Price gouging?

[Dean]

Originally posted by Richyams
LOL, but you should see my 18 year old neighbor!!!!

Good one but I won't carry this any further as we'd get too far off topic and be in violation of the rules. Seriously, your example is too far fetched to add anything to the discussion. Frankly, the few times I've rented, I've never gone out and reserved time with the idea of renting. I would however rent holiday time if that's what someone wanted and agreed to the terms. The idea that one should hold back using their points (for renting or anyrthing else) for the benefit or other members is simply crazy. The only exception I could even see would be special holiday lists and lotteries where all members at that resort didn't have equal access. And even if we were going to discuss what's good for the other members, only members at THAT resort would come into consideration.

I'm still amazed this even comes up. I wonder what would happen if one posted on TUG a similar thread. I can't imagine even one supporting post but maybe we should see. I guess to me, renting my points is NO different than renting a fixed unit/week I own or any other timeshare. I find myself at times defending DVC on TUG but I don't think I'd be able to defend this one in any way. Many TUG members already see DVC members as spoiled, egotistical brats, I think this would confiirm it. Anyone else reading this thread that participates on TUG, if so, what do you think?

 

[Richyams]

I think that renting points to someone 12-15 or whatever months out who specifically want xmas in a sv or any other highly sought after reservation that is going to require day by day calling is ABSOLUTELY FINE!!!!

I think we agree there.

I think someone waking up to call at eleven months day by day for this vacation with the sole intent of auctioning it on Ebay is slimey.

How about there?

 

[gmboy95]

Well people I must say that reading this thread reminds me that I sometimes feel like we should create a secret handshake, and begin to wear DVC uniforms....I get the sense that some people feel that there is some extra special level of morality that DVC members need to live up to....It frankly seems silly on many levels.

I use all of my points and have never rented. As it stands now, some people rent there points for a variety of reasons. The system allows them to do this, and I knew this when I joined. And I dare say the rest of you knew this as well if you had done your homework. I blame no one for maximizing revenue on an asset....If this does become a cottage industry then it is up to disney to take action to change the system.

I have two tickets to this weekends yankee-red sox game...tickets are now going for $1000 dollars apiece. Should i simply sell them for face value, because so many people where not able to get tickets, or if someone is willing to give me $2000 should i take it....I dare say that the market for those tickets is $1000, and there is no shame in taking what the market offers.

I know many will attack the example, and say how dare I compare ticket scalping to DVC...well get over it ...I have no problem with disney changing the system to lessen the amount of rentals, but i also understand that it is now part of the system, and it is not OK for me to question anyones motive.

oh and PS....the anger about the 9/11 reference is a little bit silly....i think we all went through 9/11, and with the exception of those that lost loved ones, we where all effected. Lets not turn the PC police into the 9/11 police.

 

[Disney Doll]

I don't get the whole 9/11 thing...I don't see anything in anyone's post abouti, but maybe it wasremoved before I saw this thread. In any event, 9/11 and the DVC are on such completely different levels that any comparison between the two is ludicrous!

With regard to the renting thing... If it is "legaL" as per the DVC contract, there's nothing anyone can do about it. If it's unethical, well, so be it. The people who do it are the ones who have to live with themselves.

I don't rent out my points. I use them all myself . I did transfer 4 points earlier this year. We had made a reservation, I found out my dad had to have eye surgery after I had made the reservation, I had to postpone the trip, the points went into the holding account, and when I rebooked the trip, I needed 4 points less for the new booking than I did for the old booking. So I transferred them to another member. That's my only experience with renting/transferring, and it was painless.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Richyams
I think that renting points to someone 12-15 or whatever months out who specifically want xmas in a sv or any other highly sought after reservation that is going to require day by day calling is ABSOLUTELY FINE!!!!

I think we agree there.

I think someone waking up to call at eleven months day by day for this vacation with the sole intent of auctioning it on Ebay is slimey.

How about there?

Rich, the only difference is that I see little differentiation in the two scenarios you describe. Truth is I see them both as acceptable though I personally wouldn't want to book it this way. Actually I doubt I'd be willing to call day by day for a rental, it'd be enough of a pain to do it for myself and I haven't done it yet. I'll again make the distiction on the special season lists and lotteries because all members of a resort would not have equal access.

 

[Canadian Tom]

The last word. I started this thread, so I'll finish it. Lets let it die a natural death. Thanks everyone for your comments. It just goes to show, we are all different and that's OK too. Bye.

 

[Nick@ VB+OKW]

Originally posted by Canadian Tom
The last word. I started this thread, so I'll finish it. Lets let it die a natural death. Bye.

I agree........

 

[mitros]

Sorry, one last comment. I thought this kind of bickering only went on on the rumors board.....Boy, was I wrong!

 

[JimC]

Just a thought. The fact that one can does not mean one should. I don't have the quote exactly right but it is from an old ethics discussion that I remember. I think it underlies a good portion of the give and take on this thread.

Unfortunately I suspect that ethics is considered out of fashion by much of our society.

 

[mitros]

Would " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" fit?

 

[Disney1fan2002]

I personally don't thiink the business of owners renting their points for whatever reason will end. Disney won't end it...why? Disney has other's paying for their advertising. What better way to advertise than to have non-dvc members staying at a dvc resort? That is only possible in most cases if the people rent from owner's. I know myself, we rented from a dvc owner to stay at OKW last year, 5 nights and we paid the same price (maybe a little less) than what we would of paid to stay at the All Star. THAT is price gouging? I think not.

Now, as for some people being upset with what other's do with their points. IMHO, it is not your concern. You have your own set of points. Use them, rent them, give them away. Just don't concern yourself with what other's are doing with their's. Do you honestly believe that the 1st two weeks of Dec. and Christmas week have the dvc resorts FILLED with renters? If the handful of owners who book high time for a profit got a room before you, then next year call earlier.

A person can only rent their points out for what others are WILLING to pay. For instance, if you go on the rent/trade board here, it will be a hard sell to get someone to pay $11 a point, when everyone else is offering their points for $10. Ebay,as others have said, you can start the bidding, make a reserve price, and after that if it goes higher, that is not the fault of the owner. Would it make you feel better to know, the higher the price goes on Ebay, the more the seller has to pay for e-bay fees? And let's not forget Paypal fees. (if the buyer uses paypal)

Bottom line, I rented from an owner last year, and during that visit, we purchased our own dvc. If Disney stopped allowing people to rent their points, I am willing to bet their sales would drop dramatically. IMHO

 

[timC]

Sorry Tom. I know this thread has been out here a while, but I'm now getting around to weighing in...

Renting points is okay. There isn't a single consumer product out there that isn't sold and resold for profit. I don't want my government telling me I can't set up a free enterprise. If someone thinks that DVC is a good money making investment, that's fine. Personally, I think there are much better investments out there.

Renting points at whatever price you think you can get for them is also okay, as long as you are not misrepresenting them to the consumer. This is also a covenant of free enterprise. FTC would agree with me.

Now, on to what's not okay, in my opinion.

Scalping tickets for hundreds of dollars over the listed price in front of the stadium is not okay. Having all the best season tickets in the house owned by large corporations is not okay. Having all the best seats at the rock concert bought up by scarpers before the general public gets access is not okay. Reserving blocks of DVC rooms during premier seasons, thereby cutting short the supply to general members is not okay. These all have a common theme that stinks, in my opinion.

By the way, Tom, I’m a Torontonian, born and raised… Can you see a little bit of my “can’t get any good Leaf tickets” frustration here?

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by timC
Scalping tickets for hundreds of dollars over the listed price in front of the stadium is not okay. Having all the best season tickets in the house owned by large corporations is not okay. Having all the best seats at the rock concert bought up by scarpers before the general public gets access is not okay. Reserving blocks of DVC rooms during premier seasons, thereby cutting short the supply to general members is not okay. These all have a common theme that stinks, in my opinion.

Tim, there's a big difference. Scalping tickets is illegal in many states. Renting out what one owns is not illegal anywhere that I'm aware of. It may be against the rules at Condo's where NO ONE can rent or it may be controlled to only long term rentals but these type rule would apply to all who rented, DVC themselves included. A ticket is a specific items that has a short life, a specified price, and a public demand. The difference in many scalping situations, corporate seats and the like is that these were never even available to the public or season ticket holders.

 

[Kick it up a notch!]

The laws of supply and demand apply here. No matter what we think is disgusting or not these people have the right to do this and we are powerless to stop them. We don't have to be happy about it, just accept it. Disney does the same thing when they rent out the rooms for cash at these times and if this is the way people want to use their points, then they have that right. Personally I would never do such a thing, I have enough respect for the other members of the club. Unfortunately not everyone has the same sense of respect for others, that's all.

 

[timC]

Dean. I appreciate what you're saying. But IMO the issue here is not necessarily a legal one. I'm bugged by all of the examples that I quote, regardless of the legality of it.

I'm not bugged by members selling points for profit, even big profits. I am bugged by members who, from their enterprise, cut directly into the ability of other member to enjoy their points.

If these members only sold points, and not specific peak-season ressies, I'd be fine.

 

[gscott8075]

I have not visited the board in sometime. I am surprised by how rude several post are. C'mon - we can agree to disagree. Let's not be disagreeable. Doc must be caught up in a very long root canal to not have quieted this banter. Then again, a root canal would be more pleasant than reading this post.

To comment -

I have season tickets for the Ravens. I cannot go to one game. It is legal - except within the city of Baltimore - to sell tickets for more than face. I put them on eBay and got 4x face. Its capitalism, its legal, and not slimey. A willing buyer paid me a certain sum of money. They got what they paid for. No one was hurt or impacted by the transaction.

I have rented a few points when I've needed to in order to add a night. No problem. No one was hurt.

I think when people rent key weeks with the sole purpose of renting them, they are impacting other people. They are doing so with a business intent. DVC is for personal use and this type of activity on an ongoing basis could be construed as a violation of the various covenants.

There is a difference between running out of time and renting points to avoid a loss and scheduling trips for the sole purpose of selling them.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by timC
Dean. I appreciate what you're saying. But, IMO the issue here is not necessarily a legal one. I'm bugged by all of the examples that I quote, regardless of the legality of it.

I'm not bugged by members selling points for profit, even big profits. I am bugged by member who, from their enterprise, cut directly into the ability of other member to enjoy their points.

If these members only sold point, and not specific peak-season ressies, I'd be fine.

I don't see any difference. Every member that makes a reservation, exchanges their points, rents, sends family or any other activity you can think of will affect your ability to make a reservation. Would you feel the same way if certain members always got the GV or BW view or standard view, etc and you couldn't get it as long as they got it legally. Still, even if you feel this way, I don't think there's enough renting to have a significant affect on availability. I also don't believe that there is a significant amount of high demand units going day by day at 11 months to have any real affect other members as a whole. I guess I see the position of it’s OK to do it as long as it doesn’t affect me as harder to understand than those that say you shouldn’t rent points. It’s just like when there are cash rooms available and no points rooms, it’s just the way the system works.

I own at Marriott's Grande Ocean resort on HH. Owners there can reserve at exactly 12 months out. However if they own multiple floating weeks AND will be reserving concurrent or consecutive weeks, they can reserve at 13 months out. I went and bought a second week just to be able to use this option. The last 3 years I reserved 4th of July. We used both weeks in 2003 and rented for 2002 and 2004. This behavior would have fallen in a negative light for all DVC members except those that say you can rent what you own period. It's just the way the system works.

 

[golfnut1264]

gscott...doesnt ebay regulate the resale of tickets to 20%...yes they do..and you sold for 4x face value..you start out you comments like mr.righteous and you sold ravens tickets on ebay for 4x the valu when ebay has specific regulations...nobody does the dvc as a buisness...check out the numbers they dont jive...people sell excess points whether during busy times or slow times but if you thinks somebody is making a living selling points than you are uniformed...it is not money maker..selling points helps offset costs..maitenance fees,buy in price.interest on purchase, at $10 a point you are lucky to make $3 a point...at $3 point profit if you sold 1000 points a year which is an awful lot you would make $3000 a year..hardly a buisness..

 

[DSNY FN]

Hey Tim as a fellow Canadian I know what you are talking about with the hockey tickets but come on the LEAFS what did they feed you when you were a kid. I would rather go to Joe Lois and watch the Wings and anyone before going to a Leaf game. I am a HABS fan by the way so that is where my Leaf bashing comes from as I am sure you are a guy who can appreciate what beig a Leafs and Habs fan means in Canada

 

[Stelson]

We sell our Packer tickets on Ebay too when we can't make the games, but the difference is If we don't go, the seats are empty. I highly doubt that if you had not make the reservation at 11months out with the intention to sell the points at a higher rate that the rooms would not have gone to other DVC members. Maybe you will understand, if one day you are unable to get the ressie you want for your family because of another DVCer wanting to get top dollar for points.