not actually given a deadline until last month. It's not clear if the expectation that they clean the mom's stuff up was expressed to them before that.

I had a similar thing happen to me, except it was my sister who was the caregiver for my mom in the family hoardy-home and I was the executor. My sister was unable to help and I knew that I could not get the house ready to sell alone. I hired a company to clean the home when my sister moved out and that expense was paid back immediately out of the sale of the house at closing so the expense was shared equally even though I had not lived there in over 30 years.

Kim's sisters believe that Kim and her brother have the sole responsibility to ready the house for sale. Kim is struggling to clean up her own 35 years worth of stuff. She has never been in the best of health and she's working through joint pain and back spasms to do her best. It's pretty clear that she won't have the house sales ready by the end of the month. The sister had told them that if they need to hire a company to finish the job the cost of the clean-up will be deducted from their portion of the estate. Can she legally do that? Can she deduct the cost of cleaning from the estate proceeds of only 2 of the siblings? It's my opinion that if all of the siblings are participating in the proceeds of the house then all of them should also participate in the expenses to make it ready to sell. If Kim's sister goes through with the threat to deduct the costs from her share of the estate, what recourse does she have? It's a little fuzzy, but I think that my sister had to sign off on the distribution and I also seem to recall a point in my mom's probate where there was a time that someone can object to the distribution of the estate. I know that she *should* probably hire an attorney but she's on a very fixed income and probably can't afford one. Any ideas I can pass on to her?

I'm assuming the Mother had a Will and that everything was to be equally divided among the siblings. I was executor for my Mom, it's just me and an older sister. I was told./instructed by several people (lawyers, bankers, etc) that an account should be set up and to be as "as the estate of......(deceased person). All monies should go there so there is no "dishonesty" and when the estate is completed, equal distributions are given out (if that is how the Will is set up). The Will is supposed to be registered with the court in the state the deceased lived in. The court keeps original, it's a good idea to have copies. It also gives the executor authority to work as the executor. If your friend doesn't have a copy of the Will, it would be a good thing to ask for. I'm probably in the minority here, but the cleaning of the house and getting ready for sale is the executor's responsibility and if she/he wants money spent to complete that task, then the money comes out of the estate. I don't think the executor saying that her sister and brother who lived there should do it is legal or would stand up in court if it went that far or got someone else involved. That's the whole reason for the Will and setting up account "the estate of" is for, and to follow Mom's last wishes. Just like the money for her final expenses (unpaid bills, funeral expenses, etc....and it's the executors job to file her Mom's taxes) are to be paid of the estate account, so should anything related to the house because that's part of the estate.

 

[easyas123]

You have no way of knowing that. Dealing with an older person with lots of

No I do not, you are correct. I'm simply adding my opinion to the conversation.

 

[sasywtch]

I'm so glad someone up thread mentioned the caregiving and the stress that can come with it. You are at the mercy of the person you are caring for and it takes an emotional toll on you. You can't just decide to go away for a weekend and in some cases such as mine, I can't even take the night off without planning (and begging someone to help). I'd be interested to know if the other siblings helped at all. I'm guessing from prior experience that the answer is probably no. I've seen too many instances where the siblings didn't help, didn't think the work involved so when the person passes, they have no sympathy for the caregivers. Also for the person who said it would be 400K. Right now I would have to pay $2000 a month minimum for a part time caregiver. Did she have to have someone in the evening to make sure she didn't fall? If so, that's more $$ For your friend, a year has been long enough to have been planning on finding another place to live. It is also her responsibility to clean up her items. The items for the mother should be a joint venture taken out of the estate and not the responsibility of the caregiver. I would check for a legal aid or a law school that does legal advice. I just think the sister didn't come around a lot to help so doesn't realize how taxing being a caregiver is and doesn't care, just looking out for the money coming her way.