Prayers for Taiwan

[Buzz Rules]

Praying for a peaceful outcome during this tense time for the Taiwanese people.

 

[dclpluto]

Praying for a peaceful outcome during this tense time for the Taiwanese people.

have no idea what you are talking about. Guess I have to google it since you didn’t want to say what it is.

 

[Buzz Rules]

have no idea what you are talking about. Guess I have to google it since you didn’t want to say what it is.

Trying to make this as least political as I can.

 

[Dead2009]

have no idea what you are talking about. Guess I have to google it since you didn’t want to say what it is.

China is threatening them with the military so they're preparing
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/18/asia/taiwan-f-16-fighter-combat-squadron-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

 

[notatallmagic]

Praying. I have a family member who was born there.

 

[Buzz Rules]

China is threatening them with the military so they're preparing
https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/18/asia/taiwan-f-16-fighter-combat-squadron-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

60 minutes has a special on it on YouTube.

 

[a1tinkfans]

Why is this happening? You don’t need to look far.

 

[Buzz Rules]

have no idea what you are talking about. Guess I have to google it since you didn’t want to say what it is.

Mods I hope this is okay to post. I believe this 60 minutes special is okay since it’s meant to be informative instead of political.

 

[MillauFr]

Buzz if you think the mods here are strict they are milquetoasts compared to the Chinese.

 

[Buzz Rules]

Buzz if you think the mods here are strict they are milquetoasts compared to the Chinese.

Never take freedom of speech for granted. Our Mods are fair and awesome.

 

[tasha99]

Praying. I have a family member who was born there.

Same here . . .

 

[Communicore1991]

I do agree the Taiwanese need not only our prayers but support too but I do have a question since I'm not well versed in what's going on over there: haven't they been threatened by China for awhile? I thought China has been saying for decades that Taiwan is a territory of theirs. Has something changed recently that has caused the level of concern to be upped?

 

[Christine]

I do agree the Taiwanese need not only our prayers but support too but I do have a question since I'm not well versed in what's going on over there: haven't they been threatened by China for awhile? I thought China has been saying for decades that Taiwan is a territory of theirs. Has something changed recently that has caused the level of concern to be upped?

Yes, they have. Nothing new here. I have spent my career working for the federal government in support of foreign militaries and the U.S. helping to defend them and helping them to defend themselves. Taiwan has been a long-time 'customer' and I worked directly with their military department for about 10 years and it has been all about maintaining a defense capability against China. Decades a ago, there was a positive outlook that Taiwan could maintain their independence with their own military posture and the help of the U.S. Over the past 10 years or so, China has gotten much more aggressive, bold, and militarily capable to the point that they are probably meeting and/or I daresay surpassing U.S. military capability. This did not happen in the last few weeks, anyhow. Let's hope we don't get the underhanded remarks on this thread that all of this is attributed to any one leader, policy, etc. The alarm bells have been ringing loudly for several years now. Personally, I don't have any confidence that they can retain their independence and it's really awful.

 

[Communicore1991]

Yes, they have. Nothing new here. I have spent my career working for the federal government in support of foreign militaries and the U.S. helping to defend them and helping them to defend themselves. Taiwan has been a long-time 'customer' and I worked directly with their military department for about 10 years and it has been all about maintaining a defense capability against China. Decades a ago, there was a positive outlook that Taiwan could maintain their independence with their own military posture and the help of the U.S. Over the past 10 years or so, China has gotten much more aggressive, bold, and militarily capable to the point that they are probably meeting and/or I daresay surpassing U.S. military capability. This did not happen in the last few weeks, anyhow. Let's hope we don't get the underhanded remarks on this thread that all of this is attributed to any one leader, policy, etc. The alarm bells have been ringing loudly for several years now. Personally, I don't have any confidence that they can retain their independence and it's really awful.

You bring up a good point about China's military becoming more powerful. I had totally forgotten about that. And I believe someone in the Pentagon recently came out and said that China's military is now larger or more powerful or more capable (I forgot exactly what it was) than ours. Now that's pretty scary

 

[Christine]

You bring up a good point about China's military becoming more powerful. I had totally forgotten about that. And I believe someone in the Pentagon recently came out and said that China's military is now larger or more powerful or more capable (I forgot exactly what it was) than ours. Now that's pretty scary

Absolutely. I work for one of the military departments and this is a constant theme on our radar. I'm not sure we are up to their military strength anymore. Pains me to even say that, but it's a fact and people are worried. This country spends a TON of money on defense but, even with that, at least where I work, we've taken significant cuts in areas that don't need cuts. They try their best to just cut personnel so the equipment can be kept up, but everyone is now worked to the bone. I'm not sure what the answer is. But, yeah, Taiwan is probably in a world of hurt. And remember all that "kerfuffle" a few months ago about France, the UK, Australia and the subs debacle. This is all urgent stuff related to China.

 

[Communicore1991]

Absolutely. I work for one of the military departments and this is a constant theme on our radar. I'm not sure we are up to their military strength anymore. Pains me to even say that, but it's a fact and people are worried. This country spends a TON of money on defense but, even with that, at least where I work, we've taken significant cuts in areas that don't need cuts. They try their best to just cut personnel so the equipment can be kept up, but everyone is now worked to the bone. I'm not sure what the answer is. But, yeah, Taiwan is probably in a world of hurt. And remember all that "kerfuffle" a few months ago about France, the UK, Australia and the subs debacle. This is all urgent stuff related to China.

Yeah that "kerfuffle" was a horrible blow to our friendship with France, one of our oldest allies. These are the times we need to be staying the course with our allies, not doing side deals with some and cutting out others.

 

[Buzz Rules]

Yeah that "kerfuffle" was a horrible blow to our friendship with France, one of our oldest allies. These are the times we need to be staying the course with our allies, not doing side deals with some and cutting out others.

To be fair, we are giving Australia a better product than the French. The French are mad due to a relevancy issue that they want to project onto the world (in comparison to the USA) in the Pacific. AUKUS is partly based on the fact that all three countries are part of the “5 eyes club”. France is not. The deal was a better deal over all for all parties involved. France will always be an ally no matter what since we are NATO allies.

 

[Christine]

To be fair, we are giving Australia a better product than the French. The French are mad due to a relevancy issue that they want to project onto the world (in comparison to the USA) in the Pacific. AUKUS is partly based on the fact that all three countries are part of the “5 eyes club”. France is not. The deal was a better deal over all for all parties involved. France will always be an ally no matter what since we are NATO allies.

What's really different here is that Australia will be building these submarines. We are selling them technology and expertise--the same technology and expertise that the U.S. and U.K. have partened on for many years. So, in that sense, Australia is not buying a built submarine from another country as they would have been doing with France. There were problems on that France deal that Australia was already pretty nervous about and Australia terminated. Why the U.S. got the harshest blame on that, I'll never understand. While simplistic, I puzzled over this in this way:

Imagine a small town of businesses that all know each other and were friendly. John owns a coffee shop and buys pastries from Baker Jane and has done so for many years. Baker Jane provides John with a standard cinammon roll that she's been making since 1980. These pastries are pretty good but not the best and they are costing John a good amount of money with very little profit as they aren't wildly popular for the changing customer base. Not too mention, Bake Jane has had delivery problems of late and unexplained cost increases that have left John in the lurch at times. A couple other bakers in town, Judy and Jim, are known for their fantastic pastries-specifically Judy makes a great cranberry scone and Jim produces a wonderful clotted cream whip concotion that works well with the scones and Judy actually contracts out to Jim to get the cream to sell in her bakery. These items together create a product that is far superior to Baker Jane's pastries, although expensive. Coffee Shop John decides he actually wants to pay Judy and Jim each a flat fee to buy the rights to their recipe for the scone and cream, and hire in a chef to make them onsite. Baker Jane loses out on her deal with Coffee Shop John and she's mad. But she's not mad at Coffee Shop John and only mildly ticked off at Scone Judy. She decides to be really mad at Clotted Cream Jim. We can't figure out why she's specifically mad at Jim more so than the others. After all, it was Coffee Shop John who went behind her back and found a better deal. Was it up to Scone Judy and Clotted Cream Jim to tell Baker Jane that Coffee Shop Jim was out looking for new pastries? That's business information, not gossip. (I know--way too many J names here!!).

 

[bcla]

You bring up a good point about China's military becoming more powerful. I had totally forgotten about that. And I believe someone in the Pentagon recently came out and said that China's military is now larger or more powerful or more capable (I forgot exactly what it was) than ours. Now that's pretty scary

China's military is not on par with that of the United States. They've also never fought a hot war in decades. They theoretically have numbers, but as of today they don't have a blue water navy, and their ship numbers are deceptive because they tend to have smaller ones. They also don't have the supply lines or (most importantly) allies willing to fight with them. They've been negotiating for access to bases overseas, but they have nothing like what the US, NATO, and other allied nations have. I guess they theoretically still have a military alliance with North Korea. That's about it.

https://thediplomat.com/2021/04/yes...-navy-that-matters-less-than-you-might-think/​

What such discussions fundamentally misunderstand about the two fleets, however, are the major differences in force structure as well as the incomparable regional ally differential maintained by the United States. In fact, most discussions about the size of the PLAN inflate its surface warship fleet by including either small coastal patrol ships or its amphibious transports and landing ships.​

​

In order of descending size, the PLAN’s surface force is comprised of two aircraft carriers, one cruiser, 32 destroyers, 49 frigates, 37 corvettes, and 86 missile-armed coastal patrol ships. In addition, China’s submarine fleet includes 46 diesel-powered attack submarines, six nuclear-powered attack submarines, and four ballistic missile submarines. This is further supplemented by the China Coast Guard, which fields roughly 255 coastal patrol ships. In sum, China has a surface warship fleet of 121 vessels, a submarine fleet of 56 platforms, and another 341 coastal patrol ships.​

​

For its part the United States Navy boasts a surface fleet of 11 aircraft carriers, 92 cruisers and destroyers, and 59 small surface combatants and combat logistics ships. Its submarine fleet is comprised of 50 attack submarines, 14 ballistic missile submarines, and four cruise missile submarines. As such, the United States maintains a surface fleet of about 162 vessels, depending on the inclusion of its small combatants and combat logistics ships, and a submarine fleet of 68 platforms.​

​

Here we clearly see that talk of China’s massive navy is rather out of proportion. It should be noted that China’s fleet relies disproportionately on smaller classes of ships, like the frigate and corvette, which are widely considered not to be major surface combatants. Even still, the bulk of its numbers advantage comes from its coastal patrol ships which, while not insignificant, have limited capacity to project power beyond China’s near seas. Further, the United States maintains a massive carrier advantage. Wherever one falls on the debate over the continued viability of aircraft carriers, the fact remains that both states are interested in producing them.​

​

Even more confounding is the conspicuous failure to account for U.S. allies, which are generally referenced only as brief afterthoughts in discussions of the need for the United States to ramp up its naval forces. Ostensibly, the naval buildup is aimed at reassuring U.S. regional allies. Yet the naval forces of such allies are seldom, if ever, part of the equation. At a time when much of the U.S. national security ethos has placed emphasis on “making allies pay their fair share,” it’s a rather paradoxical initiative.​

​

For reference, China’s single formal ally – North Korea – maintains a handful of submarines and coastal patrol vessels. In contrast, the United States has formal military alliances with six Indo-Pacific states – Australia, Japan, New Zealand, the Philippines, South Korea, and Thailand. Moreover, many regional powers – notably India, Indonesia, Singapore, Taiwan, and Vietnam – maintain ever-deepening security relationships with the United States due precisely to concerns over potential threats from China.​

If it ever came down to an actual war, China would likely be going at it alone. It really wouldn't make any sense for that to happen. If they were looking to defend themselves against an attack of their own shoreline they might be in pretty good shape, but who is really looking to invade China? But their ability to project power even as far as just off their coast is limited. They would need ships that could transport tanks, and that's just not happening any time soon.

 

[Buzz Rules]

China's military is not on par with that of the United States. They've also never fought a hot war in decades. They theoretically have numbers, but as of today they don't have a blue water navy, and their ship numbers are deceptive because they tend to have smaller ones. They also don't have the supply lines or (most importantly) allies willing to fight with them. They've been negotiating for access to bases overseas, but they have nothing like what the US, NATO, and other allied nations have. I guess they theoretically still have a military alliance with North Korea. That's about it.

https://thediplomat.com/2021/04/yes...-navy-that-matters-less-than-you-might-think/​

What such discussions fundamentally misunderstand about the two fleets, however, are the major differences in force structure as well as the incomparable regional ally differential maintained by the United States. In fact, most discussions about the size of the PLAN inflate its surface warship fleet by including either small coastal patrol ships or its amphibious transports and landing ships.​

​

In order of descending size, the PLAN’s surface force is comprised of two aircraft carriers, one cruiser, 32 destroyers, 49 frigates, 37 corvettes, and 86 missile-armed coastal patrol ships. In addition, China’s submarine fleet includes 46 diesel-powered attack submarines, six nuclear-powered attack submarines, and four ballistic missile submarines. This is further supplemented by the China Coast Guard, which fields roughly 255 coastal patrol ships. In sum, China has a surface warship fleet of 121 vessels, a submarine fleet of 56 platforms, and another 341 coastal patrol ships.​

​

For its part the United States Navy boasts a surface fleet of 11 aircraft carriers, 92 cruisers and destroyers, and 59 small surface combatants and combat logistics ships. Its submarine fleet is comprised of 50 attack submarines, 14 ballistic missile submarines, and four cruise missile submarines. As such, the United States maintains a surface fleet of about 162 vessels, depending on the inclusion of its small combatants and combat logistics ships, and a submarine fleet of 68 platforms.​

​

Here we clearly see that talk of China’s massive navy is rather out of proportion. It should be noted that China’s fleet relies disproportionately on smaller classes of ships, like the frigate and corvette, which are widely considered not to be major surface combatants. Even still, the bulk of its numbers advantage comes from its coastal patrol ships which, while not insignificant, have limited capacity to project power beyond China’s near seas. Further, the United States maintains a massive carrier advantage. Wherever one falls on the debate over the continued viability of aircraft carriers, the fact remains that both states are interested in producing them.​

​

Even more confounding is the conspicuous failure to account for U.S. allies, which are generally referenced only as brief afterthoughts in discussions of the need for the United States to ramp up its naval forces. Ostensibly, the naval buildup is aimed at reassuring U.S. regional allies. Yet the naval forces of such allies are seldom, if ever, part of the equation. At a time when much of the U.S. national security ethos has placed emphasis on “making allies pay their fair share,” it’s a rather paradoxical initiative.​

​

For reference, China’s single formal ally – North Korea – maintains a handful of submarines and coastal patrol vessels. In contrast, the United States has formal military alliances with six Indo-Pacific states – Australia, Japan, New Zealand, the Philippines, South Korea, and Thailand. Moreover, many regional powers – notably India, Indonesia, Singapore, Taiwan, and Vietnam – maintain ever-deepening security relationships with the United States due precisely to concerns over potential threats from China.​

If it ever came down to an actual war, China would likely be going at it alone. It really wouldn't make any sense for that to happen. If they were looking to defend themselves against an attack of their own shoreline they might be in pretty good shape, but who is really looking to invade China? But their ability to project power even as far as just off their coast is limited. They would need ships that could transport tanks, and that's just not happening any time soon.

Russia and China are allies or are they not?