Points Rented, now I am stuck with the bill!

[Brian Noble]

This would be good, can it be done?

Sure, but there is no way Disney will put it in place.

Room charge is one of the most clever things since sliced bread---clever in the amount of money it makes for the Mouse. With room charge, you know wherever you go, whatever you do, you can just "put it on the room." It's like a credit card, only better, because in many instances you don't even need to sign anything---you just get what you want.

Disney does this for the same reason that casinos use chips rather than real money---it doesn't seem like you are really spending (gambling) money, so you are liable to spend (gamble) more.

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

There's no way to do that. Besides, while you're checking in, you're asked if you want to put a credit card on your room keys. So...if the renter doesn't know at the time that it's possible, they soon will.

This is another reason that I have never rented my points. We let 50 points expire last year for this very reason.

If you find yourself in that situation again, please let me know! I would be happy to take those points off of your hands. And if I don't pay my bill at the end you live close enough to come demand your money in person.

I am too much of a chicken to rent out my points. Not that I have any points left over. I am already trying to figure out how many points we are short for 2010.

OP - I am really sorry you are having to deal with this. The whole situation is just really unfortunate. I would never have anticipated something like that happening, let alone know what sort of precautions to take to prevent it.

 

[kimberh]

So is the person who rented the points out also liable for the renters behaviour in the parks and other parts of the resort outside of the rented room, or does liability stop at the door to the room with the exception of any spending they may want to incur?

Nope, once a person's name is placed on that reservation, they can call the shots at check in as far as placing a credit card on the account. Owner will always be responsible.



Definitely could be liable. The DVC owner may be held responsible for damages, and Disney is a mighty force to take on in the U.S. Court system, trust me. For example, if someone rented to an individual who ran around spray painting the resort and then murdered someone, well I can see lots of civil lawsuits resulting. There would be Disney, the family of the deceased, any people injured in the melee...they would claim the owner rented to a criminal and invited in someone who caused damages. All of this would be subject to prosecution, state laws, etc. But Disney is a force to be reckoned with if they decide to take you to court...

So which one is right? Anyone really know? I do rent from time to time. I have never had a problem. I have rented to wonderful families. I would hate to scare all DVC owners off from renting because of this. How rare does this really happen. This is the second time I have ever heard of it, and once was the BIL that has been mentioned in this Thread. I sure don't supply Park tickets or the Dining Plan, that is Disney. So who is responsible for that? I do charge more than $10.00, some people need to raise their price some and not deal with those nickel and diming every penny.
Op, I am so sorry this has happened. If it did happen to me, I can assure you that I would deal with it through the proper legal channels. I have a ton of skymiles, so flying to where they live and pressing charges would not be a problem for me. I hope you had a contract.
Good Luck, please keep us informed.

 

[ChelleinNC]

It is rare. This is the second situation like this I've seen. The other one was actually caused by the DVC front desk people messing up. An owner's relative (BIL, I think) was the guest and the front desk simply forgot to bill the credit card he presented at checkin. It was later caught and the charges were applied against the owner's account without any notice to him. He tried to make a ressie and discovered the problem. Fortunately, that problem was easily resolved.

I had a similar situation this year (no renter, just us). We had our DVC trip in June at SSR, in NOVEMBER I recieved a letter/bill from DVC Member Accounting for my bill in June. Apparently, they never charged my credit card then (for whatever reason; there was plenty of credit, good standing.....) and were billing me in November Of course the bill had to be paid before I checked in for our next trip, on November 30th.

I never saw the charge come thru over the summer, but we also moved some cards around and cancelled some (after the trip). I told DVC that I couldn't be sure I wasn't being billed twice, but I also couldn't say that it had been paid. The charges on the bill were definitely ours, but there was also a member number on there that wasn't ours. DVC Member Acct didn't care. I sent a letter of concern along with the payment and never heard a word back. What I really don't understand is that I was at the desk at checkout time (we had issues and the manager kindly allowed us to stay in the room for an extra hour) I was there, talking to them, if there was a problem running the card, why didn't they say something then? or call me a few days/week later? FIVE months later still really bugs be

OP, I hope your renter pays you ASAP. I just mentioned my story because sometimes DVC just doesn't seem to bill things right away for whatever reason and I wanted you to know that your renter may not have been trying to do any harm to you. Unfortunately with the current economic climate, your renters' personal situation may have changed since they took their vacation and they may no longer have the money to pay you back.

 

[permavac]

Naw...there is no criminal fraud here -- you'd have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the renter knew the card was no good when they presented it. That ain't happening...

Regardless of the above, if it were me, I would still go the "threat" route. You will either get the money or your won't - since these people don't seem inclined to pay up otherwise, I don't think you have anything to lose. If these are hardened criminals, then they will probably just continue to ignore you. If these are "normally" respectable citizens who see an opportunity to get away with $400 worth of free stuff with no real repercussions, the thought of the police getting involved might scare them straight and you'll get your money. Again - an avenue I would take though might not be for everyone...

Surley Disney most have some responsibility here? If you state no charging to room, then none should be done...

I understand that Disney doesn't currently have responsibility in this because they (from what it seems) do not at this point allow owners to indicate "no charging" on rental reservations (or won't agree to enforce it - whichever it is). With that said, I don't see why (in the future) they couldn't implement this policy. It would not be a difficult thing to do and as we see now, certain benefits are already excluded for "renters". Since you are actually allowed to rent your points, I think Disney should also allow you to designate whether or not your renter can have room charging privileges. For those who do rentals to non-members, this could be something you bring up to management as something you would like to see implemented. It would certainly help to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen to someone else - rare as it is... My two cents.

Terri

 

[lisah0711]

Either way, you've spent untold thousands of dollars to recover $400. That's foolish.

Remember: there is no world in which the "right thing" automatically happens, there is just the real world. In the real world, sometimes you lose money because other people cheat you, and the only viable alternative is to accept the loss and move on. In short, sometimes crime does pay.

So, true! That's why I tell my clients we have a legal system, not a justice system. Sometimes right doesn't prevail.

Oh, yeah, and don't forget that even if you do win, and have a judgment entered in your favor, you may still never collect and end up with just a piece of paper suitable for framing.

 

[Brian Noble]

Some people take damage deposits for these sorts of things, but the trick is not returning the deposit until you know you won't be charged for anything the renter did.

Some folks take damage deposits, and just refund them automatically seven or fourteen days after the rental's conclusion, without even checking. The theory behind this approach is that anyone planning mischeif will rent from someone else. This is sort of like having the alarm company sign in your lawn, but not ever actually installing the alarm system. Easy, and generally effective.

OP: on the bright side, if you never do get paid, you can at least put the loss as a deduction on your Schedule E against the rental income. That will lessen the sting a little bit.

 

[JimMIA]

Regardless of the above, if it were me, I would still go the "threat" route. You will either get the money or your won't - since these people don't seem inclined to pay up otherwise, I don't think you have anything to lose. If these are hardened criminals, then they will probably just continue to ignore you. If these are "normally" respectable citizens who see an opportunity to get away with $400 worth of free stuff with no real repercussions, the thought of the police getting involved might scare them straight and you'll get your money. Again - an avenue I would take though might not be for everyone...

I've never been a fan of idle threats.

OP could try this approach, but it's a lot better threat when there is some substantive crime that you could actually charge them with if they don't pay. That's not the case here. And even if it had been the case at some point, OP has already effectively waived the criminal option by giving them what the law considers an extension of credit.

There was a DVC rental situation a couple of years ago where there was clearly fraud, and the victim went to the police and obtained help. I wasn't a party to the phone call, but I suspect the detective called the crook (actually, the crook's aunt) and told them, "Look...the victim doesn't want to make this a criminal matter..."

That's a very credible threat when it comes from a law enforcement officer directly. If the victim makes that threat, many people on the other side would simply say, "Go ahead -- take your best shot. We didn't intentionally do anything wrong and we're going to pay you as soon as we can. If you want to play Mr. Hardnose, we'll pay you when you make us pay you." As lisah0711 correctly points out, actually compelling payment is a much different problem than just taking legal action.

 

[disneynutz]

This has got me thinking.

The renter used a credit card that had been shut down for security reasons by the credit card issuer after Disney swiped the card for approval. Is this correct so far?

If the renter gave the card at check in, they would have received express check out and they balance would have been charged to the card on file the morning of check out. If the card was declined, the Front Desk would have contacted the room first AM. Did the renter just walk out?

Also the folio that the renter received when they checked out has the accounting phone number on it. If the renter wanted to, they can call and give them the replacement credit card number and clear this whole thing up.

 

[ChelleinNC]

If the renter gave the card at check in, they would have received express check out and they balance would have been charged to the card on file the morning of check out. If the card was declined, the Front Desk would have contacted the room first AM. Did the renter just walk out?

Not necessarily. As I mentioned in my case, I wasn't contacted for 5 months even though I was at the front desk during/after check out time.

 

[fatfish]

[OP: on the bright side, if you never do get paid, you can at least put the loss as a deduction on your Schedule E against the rental income. That will lessen the sting a little bit.[/QUOTE]

You assume people will even report the rental income....

Actually, if youare not a "professional renter" ie you only rent 1 set of points once a year, you rent for less than 14 days and you don't have another vacation home, you are not required to pay income taxes on the rental income. Just one of those obscure and strange IRS rules....

 

[Cmbar]

This is a hard thing to hear. As a renter many times, I am saddened to hear someone would do this to a DVC owner.

When we rent we always ask for a contract and I would guess that putting in a clause about any expenses incurred might work, but I know nothing about the law. The idea of a damage or charge refundable deposit sounds reasonable kinda like a security deposit on a rental home.

To the OP I am so sorry this happened to you.

I hope it doesn't discourage you to rent again. We have rented from the same couple so many times we have actually become friends via the internet with them Now we don't even consider doing contracts with them for our trips. But they trust us so they rent out their points to our friends and I insist they do contracts with others. Just so it makes both sides feel better. It is a shame people are dishonest sometimes.

 

[Ella's Mom]

We rented a week at Wyndham Bonnet Creek last March from someone. If I remember correctly, Bonnet Creek charged my credit card $100.00 at check-in. They credited my account $100.00 at check-out since we didn't make any charges. Maybe they have had similar situations happen in the past.

 

[Brian Noble]

Actually, if youare not a "professional renter" ie you only rent 1 set of points once a year, you rent for less than 14 days and you don't have another vacation home, you are not required to pay income taxes on the rental income. Just one of those obscure and strange IRS rules....

It turns out that this is unlikely to be true for most people, though it is a common mistake. Here is a nice article that summarizes the reason why.

http://www.tug2.net/advice/TUG_Taxes_and_Timeshares.htm

Scroll down to the section on "Vacation Home Rules"

For a DVC owner, you'd have to use the points for at least 15 days yourself in a calendar year before you can exclude the rental of 14 days or less. Most don't own quite that many points, but some do.

 

[Sammie]

Just because only 2 cases have been reported on the DIS does not mean that is all that have occurred, there is another world out there.

Other cases have occurred, also cases of damages to the room, that were passed on to the member.

As others have said, it is too big of a risk for me to take. If I ever rent it will be someone I know well enough to be able to go to their house to collect any additional money.

 

[DVC Mike]

The DVC Membership Agreement is clear:

The renting club member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of the renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Club Member to use the Vacation Home.

 

[LisaS]

I understand that Disney doesn't currently have responsibility in this because they (from what it seems) do not at this point allow owners to indicate "no charging" on rental reservations (or won't agree to enforce it - whichever it is). With that said, I don't see why (in the future) they couldn't implement this policy. It would not be a difficult thing to do and as we see now, certain benefits are already excluded for "renters". Since you are actually allowed to rent your points, I think Disney should also allow you to designate whether or not your renter can have room charging privileges. For those who do rentals to non-members, this could be something you bring up to management as something you would like to see implemented. It would certainly help to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen to someone else - rare as it is... My two cents.

I see a couple of issues with this. The first is that I don't think Disney really wants to get involved in rental issues. If they are responsible for enforcing the member's instructions on whether or not to allow room charges, they are then responsible if they make a mistake and allow charges when the member requested that charges not be allowed. The second issue is that if they need software changes to put this feature in place, that will cost Disney money even though they gain nothing since they make no money on the rental. Their other option would be to charge the membership as a whole for the software changes but that isn't really fair since those of us who do not rent shouldn't be charged (via our dues) to put new features in place that benefit members who do rent.

 

[Tara]

I see a couple of issues with this. The first is that I don't think Disney really wants to get involved in rental issues. If they are responsible for enforcing the member's instructions on whether or not to allow room charges, they are then responsible if they make a mistake and allow charges when the member requested that charges not be allowed. The second issue is that if they need software changes to put this feature in place, that will cost Disney money even though they gain nothing since they make no money on the rental. Their other option would be to charge the membership as a whole for the software changes but that isn't really fair since those of us who do not rent shouldn't be charged (via our dues) to put new features in place that benefit members who do rent.

Moreover, I can't see Disney wanting to do this. They've already lost revenue because a guest is paying a member for points rather than spending money on a room through CRO. I can't imagine they'd want to further inhibit the guest from spending money by not allowing room charging.

 

[Sammie]

Assisting members in renting their points by Disney is not going to happen in any form.

 

[HookdonWDW]

Just because only 2 cases have been reported on the DIS does not mean that is all that have occurred, there is another world out there.

Other cases have occurred, also cases of damages to the room, that were passed on to the member.

As others have said, it is too big of a risk for me to take. If I ever rent it will be someone I know well enough to be able to go to their house to collect any additional money.

Actually, more than two cases have been reported in my time on the DISBoards. One of them was ours. Fortunately, our incident also involved a family member, and it was amicably resolved in the end.

For the OP, unfortunately, once the vacation is over, some people suddenly lower the priority for paying for the Mickey Bars, photos and sweatshirts that they HAD to have during their trip. It's sad, but true. Sending you some pixie dust, hoping that your situation gets resolved soon, and you get the money back.