polygamist ranch in TX -- children taken -- your thoughts?

[lustergirl]

I have read some very interesting posts here and have looked up "lost boys" on google. This is all very mind shattering. I believe something should of been done about the ranch in Texas but I also believe now that the state has taken all of these children into custody they don't know what to do with them. I don't believe this plan was very well thought out to begin with. Now the state of Texas has all of these children in their custoday and it seems if they are baffled greatly.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I'm not quite willing to say that they are murders ,but I think it's possible as do many of the escapees..
There are many who just dissapear..Are they all going to other compounds? Are they kicked out? This group does claim blood atonement. Honestly, I don't put murder past them.

wow, I had NO idea it was this deep and I bet very few people do.

 

[barkley]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if these women were married or even divorced the state would try to collect funds from the husband...By stating they don't know who the father is they don't count the fathers income etc at all

any woman of a child making application for public assistance must provide birth records for that child and make a paternity declaration. participation and co-operation in establishing paternity is a requirement to receive benefits. participation and co-operation in pursing and establishing child support is also a requirement.

i can't speak to how workers in states that have polygamist cults are trained to handle their caseloads but i can tell you how we handled the ones that practiced similar relationships/welfare fraud in our county-

mommy came in and applied for the most recent kid-we requested the bc, if they claimed no bc because of their religous practices (always claimed it was home birth and no doctors because they did'nt trust them) we required that they bring their bible record (our group recorded births in the bible), we compared the new copy to the old to see if it was consistent to the families existing copy (and not a new one created for this kid)-and affadavits from whomever was present when the child was born. we had them do the paternity paperwork-and it was incredibly detailed, if you don't know who your baby's daddy is you fill one out on every man you had sex with around conception time and give very intimate details of who, when, where, duration, identifying body characteristics ....then all those men were called in for paternity testing (and the men were more often the best source in these groups to get info from-they did'nt want to get tagged for a kid not their own). the other thing we had going for us was we kept all the cases within one unit-and with just a couple of workers covering them so they were intimatly aware of the family dynamics. we had family trees we had created using information in each of the cases so we could see if someone had multiple kids by the same man so we could pull him in for a paternity test. had index cards with info on who was at a given address so if someone reported that their 'neice' came to live with them we could see if in actuality their 'neice' was their live in so's daughter. it took hellacious organization and cooperation between the caseworkers but it prevented allot of fraud from being successfully perpatrated.

in reality-the bulk of fraudulent polygamist (religious based) welfare cases are done by virute of having dad live outside the home for legal purposes (dad spends one nite with each family but claims another legal residence-just a schill house used by the men for this purpose). the dads are reported to the agency BUT these groups are very skilled at ensuring that individual members appear to have no income or assetts. the companies that are owned are owned by their churches-and as such they can structure the situation such that it appears a father has no resources to attach to. in some states the courts are proactive and take action against fathers who fail to support their children, but the usual legal avenues-property and wage liens, revocation of professional licenses does'nt carry much of an impact when a man has none of his property in his own name, no wages ('the church provides for my needs' ) and likely no profession that carries a licensing. courts don't want dead beat daddies to sit and rot in jail-the kids get no money and the taxpayers are now paying for the mommies, the kids AND the daddies.

the last issue is, even if someone is forthcoming and honest about their polygamist husband, and even if he's working a real job-the amount of child support that would be captured from an average man (in the professions these practicers commonly work in) once divided among all the moms and the kids would have little or no impact on their still receiving benefits. ya gotta figure if someones got 20 kids with 10 different wives, even if their gross pay is say $5000 per month-IF the courts were to order 50% of their income to go to those kids (and most don't order that high an amount) it's only $250 per household per month (if each wife had 2 kids). thats less than the minimum basic adequate standard of care that welfare uses to issue grants, so the kids would still be eligible.

it's abuse of the system-but there is a reason your rarely if ever hear of a polygamist being successfully prosecuted for welfare fraud-they know the system inside out and operate withing the letter of the poorly written laws

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

He's MURDERING people out there?????

I heard one news anchor say they think that Sarah who made the call has disappeared.......and don't know where or what happened to her. ;-(

 

[JennyMominRI]

any woman of a child making application for public assistance must provide birth records for that child and make a paternity declaration. participation and co-operation in establishing paternity is a requirement to receive benefits. participation and co-operation in pursing and establishing child support is also a requirement.

i can't speak to how workers in states that have polygamist cults are trained to handle their caseloads but i can tell you how we handled the ones that practiced similar relationships/welfare fraud in our county-

mommy came in and applied for the most recent kid-we requested the bc, if they claimed no bc because of their religous practices (always claimed it was home birth and no doctors because they did'nt trust them) we required that they bring their bible record (our group recorded births in the bible), we compared the new copy to the old to see if it was consistent to the families existing copy (and not a new one created for this kid)-and affadavits from whomever was present when the child was born. we had them do the paternity paperwork-and it was incredibly detailed, if you don't know who your baby's daddy is you fill one out on every man you had sex with around conception time and give very intimate details of who, when, where, duration, identifying body characteristics ....then all those men were called in for paternity testing (and the men were more often the best source in these groups to get info from-they did'nt want to get tagged for a kid not their own). the other thing we had going for us was we kept all the cases within one unit-and with just a couple of workers covering them so they were intimatly aware of the family dynamics. we had family trees we had created using information in each of the cases so we could see if someone had multiple kids by the same man so we could pull him in for a paternity test. had index cards with info on who was at a given address so if someone reported that their 'neice' came to live with them we could see if in actuality their 'neice' was their live in so's daughter. it took hellacious organization and cooperation between the caseworkers but it prevented allot of fraud from being successfully perpatrated.

in reality-the bulk of fraudulent polygamist (religious based) welfare cases are done by virute of having dad live outside the home for legal purposes (dad spends one nite with each family but claims another legal residence-just a schill house used by the men for this purpose). the dads are reported to the agency BUT these groups are very skilled at ensuring that individual members appear to have no income or assetts. the companies that are owned are owned by their churches-and as such they can structure the situation such that it appears a father has no resources to attach to. in some states the courts are proactive and take action against fathers who fail to support their children, but the usual legal avenues-property and wage liens, revocation of professional licenses does'nt carry much of an impact when a man has none of his property in his own name, no wages ('the church provides for my needs' ) and likely no profession that carries a licensing. courts don't want dead beat daddies to sit and rot in jail-the kids get no money and the taxpayers are now paying for the mommies, the kids AND the daddies.

the last issue is, even if someone is forthcoming and honest about their polygamist husband, and even if he's working a real job-the amount of child support that would be captured from an average man (in the professions these practicers commonly work in) once divided among all the moms and the kids would have little or no impact on their still receiving benefits. ya gotta figure if someones got 20 kids with 10 different wives, even if their gross pay is say $5000 per month-IF the courts were to order 50% of their income to go to those kids (and most don't order that high an amount) it's only $250 per household per month (if each wife had 2 kids). thats less than the minimum basic adequate standard of care that welfare uses to issue grants, so the kids would still be eligible.

it's abuse of the system-but there is a reason your rarely if ever hear of a polygamist being successfully prosecuted for welfare fraud-they know the system inside out and operate withing the letter of the poorly written laws

Thanks for all of the info...I hadn't thought about the fact that none of these men own anything..It all belongs to the compound

 

[JennyMominRI]

I heard one news anchor say they think that Sarah who made the call has disappeared.......and don't know where or what happened to her. ;-(

I know that the elders of the community say there was no Sarah but kids who have been questioned said there were several Sarahs on the compound



Here is a crime library article about a closely related Fundamentists compound and the murder cases there

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/

 

[mom2rb]

I have read some very interesting posts here and have looked up "lost boys" on google. This is all very mind shattering. I believe something should of been done about the ranch in Texas but I also believe now that the state has taken all of these children into custody they don't know what to do with them. I don't believe this plan was very well thought out to begin with. Now the state of Texas has all of these children in their custoday and it seems if they are baffled greatly.

I don't think Texas knew how many children where there. If you plan on taking 150 kids but you end up with 450 you are going to have a logistical nightmare.

 

[hildasmuriel]

OT but I wondered....
In the UK it is a legal requirement that a baby's birth must be registered at the Registrar's Office within 6 weeks of birth. That is when a birth certificate is given. Is registering a birth optional in the US?

 

[lustergirl]

I don't think Texas knew how many children where there. If you plan on taking 150 kids but you end up with 450 you are going to have a logistical nightmare.

My case in point. I don't think they realized there were so many children to be taken.

 

[barkley]

Thanks for all of the info...I hadn't thought about the fact that none of these men own anything..It all belongs to the compound

and if the compound is realy smart (and most are) they have the assetts secured in trusts so that no individual person's actions can result in endangering it or requiring it to be accessed before public funds (honestly-it happens all the time accross the united states with individual people's money, only it's referred to as 'assett and income structuring'-and is widely used in the government sponsored medical aide programs).


btw-on the 'sarah' caller, initial reports said she managed to borrow a cell phone from someone and make the call. i can't imagine someone inside the compound would have permitted this, so it makes me wonder if there is'nt an outsider who somehow has access and should be coming forward with information. i don't know how texas cps phones work, but in california ours had caller id long before it was the norm on home phones-so we could write down a callers number even if they did'nt want to provide it (now if they had caller id blocked it's another matter but if it was'nt, and the number was written down-could'nt they subpeona those cell records and find out who owns that phone to interview them?).

 

[barkley]

OT but I wondered....
In the UK it is a legal requirement that a baby's birth must be registered at the Registrar's Office within 6 weeks of birth. That is when a birth certificate is given. Is registering a birth optional in the US?

technically all births must be recorded, but due to old laws on the books in most states until a child hits the age where some issue comes up that requires a birth record be presented it's nothing that's tracked. since these people likely never filed taxes there was never a need to get a social security card (which would have required birth records), they are homeschooled (so no school requiring birth records). if they are on public assistance REALY old laws permit the use of a family bible record or an informal birth certificate that only carries a requirement that someone who witnessed the birth make a written statement of having done so (under penalty of purjury). i don't know that these kids use what we'de call a traditional doctor-where their practice would call for information to id the kids, some groups pay to educate one of their own to provide sans governement oversight. i don't know if it's common for the women to drive-but individual states require varying levels of personal identification to get a license, so they could get lic. in the state that's most liberal and then (as i did) just go to the state they live in, claim to be a new resident and get the lic. transferred (all without ever showing that higher requiring state any id other than my previous state's drivers lic).

 

[DemonLlama]

And I don't even know what to think of this news story that aired on the local news here today:

Woman May Be Involved in Polygamy Ranch Call

Woman May Be Involved In Raid Of Polygamist Sect
Woman Arrested On False Reporting Charges

POSTED: 8:11 pm MDT April 17, 2008
UPDATED: 8:26 am MDT April 18, 2008

DENVER -- A Colorado Springs woman was arrested on charges of false reporting to authorities and is being investigated in connection with her alleged involvement in the call that tipped authorities off to possible abuse at a Texas polygamist compound.

Police said they arrested 33-year-old Rozita Swinton at her home on Wednesday.

The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs Wednesday as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas. They left and have not filed any charges on Swinton, said Colorado Springs police spokesman Lt. Skip Arms.

Arms said he could not discuss any aspects of the Texas case. The affidavit for the Colorado Springs case has been sealed so details cannot be released, he said.

Call7 Investigators reported this is not be the first time Swinton has been arrested on charges of making false reports to authorities. The Colorado Springs charge against Swinton was made in connection to calls received by police in February indicating she was 13 years old and trapped in a basement.

Local police said Swinton had been under investigation for some time on that accusation, but police made an immediate arrest after the Texas Rangers became involved, according to ABC News.

The raid on the Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, Texas on April 14 was prompted by a series of phone calls in late March from a 16-year-old girl. The girl, who called herself Sarah, claimed she had been physically and sexually assaulted and forced to become the wife of a 50-year-old man. She said she was pregnant and lived in the Texas compound owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

Police have not yet been able to locate the girl, despite having removed 416 children from the ranch. However, authorities believe the girl does exist.

Some of the FLDS women told CNN that they believe the calls were a hoax.

Former FLDS member Flora Jessop, who runs a hot line for teenage girls trying to escape the sect, told authorities that she was getting calls from a teen named Sarah, reportedly the same girl who called a domestic violence shelter in Eldorado. Jessop told ABC News that she -- at the direction of Texas Rangers -- began recording those calls in the past two weeks and that the Rangers were able to trace them to Colorado Springs.

Police have not said if they believe Swinton made the phone call that prompted the raid or if she was a copycat caller.

Swinton was released from the El Paso County Criminal Justice Center after posting $20,000 bond.

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

what do you think of this?


NEW YORK (CNN) -- The U.S. government paid more than $1.7 million in defense contracts over the last decade to companies owned by leaders of Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect -- with tens of thousands allegedly winding its way back to Jeffs and his church.

The Pentagon had contracts with three companies with ties to Warren Jeffs' polygamous sect.

In fact, some of the deals were made after Jeffs was named to the FBI's "Most-Wanted List" and remained in place while he was on the run.

CNN has learned that between 1998 and 2007 the United States Air Force and Defense Logistics Agency purchased more than $1.7 million worth of airplane parts from three companies owned by members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which practices polygamy.

Those companies are Utah Tool and Die, Western Precision and NewEra Manufacturing. Today, the companies all operate under the name NewEra Manufacturing, a company based in Las Vegas, Nevada, that says it supplies precision components "for the aerospace, military, medical, recreational and other commercial entities."

"It was my understanding that Western Precision was paying roughly $50,000 a week into the coffers of the church," former sect member Richard Holm told CNN. "It would have been close to $200,000 a month."

Holm said he helped build Western Precision.

A court affidavit signed by a man whose father was the president of Western Precision makes similar allegations.

"During 2003, the amount being sent to the storehouse and the FLDS was around $100,000 per month," said John Nielsen in the October 26, 2005, affidavit. "I have personal knowledge that checks sent to the FLDS Church/Warren Jeffs by [Western Precision] are payable to the FLDS Church and/or Warren Jeffs."

Private investigator Sam Brower, who monitors the sect, said money earned through business dealings with the U.S. government was used to build Jeffs' compounds around the country, including the one recently raided in El Dorado, Texas.

More than 400 children, including teenage girls, were removed from that ranch amid claims of child abuse and forced marriage and motherhood. Video Watch a mom plead: 'We need our children' »

Brower says dozens of companies tied to FLDS are working on contracts with federal or local governments. The Pentagon would only confirm it had contracts with three.

CNN contacted NewEra Manufacturing for this story. "No comment," said a man at the other end of the phone before hanging up.

The companies have not been charged with wrongdoing.

Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell emphasized that point.

"The Department of Defense awards contracts on the basis of who can most effectively meet our requirements for supplies or services at the most reasonable cost to the taxpayer," he told CNN.

"We do not consider religious affiliation or marital status when selecting vendors, but illegal activity is certainly cause for termination of a contract and perhaps even debarment, which could prevent a contractor from doing business with department ever again."


He added, "However, DoD is not aware of any criminal allegations against anyone managing the companies in question."

Bob Maginnis, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who now works with a contractor for the Pentagon, said the department does background checks before signing contracts.

"The DoD is obviously abiding by the law, and if we want them to look deeper and discriminate on religious or other activities we need to tell them."

But he added, "If there was a direct line between Jeffs and this company, and his name was associated with a contract, then that should have come to attention of those that were bidding contract."

It's unclear if Jeffs' name was on any contract, but other senior members of his church were managing the companies.

What might taxpayers think of it all?

"They're just going to shake their head and say here's another example of our tax money going down the drain to support this polygamist in Texas who abuses children and women," Maginnis said. "They'll be appalled and rightly so."


Jeffs is currently serving time in Utah after his 2007 conviction for being an accomplice to rape -- charges related to a marriage he performed in 2001. He also faces trial in Arizona on eight charges of sexual conduct with a minor, incest and conspiracy. See a timeline of Jeffs' life »

The Mormon Church, which gave up plural marriage more than a century ago, has no ties to Jeffs' group.

 

[Grumpy's Gal]

CNN BREAKING NEWS -- State keeping the kids for now for DNA testing

 

[EMom]

My case in point. I don't think they realized there were so many children to be taken.

The state only thought the compound held a little over 200 people in total. That's people, not children. This is what the group/cult had reported to the proper authorities. Also, they kept those kids hidden. Apparently, it was rare to see them outside, except in limited numbers. Planes that flew over regularly had no idea there were that many children there, because they reported rarely even seeing children on the grounds. The pasty little things were vastly underestimated in number because they were phantom children.

The state went out there expecting to find slightly over 100 kids, maximum. They found well over 400. It sounds like one of those 60s movies where when the van door opens at the beach and the teens start to pile out, and instead of 6-8 exiting, it's more like 30-40. The adults numbers were underestimated as well, because the group had misled the authorities about the truth of that matter. But it's the sheer number of children that was sooooo off. Why would the group lie about the presence of an extra 300+ kids?

I am thrilled that Texas, unlike so many other states in the past, is finally taking steps to protect the children from the sick and twisted teachings and practices of this group that dares to associate what they do with "religion."

You can put a girl in a white dress, but that doesn't make her a virgin. And you can call your disgusting acts and brainwashing "religion," but God still sees it for the perversion it is and most mortals won't be fooled either.

 

[sarahbelleca]

I highly recommend the book "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop. It came out about 6 months ago, biography, about her unhappy life, and eventual escape, from the FLDS. Very well-written, she broke the mold of these women in a lot of ways (became educated). Right after the book came out, I read it and have recommended it several times since then. Her husband is the leader of the group where the children were taken from.

 

[DISUNC]

The whole situation is so Bizarre I dunno what to think?

 

[Piglets Mommy]

This is all so sad.

 

[PaulaSB12]

This sort of cult needs to be destroyed. How many more lives will be ruined by this sort of excuse for child abuse?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger

What next killing all baby boys just so you can have a nice 12 year old wife to yourself?