Pop Century: Yea or Nay?

[YoHo]

Originally posted by gcurling
Yet, cristen, there are a couple thousand people every night facing that pricing decision and electing to choose the poodle skirt.

This thread still stinks of "you don't know what's good for you."

At the risk of making this quote.

Isn't that a very crass way of discribing exactly what Walt did?

There was nobody out their besides Walt himself clamoring for something better then the basic carny style amusment park. Walt knew better, Walt built better and people flocked to Disneyland. I'd be curious to know if a day at Disney cost more in 55 then your typical amusment park? I'd lay favorable odds that it did.

The Masses don't always know what's good for them, or more specifically, they don't always know that they are missing out on.

How many satisfied Poop guests stayed at the Poly in the Seventies? That would be an interesting figure to know with more relevence in this debate then the average person here likely provides.

If you've only expereinced the Deluxes at Market Value prices, how can you understand what you're really missing?


In another way, we aren't saying you don't know what's good for you (Greg, you are the posterboy for loving the values, so you must bare the brunt of all of this regardless of whether you want to). All we are saying is that what's good for you right now isn't Disney. It isn't what they, the Walt Disney Corporation SHOULD have given you, whether you like it or not.

George Lucas made Star Wars Episode 1. That's what I get for an Episode 1. It will never be replaced.

It's an ok movie in that it has lightsaber battles and Palpatine and R2D2, but it certainly isn't up to par with the Original Trilogy. It lacks the feel of a Star Wars movie. The pacing is bad. It's the Value resort of the Star Wars Movies. Fiberglass Lightsaber battles instead of real movie magic.


But YoHo, it made a lot of money and their are millions of people that love it.


Yeah, those people are wrong to think it's a Star Wars caliber movie, just like people who think the current Values are wrong to think they are Disney Caliber, even if they do find significant enjoyment in them.

Escalators and Shopping Carts.
Being enjoyable and being Disney are NOT the same thing.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"viking-the idea of building something you know huge segments of the population won't like so that it remains available for segments who can't afford the good stuff is obsene. It's disgusting. "***

You know as well as I do that your comment is an over simplification of the point I was trying to make about your first similar comment.

The reason a true Value resort can never be a replica of a Deluxe at value prices is because obviously the old Deluxe will be abandoned. A Value resort must provide a pleasurable experience for the guest at a price that will allow them to enjoy the magic of being on property. By all accounts from people who have stayed there, AS/PC is doing just that, without Poly guests canceling their ressies in order to stay there also.

***"As for your answers-am I to take them as a whole? All of these makes a non disney resort? Or does it just take one, or a combo, or something like that. If pop's food court went under a 2 year rehab, would it not be a disney resort for 2 years?"***

Never thought of them as individual resorts, but the more I think about it any one of those elements would make for a non-Disney experience. However, a foodcourt under rehab would not disqualify a true Value resort the same as the pool rehab at Poly and GF did not exclude them. Rehab's are not a factor in this type of debate.

 

[YoHo]

It's a true mark of the misunderstanding between the "Element" and the Pixie Dust Junkies

That Staying "On Property" is somehow the mark of what is or isn't magical.

As if an Army Pup tent in the Swamp with an LOS pass and a Bus stop would be Disney Magic. (OMG HYPERBOLE)

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"The Masses don't always know what's good for them, or more specifically, they don't always know that they are missing out on."***

YoHo, this statement is correct for a lot of things in life, but I'm not certain it applies to WDW. Disney has done a great job of educating the public about what to expect from the property. Nobody checks into PC and later by mistake wonders into the Poly and "oh poop, if I'd known about this place I never would have stayed at PC".

 

[SnackyStacky]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
***"viking-the idea of building something you know huge segments of the population won't like so that it remains available for segments who can't afford the good stuff is obsene. It's disgusting. "***

You know as well as I do that your comment is an over simplification of the point I was trying to make about your first similar comment.

The reason a true Value resort can never be a replica of a Deluxe at value prices is because obviously the old Deluxe will be abandoned.

I think what you just said speaks volumes. There's a difference between a RESORT, and a MOTEL. If you're gonna build a motel, then charge motel prices for it.

the magic of being on property

What is the magic of being on property? Could you please explain that to me? If that were the case, then just walking along a highway "on property" could be construed as magical.

Never thought of them as individual resorts, but the more I think about it any one of those elements would make for a non-Disney experience. However, a foodcourt under rehab would not disqualify a true Value resort the same as the pool rehab at Poly and GF did not exclude them. Rehab's are not a factor in this type of debate.

I really find it funny that magic is being quantified.

 

[All Aboard]

Yeah, those people are wrong to think it's a Star Wars caliber movie, just like people who think the current Values are wrong to think they are Disney Caliber, even if they do find significant enjoyment in them.

A couple of quick thoughts (as I've entered the "less than 24 hours till my departure for WDW" Zone - so my glasses may get a bit more rosey from here on in.)

Lucas is selling Ep 1 and Ep 4 as full blown feature films for the same price. Disney is not selling ASMu and the Poly for the same price.

Is Ep4 Casablanca quality? Is it The Godfather or Citizen Can quality? Couldn't it have been?

 

[KNWVIKING]

***" As if an Army Pup tent in the Swamp with an LOS pass and a Bus stop would be Disney Magic. (OMG HYPERBOLE"***

The only thing you left out of your rediculas statement was Matt's Pornorama.


***"It's a true mark of the misunderstanding between the "Element" and the Pixie Dust Junkies

That Staying "On Property" is somehow the mark of what is or isn't magical."***

Ooops, this board has Moderators. I won't comment.

 

[bretsyboo]

Originally posted by gcurling
A couple of quick thoughts (as I've entered the "less than 24 hours till my departure for WDW" Zone - so my glasses may get a bit more rosey from here on in.)

Lucas is selling Ep 1 and Ep 4 as full blown feature films for the same price. Disney is not selling ASMu and the Poly for the same price.

Is Ep4 Casablanca quality? Is it The Godfather or Citizen Can quality? Couldn't it have been?

paleeez! my question!

 

[YoHo]

OMG JOKING

My Hyperbole stands though, maybe they charge $5, spray paint some mickey sillouettes on the tent and a gator trap free of charge.


Greg, some people, critics included would say that Eppy 4 is in fact that calibre of a movie, but more importantly, Lucas didn't make Casablanca or Citizen Kane. What relevence do they have?

That's like saying that the Poly isn't good enough, because some resort on Tahiti is better.

We can only compare Lucas to Lucas, just as we can only compare Disney to Disney. Walt Disney set a standard for what it needs to be to bare his name. That standard was well defined. the Values don't meet that standard. How many people enjoy them is irrelevent to those statments (that I would call facts)

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"What is the magic of being on property? Could you please explain that to me?"***

There was a thread a long time ago that had some great answers to this question, although the question was posed as the topic and not a point-counter-point game of one-upmanship.

I've stayed both on & off property. I might not be able to explain "the magic", but I know I experience it when I'm on property. The easy answer would be to say EE or EMH, but for me at least it's not that. We stayed at Disney's Vero resort a couple years ago.....great resort. But every time I left the resort, I was back in the real world. There was nothing vacation-like driving up A1A. It felt no different then driving in my home town. We always have a car in WDW. Last trip I drove 200+ miles inside WDW. It never felt like I wasn't on vacation. I never once found myself thinking about my job back home, I was truely on vacation. To me, that's magical and it had nothing to do with the resort I was staying at on property.

 

[YoHo]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
***"What is the magic of being on property? Could you please explain that to me?"***

There was a thread a long time ago that had some great answers to this question, although the question was posed as the topic and not a point-counter-point game of one-upmanship.

I've stayed both on & off property. I might not be able to explain "the magic", but I know I experience it when I'm on property. The easy answer would be to say EE or EMH, but for me at least it's not that. We stayed at Disney's Vero resort a couple years ago.....great resort. But every time I left the resort, I was back in the real world. There was nothing vacation-like driving up A1A. It felt no different then driving in my home town. We always have a car in WDW. Last trip I drove 200+ miles inside WDW. It never felt like I wasn't on vacation. I never once found myself thinking about my job back home, I was truely on vacation. To me, that's magical and it had nothing to do with the resort I was staying at on property.

So that's a subjective opinion. When Disney World was built, that was a part, but only a part of what the Disney magic was right? and they didn't even have EE or Character Caravans back then.

There's a difference between what Disney established as the experience and what we see as the experience and historically, Disney has been dead set against altering their standard down to meet a minimum set by guests understand?

What you like is not relevent so much as what Disney builds is.

Here's a question for you, When the Moderates first opened, they were priced where the values are now. They offered a lower thrills, but still Disney experience. The themes, the settings all there. They didn't hurt Deluxe bookings

The Values don't provide that at all, yet clearly, Disney could have provided such an experience as the moderate without hurting the Deluxes, because that's exactly what they did do. So please, try to justify your claim of hurting the Deluxes by making better Values within the context of History.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Here's a question for you, When the Moderates first opened, they were priced where the values are now. They offered a lower thrills, but still Disney experience. The themes, the settings all there. They didn't hurt Deluxe bookings"***

Uh, YoHo..... what's the question ???

***"So that's a subjective opinion."***

Of course it is. Isn't everything we discuss here subjective opinion ?

***"When Disney World was built, that was a part, but only a part of what the Disney magic was right? and they didn't even have EE or Character Caravans back then."***

I'm not extactly sure what you're trying to say, but back then they didn't need EE or CC, they had no competion.

***"....They offered a lower thrills, but still Disney experience. The themes, the settings all there. They didn't hurt Deluxe bookings"***

You mean those same Mod's that many vocal members of your car ridership insist are not Disney standard - with the possible exception of Dixie ? I have no idea what affect the Mods had on the Deluxe, but that isn't the point. Look at what you said -they offer lower thrills. You've basically proved my point. People didn't abandon the Deluxes for a resort with lower thrills. That's why you can't build a Clone Poly Value resort and maintain an economical price.

 

[All Aboard]

Sorry Bret, I haven't read every word of this 15 page thread. Did you ask me a question?

 

[All Aboard]

Here's a question for you, When the Moderates first opened, they were priced where the values are now. They offered a lower thrills, but still Disney experience.

By this I assume you are giving a thumbs up to the moderates. I'm fairly sure that many of those arguing against the values carry the same argument against the mods - that they are, in fact, not Disney. That is why I really think when you boil it all down, battle through the miles of words and reasoning, we are arguing personal preference here.

 

[bretsyboo]

my question, which is posed to everybody who supports the pop century resort is simple.

Pop century fits into what disney is to you, what would a resort have to be before it does not fit into the what disney is for you?

What I mean by this is (assuming you agree pop century is the worst, if you'd like you can substitute another resort) something along the lines of:

If pop century didn't bother to have bright purple walls. or If they didn't have pop century covers or if they had one less fiberglass decoration, or a combo of things, or a sweeping generalization such as someone on the other board said it's not a disney resort unless it doesn't have magical transportation.

I'm trying to find out on an individual basis where the line is for everyone here, obviously for some like me the line has been crossed, for others like you it hasn't...so what would it take to cross the line?

 

[All Aboard]

Pop century fits into what disney is to you, what would a resort have to be before it does not fit into the what disney is for you?

This will stir the pot, I know, but it's an honest answer. Several examples... The Contemporary Garden Wings, The Golf Resort, the Townhouses, Fairway Villas and Bungalows, the Swan and the Dolphin. If they built the Disneyland Hotel on property at WDW, if any of the Hotel Plaza Blvd were built on property.

It would have to be:

1) Unthemed (I don't buy the "decoration" argument)
2) Not unique
3) Not possess elements that make it "fun"

 

[bretsyboo]

1) Unthemed (I don't buy the "decoration" argument)

then explain...

Now picture a 50's resort. That's right, just like in the 50's there would be giant fiberglass dogs, Yoyos that act as stare cases, bowling pin shaped pools, and silhouettes of dancers blocking windows. Just like in the 50's your bedspread would be the timeless look of every decade that had ever existed (which turns out to be appropriatly themed for every decade) and the walls would be bare as could be with the exception of a poster on the wall dedicated to the current decade you live in that reminds you "hey! I'm in the 50's!" It's so dangerously real I have seen older guests cry for the good old days.

unless you basically can't decorate without theming I really don't understand how this can be considered themed.

What shocks me is with the very few answers I've gotten just how many hotels I've been to that fall under Disney.

In my college town, we are the Bulldogs, and we have the Buldog Inn, which contains the "themeing" of I guess, the bulldogs. There are pennants everywhere and a giant sign on the roof that says bulldog inn and has a cutout bulldog. Who knows, it might even be fiberglass. Last year there was an art thing very much like the 75 years of mickey where people basically painted up and decorated "or themed" statues of bulldogs (that were, yes, giant bulldogs, well 3 or 4 times their size) and this place basically bought a lot of them and threw them all over the grounds. It's also only one story tall and has a "breakfast" in the morning meaning you can go to the "lobby" and get a bagel or a donut and some fresh coffee.

Tacky? yes. Ugly? oh yes. Themed? Apparently so, definitly moreso than Pop or all stars. Disney? Yes.

At least according to this boards soaring standards of what Disney is.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Yet, cristen, there are a couple thousand people every night facing that pricing decision and electing to choose the poodle skirt.

This thread still stinks of "you don't know what's good for you."

Hmmmmmmmmm. This should be a thread all by itself!!

Greg! What other choices do they have? Do you think that they really CHOOSE the poodle skirt because they find it intriguing? Because their friends and neighbors have told them what a WOW experience it is to gaze upon it? Because compared to the other choices at WDW that darn skirt beats the heck out of the place with the monorail running through the lobby or that ‘South Seas something or other’ type of resort?

No!! Of course not! They choose it because of price! THE ONLY KIND OF OPTION WITHIN THE PRICE!!

You make it sound as though they really have something to choose other than the poodle skirt! Tell me, is it that poodle skirt that draws you in?

No. I didn’t think so!

But it is your other statement that really grabbed me. And the instant I read it I knew my response. But only a couple of posts later, that motorcycling YoHo beat me to the punch with IDENTICAL thoughts!

The entire post is WONDERFUL, but these particular thoughts are well worth repeating:

Isn't that a very crass way of describing exactly what Walt did?

There was nobody out their besides Walt himself clamoring for something better then the basic carny style amusement park. Walt knew better, Walt built better and people flocked to Disneyland. I'd be curious to know if a day at Disney cost more in 55 then your typical amusement park? I'd lay favorable odds that it did.

To which I would add, “But not outrageously so!” I’ve always said that Disney was not cheap by any stretch of the imagination, it was only SLIGHTLY more expensive than their competition! And the “value” (or ‘what you got for it’) was light years ahead!!

And the good YoHo also wrote:

If you've only experienced the Deluxes at Market Value prices, how can you understand what you're really missing?

Bravo!! Well said!!

And lastly:

All we are saying is that what's good for you right now isn't Disney. It isn't what they, the Walt Disney Corporation SHOULD have given you, whether you like it or not.

I wish I would have said that!!

I guess it all boils down to liking what Ei$ner has created, in other words what is there now or…

---------- A different take on it… ----------

Instead of littering the property with ill-conceived, cheap, non-Disn… well INSTEAD…

You can take your pick from any of the following (only three please):
Persian
Asian
Venetian
Mediterranean
New Orleans
Caribbean
Wilderness OR African (not both, THEY ARE THE SAME!!)

One more pick (only one, they are all too alike!!)
Yacht Club
Beach Club
Boardwalk

Or make up one or two of your own…

NOW! Price it as it would be if they had followed the 1972 pricing…

$125.00 per night!!!

Pretty magical isn’t it? (Oh heck!! Even go up to $150.00! I’m feeling good tonight!!)

Come on! Bear with me. Only one more step!

Now build out the areas of each resort. Use the pricing structure that says: as you get further from “Prime Location” your price goes down (same concept as when the place opened). Those “away” or “less than great views” can even have slightly smaller rooms or no indoor corridors, etc. What they would not have is any difference in Theme, Story or SHOW!! In other words NO LESS A DISNEY EXPERIENCE!! Remember, we’re talking EXPERIENCE here. NOT Amenities! Now you can keep that method going until you reach that 79.00 mark!

WELL, WELL!! What have we done!? Melded the Mods (which should be priced as the economies), seamlessly, into the Disney Standard. It’s really no different than the three tiered pricing structure that they had in 1972. It just takes it one or two steps further. And we have that wonderful Disney equation. That same equation that Walt “got” way back in 1955, but hardly anyone pays attention to anymore

Price + The Disney Experience = Tremendous VALUE for the customer!!!

And for those bottom line type, one more equation (more in line with business):

Tremendous customer VALUE = Undying brand loyalty + LOTS OF MONEY!!!!

For many, many, many, many, years into the future!!



BTW Greg! Have a wonderful trip!

 

[YoHo]

Viking, you clealry haven't been keeping up, you should subscribe to the Element Newsletter.

It has been acknowledged that the Moderate are not inherintly unDisney and that even Walt himself had plans for such lowcost resorts. If you're going to tell me what "we" as a group think, at least try to keep on top of it. Oh sure, there's a fiesty Chicagoan who doesn't always like to agree, but even he's been willing to bend a little.


Here, let me explain it to you plain and simple.

There is absolutly nothing about the Value resorts that is intrinsically Disney in any way at all. NOTHING. Nothing about them matchs the standards set by this company back when they had standards. Not one thing.


CMs are not intrinsic to a hotel. Being on property, not intrinsic.

No, the intrinsic part is the theme, the staging, the set, the Story.

The Moderates from Port Orleans at the top to Caribbean beach have this intrinsic THEME.

There is no theme to the Values, there is no story and don't give me this isoteric it's telling the story of the twentith century bull doots, that's not the way Disney has ever told a story before. Disney Tells stories in a cinematic fashion. Storyboards, scripts. That isn't what the Values do AT ALL.
They are the shyster used carsalesmen of storytelling.

The difference at least in theory between the moderates and the Deluxes is simple,
Location, amenities, cost.
Those are not intrinsic values either.


This whole it's a subjective you don't like it I do, so you can't argue it is offensive to the imagineers who put so much effort into the original resorts. I can objectivly know how much work and what type of work was put into a resort and I cna objectivly know whether that work effort and type of work conform with the Disney standard for creating and therefore, I can know if something is Disney or not. OBJECTIVLY.

What I can't do is question whether say Greg really enjoys the All Stars. Clearly he does and that's fine, I have no problem with it, but that doesn't make the Allstars a Disney caliber resort.

The act of creation is not debatable and I dare any one of you to find me evidence that the attention to initial creation inherint in the Deluxes and mods is there for the values. If you can provide me evidence of the manhours of design and storyboarding and planning, I'll back down. We know what went into the Deluxes, because Disney is not embarassed to tell us. I'd like to see if the same attention to detail is their for the lower priced fare.



Or perhaps the unwashed masses don't deserve Disney quality?

If only we could limit the entrance to movies to only those of means and charge them an arm and a leg, then maybe we'd get somthing that wasn't a festering pile from Disney Animation. The masses can get Sleeping Beauty XV: Aurora gets a hangnail.

 

[bretsyboo]

Sleeping Beauty XV: Aurora gets a hangnail.

keep up yoho, that's sleeping beauty XIV. Sleeping Beauty XV is Aurora pricks her finger again, and you really should check out Sleeping Beauty XXX, it has cameos from all of the princes.