Pop Century

[JeffJewell]

Jeff, Now we're getting back into a different question. A question I try to avoid. I think its fairly obvious that if your going to have such a large number of rooms, some of them simply can't be near the parks.

...well, it's a different question, but I think it's the underlying question.

Is it in Disney's best interests as a company to compete on the commodity level? Is it possible to maintain "Disney Standards," whatever that means to you, if Disney has set itself against companies that never cared about Disney Standards, that are only interested in making as much money as possible?

Disney was once creating masterpieces as they went along, original and packed with detail and effort, whether or not those works all happened to capture the audience. Now, Disney is largely running off prints, pretty much the same as what's available elsewhere, but in much huger numbers than the masterpieces.

Are the masterpieces or the prints the better goal? Well, just about anyone can run off prints, so Disney is at the mercy of price points and fickle consumers if that's the business choice they make. Not everyone can make masterpieces, and if you're talented enough to be that kind of creator, you'll maintain your market simply because your customers have no where else to go to get such a product.

If you want a business that is likely to capture and maintain an audience over long periods of time, through economic uptimes and downtimes, making the masterpieces is the way to go. If you want to subject yourself to the whims of the mass market and the winds of the economy, well, running off the prints fit that bill quite nicely.

Jeff

PS: Of course, that leaves us with the question of whether or not years of running off prints has destroyed Disney's capacity for the masterpieces, altogether...

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

YoHo!! I can't believe that you can fall for this type of spin. If a restaurant doesn't make a profit, in other words isn't self sustaining, they close it down! PERIOD!! End of conversation!! And it doesn't matter where it is. Do you really think that if a Cape May's or California Grill wasn't making money they'd keep it open just because it resides in a "Deluxe" resort? How absurd!! And conversely they could certainly put a Table-dining restaurant into a Value if they chose to. Let it sink or swim on it's own merits. The point is they don't chose to. Why? In order to further their class distinction!! That caste system was first instituted when the Caribbean Beach was opened. It had no table-dining. Just a food court. Until, that is, the All Stars were built. Then, suddenly, a table dining restaurant opened at the resort. Just coincidence? I don't think so!! They needed to add one in order to delineate and justify the cost difference!

So, I unilaterally discount table-dining as a reason for the extra costs. As for the "amenities", some yes, some no! I really don't know how to answer the whirlpool question. I would suspect that this perk affects very few guests. And I really think that it either wouldn't be considered mandatory if included and would be missed by a very small minority if excluded.

That leaves bell service and watersports. Now, I'll give you no argument about bell service. I do indeed think this is not only an additional cost (relatively little however) for the resort, but also an amenity that could be considered a 'deal breaker', depending on how you vacation and personal desires. But watersports!!?? Just what the heck is meant by this?!?

So what other things can clearly depict a difference in the public's mind? What would grab the customer's attention, right away, that tells them, I am getting a deal or for a few buck more a real "Disney" experience can be mine? How about theme vs. decorations?

Larworth you hit the nail on the head.

If we are not talking matters of taste than we are back to that elusive question of minimum standards across the resort. We sure don't want Disney to do anything that devalues the brand.

That is exactly what has happened. But it came so slowly and was "reasoned" by way of "value" that the company could get away with it and the general population bought it. Heck! It's only in hindsight that even yours truly really figured out what had happened. The Captain always wants me to give Ei$ner credit for a job well done! Well, Ei$ner was masterful in his approach! He slowly and efficiently eroded the Disney Standard, created different Disney experiences according to class, until we are all left squabbling here as to the 'true' definition of the term. Job well done Ei$ner!!

Let's go ahead and use the A-E ticket analogy. What I hear some people arguing is that the values been not been plussed enough to qualify as a Disney A ticket hotel. The effort here is below the effort Disney makes to take a commodity flat ride and turn it into a Disney A ticket attraction.

How perfect an analogy!!

Well, I disagree. I am just thinking of where this is going. These cheap motel rooms don't fit into the Disney you want. Therefore my family does not fit into the Disney you want.

WOW!! Slow down there, partner!! It is definitely true that these 'cheap motel rooms' don't fit into what I consider "Disney Standards". But that does not necessarily mean that those that stay there don't. If not for the DVC I would be staying there as well. No! I don't blame the people who stay there at all. It has nothing to do with socioeconomic standing or disposable income or even personal taste. I blame Disney!! And more particularly, I blame Ei$ner for giving us this garbage, wrapping a forty foot icon around it and having the nerve to call it a "Disney experience"!! SHAME ON HIM!! He should know better!!

 

[JeffJewell]

DVC95-BW...

an ex-Disney Imagineering friend said that Disney is also considering significant plussing and new attraction investments while the parks are not as full

...I sure hope this turns out to be the case. It's certainly the logical and time-tested way to grow a business: during slow times, you feed and water the horse so you can ride him for all he's worth when it's time to run again.

hopemax...

Basically all things being equal but no giant icons, and a different color pallette. Which would still choose #1?

...at that point, I'd really have to decide what, precisely, I was going to do that trip, and would make my decision largely based on where on property the two were located, in relation to things I wanted to do. As many have pointed out, it's unlikely you'll spend much time at either of those hotels, anyway, you'll be going off doing other things and just coming back to sleep; so the choice would be which hotel most facilitated that coming and going (for instance, when I was choosing a moderate for a trip a couple years ago, DxL won on the basis of the boat to the Downtown Disney and Disney Institute area. That was the trip when Suzy and I each took several DI classes [we're two of the probably seven people who actually lament the closing of DI to one-off day guests], ate at Fulton's and Rainforest Cafe, and did two years worth of Christmas shopping at WoD).

CapHook...

I will quit reading and posting to the thread. You can theorize all you want to and I will not bother you any more.

...it was not my intention to run you off, but merely to reiterate that my position is not for or against any particular family's vacation plans.

Jeff

 

[YoHo]

Landbaron, I was not attempting to SPIN anything or buy into spin. It is a little Devious to Plus CBR when the Allstars came out. At the same time, the Proximity of said resturant is the added amenity. As a guest at any Disney resort, I currently have the privlege of using Disney Transportation to get to any Disney resort AND to use the Dining Facilities at that resort, but If I want to Dine at Victoria and Albert's (an extreme example) isn't it a plus to be staying within close walking distance? might it be worth some small amount more?

Watersports refers to the sprites(or whatever they're called now) and such. everyone has acces to them (I realize that at OKW you need to go to DTD to use them, so its a bit of a stretch, but still its available). But the Deluxe resorts have more immediate access. its all about proximity.


I'm not going to argue about caste systems, its counter productive and in case you've already forgotten, causes a lot of bad blood. Its simply not worth it.

I just think that based on previous construction (namely Disneyland) it would have been preferable for a lower priced resort to be more plain looking, not garish looking.

I personally don't think disney is getting into a comodity market here. Even with the Value resorts they sell something nobody else can offer.

As I hinted at earlier on, We the consumers have changed the way we want our Disney expireance. I suppose that Eisner and company have helped or hurt us along the way, but ultimatly we changed it and Disney adapted to it, Just as Disneyland HAD to change the way they did buisness when WDW turned them from a destination into a locals park. We see how DCA, an attempt to reverse that failed.

It may be in Disney's best interest to do what we the people most want, but to do it with Disney quality and for the good lord's sake NOT with large plastic Icons.

 

[hopemax]

So how does the average Disney guest get these $75 Contemporary rooms. According to the Disney.com website and the travel brochures you get at your local travel agency says they are? (and I do know about calling CRO, but I've never seen $75)

2001 Room Rates Wing Room $ 260 $ 285 $ 330 $ 370

 

[Eeyore2U]

I started this thread because the Pop Century are <font size=8>UGLY.</font>

Can we please agree that they are <font size=8>UGLY!!!!</font>

 

[Janet2k]

Could someone please post a link to some recent Pop Century photographs so that I may join in on the fun? I feel so left out.

 

[SPAGo 98]

I don't really think they areUGLY. They're not beautiful, but I wouldn't call them UGLY. Sorry.

 

[Planogirl]

First of all congratulations. It doesn't get any better than that.

Secondly, kids will surprise you. I took my 8 year old to the Allstars last June for the first time. He has stayed in the Poly and we visit it often when we don't stay there. We visited the Poly again and he asked me if we couldn't stay there again. I asked him if he didn't like the Allstars and he said that they were OK but the Poly was better. So you never know...

By the way, I'd pick Hotel #2 if it had the same pricing as the Allstars. Anything to get away from those ugly stars.

 

[Eeyore2U]

SPAgo 98,

When did you see them? I saw them between 9/30-10/6 and they were quite disgusting.

 

[Peter Pirate]

See Eyore2U, now we're getting totally subjective because while I think it's quite laughable and not a place I'd like to stay, I don't find it disgusting. My 8 year-old (a Disney veteran of S/D, BC, Poly, AKL & CSR- all numerous times) thinks it looks really cool, expecially the Bowling Pinconfused: ). Even my 12 year old finds the "odd look" (her words) intriguing.

Only time will tell if they should have been built or not and the only real test will be their capacity - I'm not addressing Yoho, JJ & Landbaron's "they never should have been built" agrgument as thats a totally different realm...

 

[JeffJewell]

contemporary garden wing...the most poorly, weakly, and pathetically themed Disney resort ever...heck, even if you don't like AllStars, at least it only costs you 75 bucks a nite rather than the $200 plus they charge you at the Contemporary Red Roof Inn wings....dooh....

... I'd just like to commemorate an occasion when we agree completely.

And take the oppotunity to add my congratulations. You'll have to rename the ranch "Raisin Bran."

Jeff

PS:

Baby Scoop just whispered something about how kids like Big Buzz and Mighty Ducks and don't give a flying flip about being immersed into the admittedly beautiful but all too different purposed French Quarter....Or did that ONE original point in my thread just get completely ignored...

didn't mean to ignore it, thought YoHo'd kinda covered it with his suggestions on a making a kid-friendly theme more immersive. If the scooplet likes a big stationary Buzz outside, imagine how he'd like entering his room to find out it's Andy's room, and the check-in building was Al's Toy Barn, and the food court... well, the food court would have to be themed as the baggage sorting conveyors...

 

[Eeyore2U]

I agree Peter that we all have our own taste and outlook. My original post was to express how visually unappealing the Pop Century was. I'm just staying true to my post and my convictions. I don't begrudge anyone theirs but did you think about getting you 8 year old's eyes checked (just kidding)

I find it funny how a comment went in so many different and interesting directions.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I find it funny how a comment went is so many different and interesting directions.

This this is just another interesting facet that we Rumors Board "friends" share. Additionally, many of us have been disagreeing for quite sometime and we'll remember comments & inuendo from threads long gone...Entertaining to us participants (yourself now included), but confusing to a newbie, I suppose.

Really only one tenant needs to be remembered and that is that the riders of car #1 are way closer to the truth than the #2 riders & the Screemin three-mees!

 

[Eeyore2U]

Lol, does this mean I qualify for the Rumor Board Clique/Snobs?

 

[DisDuck]

Just remember guys/gals, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (my daughter,16, likes the just icons of AllStar and would rather stay at AS than Coronado).

This from a guy who thinks he is a duck (my first bathtub toy, quack quack).

Hey scoops, ask you kid what he thinks about ducks.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Eyore2U, you're officially NOT A SNOB! Remember, most people didn't really like that thread!!!

But if you follow the Landbaron mindset, you will be labeled WRONG!


DisDuck, we tried to arrange a quick trip to DL/DCA this week, but couldn't get it put together. So it's up to you my friend, to tell me what I really think of DCA! Can you handle the stress of carrying us car # 1er's on your shoulders???

 

[YoHo]

First of all Peter err Captain, I don't think they should have never been built. I do think they should have used better taste when building them. of course that is a personal opinion.

I will Disagree with Jeffjewell and dscoop about the themeing in the contemporary, but at the same time, I can't bring myself to praise it the way landbaron does. It just rings hollow. My first impression is that he's saying because Roy built it, it must have good themeing, yes that must be it.

(everyone remember the Simpsons episode where Mr. Skinner turns out to really be Arman Tamzarian and the real Mr. Skinner comes back? They show the flashback where Mrs. Skinner (mom) greets Tamzarian at the front door and convinces herself that this must be her son? That's the way landbaron sounds. Well, Roy built it, so it must be good.)

Also, Dscoop, you keep missing my point. a room themed like
Toystory is NOT expensive. I'm not talking exteriors here, I'm talking interiors. Trust me, it could be done on the cheap and would look much better to my eyes.



I've been thinking about this all weekend, and I'd really like to expand on a suggestion I made to Landbaron.

Is it possible that we the Guests have over the years Changed the way we visit Disneyworld?

Let me expand. Many DIS regulars list their visits in their signature. Take a good look. Ever notice how there's maybe one trip in the 70's, one maybe 2 in the eighties, then BABAM (kickin it up a notch) in the 90's there is like 4 or 5 trips.

Is it just me or does that denote a changing pattern?

And don't blame a 3rd or 4th park, that doesn't explain it.
Something happened.


Now, before anyone objects, I know the likes of Landbaron went often starting in the seventies, but Somehow I can't imagine they were the norm. I'm willing to bet That I am more like the norm, so lets look into it.

I went sometime between 1976 and 1979 (don't know, was a little kid) Stayed off site
Went in 1986 Drove, stayed offsite.
Went in 1989 stayed at the polynesian
Went in 1990 (mother had medical conference at Contemporary, stayed there real real cheap)
Went 1996 (with college friends, stayed at OKW)
went in 1999 with college friends stayed at Poly. Very expensive trip.
Went jan 2000 with now fiancee, stayed at Contemp.
(went to DL sometime in 70's also went to DL in Dec 2000 which cost as much as a trip to WDW)

My family was not poor in the 80's, yet we only went twice. Couldn't even afford the Poly with its cheaper rates.

Conclusion, even at $75 rack rate, the poly was too expensive for many guests.


Now lets fast forward. My family spent YEARS saving for that 89 WDW trip. I'll bet most of us can remember the scrimping and saving for the big WDW trip. That's the way things were. you saved your money for a couple years and then you went.
Then all of a sudden, People start going more often. it seemed to pick up momentum in the early 90's. Maybe the 3rd gate spurred this. maybe the general increase in wealth and the ability to drop this much money did this. the results were trips every two years instead of twice a decade. Disney is swamped, they can fill every room without trying. Yet there are thousands of guests that want in on this that still can't afford it. Bam, they build the Allstars and everyone is happy.


The way we visit WDW has drastically changed and WDW has accomidated us and we are all happy they have done so. Were we to gather the entire population of the DIS together in one room and asked

ARE YOU HAPPY THAT DISNEY BUILT VALUE HOTELS WITH A RACK RATE OF $79 A NIGHT WHICH BY THE WAY WOULD HAVE BEEN $34.54 IN 1980?

The Deafining responses of Yes would drown out the meek no.


All of which doesn't change the fact that I THINK they are ugly!

 

[hopemax]

my only concern (and yes this is a retread topic) but would be whether Disney could create this type of incredible resort but only charge the current AllStars rates...

I don't understand the jumping to the other end of the extreme. I don't think anyone is asking that Disney create this incredible resort at All Stars pricing, just that they had choices that would have less people saying "That's ugly."

And I'm still waiting to hear about these $75 Contemporary rooms that the average Disney guest would know are available for their vacation instead of the All-Stars.

 

[YoHo]

hopemax, your misreading thedscoop's post, he's saying that they SHOULD charge $75 for the contemp, not that they do.