Political: Bushisms (Including a brand new one)

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Yoo hoo....WDWHound, one more time. THESE MEN DID NOT SERVE WITH KERRY. No matter how many times a lie is repeated, it still stinks. And in case it escaped you, we are taking McCains's word for this. Are you doubting the word of the chairman of the committeee to reelect Bush?

YooHoo, did you read your own post? "Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, head of the Swift Boat group, said they respected McCain's "right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Sen. McCain did not."

 

[palmtreegirl]

Originally posted by WDWHound
YooHoo, did you read your own post? "Retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, head of the Swift Boat group, said they respected McCain's "right to express his opinion and we hope he extends to us the same respect and courtesy, particularly since we served with John Kerry, we knew him well and Sen. McCain did not."

Please go back and read the full article faithinkarma posted.

From said artcile-

"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad. Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.

"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

The men did not serve under Kerry on his swift boat. They were in other boats nearby. I for one am more inclined to believe the accounts of the men who served under Kerry on his boat. Personally I think it's rather disgusting and even dishonarable to question the authenticity of any soliders medals who served in Vietnam or any other war for that matter.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by WDWHound
Funny, you trust everthing Micheal Moore has to say, but when men who served with Kerry offer their opinion of Kerry and his service, you automatically call it crap. What makes these decorated war verterans opinion so easily discardible? Their opinions are at least reliable as Micheal Moore's views or the views of all of those trying to to claim Bush was AWOL. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot. They are against Bush, so you have to automatically discredit them.

No what's funny is:

1 - THESE MEN DID NOT SERVE WITH KERRY, yet gullible people around the country just lap this stuff up without bothering to read the fine print.

and

2 - Please point to where I ever said I "trust everything Michael Moore has to say" I'll wait right here while you back that statement up (but I won't hold my breath).

and

3 - John Kerry is also a "decorated war veteran"....as are Max Cleeland, John McCain, and the people that actually DID serve with Kerry who call him a hero. But because they don't agree with this smear job, you don't mind ignoring their opinions too much, huh ?

 

[peachgirl]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
Just as Kerry won't condemn any of the negative ads or comments or insults that are said about Bush??

So, is it your opinion that Bush is no better than Kerry?

Bush has nothing to run on but fear. His supporters can't come up with anything to counter Kerry's campaign so they resort to this sort of low life trash.

Desperate and pathetic...but at least it shows just how worried they all are.


Yeah...I wonder when Shrub's vietnam buddies are gonna come out in support of him ? Oh...wait....what's right....


I think people ought to be ashamed for denigrating Kerry's service and contribution to this country at a time when a lot of people were doing everything within their power (or their daddy's) to get out of serving.

No matter what you think of him as a politician, he served his country and he deserves a thank you and some respect as does anyone who's serving now.

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by wvrevy
No what's funny is:

1 - THESE MEN DID NOT SERVE WITH KERRY, yet gullible people around the country just lap this stuff up without bothering to read the fine print.

They served in the same group, but not on the same baot. The fact that they were there with him and knew him makes their opinions worth considering.

[
2 - Please point to where I ever said I "trust everything Michael Moore has to say" I'll wait right here while you back that statement up (but I won't hold my breath).

I have read your threads on Moores films. You seem to be much more willing to trust his opinion than the opinions of these vets. I have never heard you accusing Moore of "crap". I'm not saying that you always agree with him, only that you are more willing to listen to him. However, I agree that I worded this poorly. I did indeed say that you "trust everthing" he says. That did not communicate my meaning accurately and I appologize.

[
3 - John Kerry is also a "decorated war veteran"....as are Max Cleeland, John McCain, and the people that actually DID serve with Kerry who call him a hero. But because they don't agree with this smear job, you don't mind ignoring their opinions too much, huh ?

Show me one point where I said I was ignoring their opinions. Show me one point where I said I agreed with either side. I also will not hold my breath, becuase, unlike you, I never called what anyone said "crap" or indicated my opinion in anyway on this thread. I never said anything about my opinoiins of this, only about how you and others reacted to the views of the swift boat captains who oppose Kerry.

My point, which I am not suprised you missed, is that both sides are worth listening to. Both sides were there. Both sides should be considered. My opinion of Kerry is that he served his country bravely. It is also possible that he messed up while he was over there, but I don't think all the facts are in. Until then, I reserve judgement, but I will not ignore the words of those who were present and who interacted with Kerry at the time in question just because they weren't with him on the same boat. Sure, the men in the boat may have known him better, but Kerry interacted with other men in the other boats as well. Their views should at least be considered.

Unlike you, I am will to consider each side of this. All the men in this discussion have earned the right to be heard and taken seriously. Sadly, you seem don't seem to be able to give the men who made the video that chance.

 

[cats7494]

Originally posted by palmtreegirl
Personally I think it's rather disgusting and even dishonarable to question the authenticity of any soliders medals who served in Vietnam or any other war for that matter.

Originally posted by peachgirll
No matter what you think of him as a politician, he served his country and he deserves a thank you and some respect as does anyone who's serving now.

I totally agree with both of these statements!

 

[wvrevy]

WDWHound

Rater than quote your whole post, let me just address each point this way:

1 - That is a critical difference. The men supporting Kerry were "in the same boat" with him, so I would think that their opinions would carry much greater weight. Yes, their opinions are worth considering, as are there motives for putting out this smear campaign (which, I understand, the White House is now beginning to condemn, if only half-heartedly).

2 - I think Moore is a brilliant filmmaker and an even more brilliant self-publicist. Yes, I believe firmly that what he says is worth examining. That said, I have always made it a point to say that Moore's conclusions are going to be biased by his own political beliefs, and that they should be examined with that in mind. Seriously, I think I've posted that on every Moore thread I've said anything at all on. (Can't swear to that, but I know it's been quite a few).

3 - Granted, you didn't say "ignore their opinions". But to give theirs equal weight with people that actually did serve with Kerry just doesn't make any sense. Did they know him ? Possibly, but I have no idea how well, and neither does anyone else. But the men actually serving with him DID know him, and that's undeniable. What is also undeniable is that those men support him.

 

[beattyfamily]

These men may not have served 'under' Kerry but most of them served 'with' Kerry in the same unit. Each swift boat only holds 6 men so these men were in other boats nearby (and in the SAME unit as Kerry). They knew Kerry and saw things going on. It's like when my DH was in the Army, he knew the men in his unit, some better than others. He ate with them and slept with them even if they weren't on the same truck with him or assigned the same job as him, he still served with them!

At least 6 of the former soldiers in the video were also in a photo with Kerry that Kerry was using to promote his campaign until 11 of th 19 in the photo sent him a letter and asked him to stop (of the remaining eight officers in the photo, two are deceased and four don't want any involvement. Only two of the 20 are believed to support Kerry). It's the same photo at the beginning of the video.

Here's the picture along with some more comments from soldiers in Kerry's unit.

I think they have a right to their opinion of Kerry and they have a right to speak out since Kerry chose to use his war history in his campaign. They have a right to be angry that he'd use that photo after coming home and speaking out against the war and accused those same soldiers of "atrocities".

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Hey, I have a question for the unwashed masses out there.

You know how we look back now and say that Viet Nam was a mistake. I don't mean me, I mean that is the general majority opinion of Viet Nam now, right? Or am I wrong, are there any historians out there that think that Viet Nam was the right thing to do?

It is pretty much agreed upon in hindsight, that it was a mess right!

So why are we criticizing Kerry for that now again? Are the people that are criticizing Kerry pro-Viet Nam?

 

[WDWHound]

wvrevy - I beleive the men on the boat who said he acted bravely. That doesn't automatically discount all of what the other men have to say.I get the impression you think its an either or situation, but its not. In war times, very honerable men could have very different opinoins based on their different experiences. These 2 groups may have seen different sides of the same man.

My greatest concern is the doctor who claims that some of Kerry's wounds were very minor and not worthy of a purple heart. I am not saying this happened, but such a serious accusation should at least be investigated. If the doctor is lying, he deserves to be brought up on slander charges. If not, well that would be something more about Kerry's Vietnam experience worth considering.

BTW: I did not miss the fact that some very wealthy conservatives are helping this effort along in jopes off furthering their agenda. That needs to be taken into account, but does not automatically discredit what these men have to say.

 

[goin2disneyagain]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
Vote Bush/Cheney '04: We're Gooder!

I have been known to misspeak on almost a daily basis so I can relate to Bush. It's not like it was intentional. No one is perfect.

 

[MosMom]

CNN is reporting it differently...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/bush.ap/index.html

Bush misspoke as he delivered a speech at the signing ceremony for a $417 billion defense spending bill.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we," Bush said.

"They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

No one in Bush's audience of military brass or Pentagon chiefs reacted.

The president was working his way toward a larger point. "We must never stop thinking about how best to defend our country. We must always be forward-thinking," he said.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush's misstatement "just shows even the most straightforward and plain-spoken people misspeak."

"But the American people know this president speaks with clarity and conviction, and the terrorists know by his actions he means it," McClellan said.

 

[peachgirl]

Perhaps people should take a look at the source for all these "facts"...



http://www.worldnetdaily.com/




Isn't it odd that the only article listed on that wacko site that didn't originate there is the one about McCain's condemnation of the ad and those who made it.

When you consider the source, the stories aren't worth commenting on.

I would hate to be so desperate to win an election that I'd be willing to trash those who chose to serve their country. It's pathetic.

You know, just because your guy got out of serving doesn't mean you have to trash Kerry's decision to serve. It doesn't make your guy look any better, it makes him look worse.

And before you come down with your righteous indignation about Bush's so called service, it's a simple fact that the reserves did not serve the purpose during Vietnam that they do now. Anyone who wanted to get out of being drafted did their best to get into the reserves. It wasn't an act of patriotism, it was a way not to go to Vietnam.

Unfortunately, so many wanted in the reserves that only a chosen few...those with power and money...usually got in. Even then, Bush couldn't manage to do his time.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by peachgirl
I would hate to be so desperate to win an election that I'd be willing to trash those who chose to serve their country. It's pathetic.

You know, just because your guy got out of serving doesn't mean you have to trash Kerry's decision to serve.

It's only fellow soldier's from Kerry's unit doing the trashing...it's their ad not paid for by Bush. It's their opinion of the man, of which they are allowed to voice.

Who trashed Kerry's 'decision' to serve'?

FYI... I guess Kerry isn't big on freedom of speech, his campaign has sent a letter to TV stations today telling them not to run the ads.

 

[WDWHound]

Originally posted by peachgirl
Perhaps people should take a look at the source for all these "facts"...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/

I've never been there. My source is the swiftboat verterans for truth site. How does worldnetdaily enter into this?

And why bring up Bush and the national guard again? What does that have to do with whether the swiftboat vets for truth are accurate in their views of Kerry?

 

[peachgirl]

I just listened to them talking about this on MSNBC. They had the man whose life Kerry saved and one of those who was involved in this video.

The veteran who Kerry saved made an excellent point. If Kerry is such a liar and didn't do what he says...why have they waited 35 years to say so????

He's been in politics for a very long time. Why wait till now? Sounds to me like someone wants their 15 minutes of fame.

Who trashed Kerry's 'decision' to serve'?

Ok....trashed his service...better? And I was referring to people on this thread like you and those who made this video...not Bush. Who, if he had any principles at all would denounce this trash story just as McCain has. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by peachgirl
Ok....trashed his service...better? And I was referring to people on this thread like you and those who made this video...not Bush. Who, if he had any principles at all would denounce this trash story just as McCain has. I'm not holding my breath though.

So you were referring to those soldiers who served with Kerry in the same unit and myself as desperate and pathetic. Isn't that special.

Yeah, and Kerry should have had enough principles to denounce the Michael Moore movie or maybe the Democratic fund raiser when Whoopi (and others) made her comments?? Good thing I didn't hold my breath or I'd be dead!

Both sides are doing the exact same things. No side is better, IMHO. I believe in the history of our country this has been the most nasty, vile and hate-filled campaign thus far and it's coming from both sides of the fence.

I only posted the video because I'm sick of the OP's constant posts attacking and insulting our President. He "just had to share" and so I returned the favor. Simple as that.

 

[peachgirl]

So you were referring to those soldiers who served with Kerry in the same unit and myself as desperate and pathetic.

Nope, just the behavior.

And, I see a difference between Hollywood stars using foul language or MM's partisan video and intentionally trashing a decorated war veteran and hero.

 

[beattyfamily]

Originally posted by peachgirl
Nope, just the behavior.

And, I see a difference between Hollywood stars using foul language or MM's partisan video and intentionally trashing a decorated war veteran and hero.

Oh that's makes a difference.

I'd love to know what behavior you've seen of mine that makes you think my 'behavior' is any more 'desperate' and 'pathetic' than those who constantly post negative stuff on our President on a daily basis and then also name call and insult those who disagree?

I have never insulted or attacked anyone. Can't say that for some others who support 'your guy'.

I see nothing wrong with posting the ad here. I see nothing wrong with people hearing the opinion of these soldiers who were in Kerry's unit. I don't see it as 'desperate' and 'pathetic' but I do think some other "Political" posts are!

Have fun! I'm off to do better things, like eat dinner with my family. Carry on.

 

[Loftus]

Originally posted by WDWHound
And why bring up Bush and the national guard again? What does that have to do with whether the swiftboat vets for truth are accurate in their views of Kerry?

And what do the views of the Swiftboat vets have to do with President Bush mis-speaking?