Points not transferred

[jamie3631]

I need your insight! I purchased a resale contract for Boardwalk, the deed and mortgage were recorded on 6/26 so everything is done. I called Disney Friday to get my member id nukber and was told it would be available today. I called today and was told that they could not complete the transfer. They would initially not tell me why and told me to contact my broker. My sales agent just left that brokerage firm within the past two weeks so I don't have a dedicated contact so I explained to Disney. The lady told me she shouldn't tell me this but that there is a reservation on the account for July 25th for five days. After much back and forth with the title company, who also contacted Disney, I'm being told that there is nothing we can do. My guaranteed closing period in the contract is for the first week in August, so since it's within the guaranteed closing period there's nothing I can do. My deed and mortgage were recorded 6/26 and Disney confirmed the points would have been in my account today if not for this reservation that the seller has. Disney is telling the title company the reservation was made quite some time ago so it was not made after estoppel. I thought the point of estoppel was to find existing reservations etc? They told me no, if just checks to ensure points are there. This trip is using 2015 points. I purchased 2016 points moving forward. I was concerned he could use my points but Disney said my points are locked down and he can't touch them. My other concern is regards to damage. Am I responsible if damage occurs during this trip since deed is in my namr but membership has not officially transferred? I don't have a member number yet. I thought any reservations would be cancelled or closing would have to be pushed back. I don't understand how I just have to wait now when everything is literally done. Also there is nothing in the original listing (as I have the email the broker sent) nor in my contract or any other communications with the broker or title company, that ever disclosed an existing reservation or a can't close before date. How could we have closed with an existing reservation??? This all just doesn't seem right to me. Had anyone else experienced this or heard of this? Any advice? Thanks!!!!

 

[Bbguy5]

This is pretty messed up. It should have been a delayed closing until after this trip. The agent should have also told you this up front and I'm sure the seller probably told them.

 

[jamie3631]

This is pretty messed up. It should have been a delayed closing until after this trip. The agent should have also told you this up front and I'm sure the seller probably told them.

Agreed! I always saw the postings with can't close till x date.

Isn't this caught in estoppel? Everyone is claiming the seller never disclosed this. Am I responsible for any damage that occurs? And wouldn't he be able to access our points? I don't get how my points are isolated if it's not transferred yet..I would think he could go there and request an upgrade etc using my points.

 

[supersnoop]

Am I responsible for any damage that occurs? And wouldn't he be able to access our points?

No and no. Estoppel is the process of locking down the account. Nobody can access the points until the estoppel is release up transferring the points or cancelling the deal.

I can commiserate with you; it sucks. But there's no harm to be done and you'll still close within the contracted time period and you'll still receive all the points you purchased.

 

[jamie3631]

No and no. Estoppel is the process of locking down the account. Nobody can access the points until the estoppel is release up transferring the points or cancelling the deal.

I can commiserate with you; it sucks. But there's no harm to be done and you'll still close within the contracted time period and you'll still receive all the points you purchased.

Thanks! I had just never seen anything like this before, where it wasn't disclosed.

 

[ELMC]

Thanks! I had just never seen anything like this before, where it wasn't disclosed.

You should definitely address this point with your broker. They receive a commission to provide a service, and not disclosing an existing reservation is omitting information that is relevant to your purchase decision and, quite frankly, not delivering the service that you are (essentially) paying for. In other words, it is not unreasonable to ask for a credit of a portion of the commission they received. Good luck.

 

[bumbershoot]

My guaranteed closing period in the contract is for the first week in August

there is a reservation on the account for July 25th for five days

This trip is using 2015 points. I purchased 2016 points moving forward.

Also there is nothing in the original listing (as I have the email the broker sent) nor in my contract or any other communications with the broker or title company, that ever disclosed an existing reservation or a can't close before date.

They might not have spelled it out, but it seems that a guaranteed closing of 2016+ UY just as the current owners finish their vacation on original 2015 UY* isn't coincidence.

You should definitely address this point with your broker.

I feel like there might be a reason for the next bit...

My sales agent just left that brokerage firm within the past two weeks

Wonder how often he did this. I'm with supersnoop, but I'm sure it would have been nice to see it laid out and obvious. Rather than having to piece it together.



*although original 2015 UY being used now means they were banked to 2016 UY. Huh. I mean, they aren't 2015 once they are banked; they become 2016. Well now I've confused myself.

 

[gharter]

I would agree that your points should be fine and should close after the trip.
I also would contact the brokerage firm as I would not be very happy not knowing about the last trip the previous owners were taking. While it may not have made any difference in your offer, there are situations where you may have deided to pass on placing an offer on that contract.

Hope the rest goes smoother.

 

[ELMC]

By Florida law, timeshare brokers are required to fully disclose any known facts that materially affect the value of a property. Delayed closings are a deterrent to sales, and disclosing this could have led to less demand and a lower sales price. Bottom line is that they were in violation of Florida State Statutes and the purchaser has a valid claim against them. I would think that the broker would want to make an accommodation to settle the issue, and I would suggest to them that you are aware of your options as a buyer and that you would like to see the issue settled amicably.

 

[Dean]

By Florida law, timeshare brokers are required to fully disclose any known facts that materially affect the value of a property. Delayed closings are a deterrent to sales, and disclosing this could have led to less demand and a lower sales price. Bottom line is that they were in violation of Florida State Statutes and the purchaser has a valid claim against them. I would think that the broker would want to make an accommodation to settle the issue, and I would suggest to them that you are aware of your options as a buyer and that you would like to see the issue settled amicably.

The broker may not have known and I suspect didn't. They would have just delayed the closing were they purposefully withholding the info since it would have still met the requirements of the contract. In reality by the time anyone can do anything, the time will have passed. The only question is whether there are "economic" damages such as not being able to get the reservation one likely could have gotten otherwise. If this is a consideration the broker might be able to help get a reservation on a different contract with a transfer or compensatory use of points once this is finished.

 

[ziravan]

Tell the broker you were misled and want to cancel the deal. The fact that it was already transferred to you is their problem not yours. Tell them that you are going to formally complain to the state.

Start there.

The hassle of dealing with either or both of those scenarios will get the broker's immediate and undivided attention.

Then.

Let THEM bend over backwards to figure out how to make it right with you.

If you want to be compensated for this - and you should - then this is a freaking disaster for the broker. Your best opening negotiation position is to point out just what a mess this is for the broker.

(If they try to tell you that it's too late to cancel the contract because the rescission period has passed, tell them that this has nothing to do with the revision period. Contracts negotiated in bad faith aren't valid. Omitting a substantial material condition of the contract is bad faith, whether the broker knew about it or not. The sellers certainly knew about it.)

 

[ziravan]

Think about it this way. Would you have bid on this contract if you knew it was encumbered?

My guess by your posts is no.

You were misled into purchasing this contract. That's a true fact whether the broker was aware or not. The owners were certainly aware that they had a trip booked.

Should you be compensated for being misled into buying a contract you wouldn't have otherwise bought? I think absolutely.

In any case, this is a complete mess for the broker. It should be worth it to them to pay to make it go away.

The bottom line is that this is a problem, but it's not your problem; it's the broker's problem. They need to fix it.

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

I can't advise you on next steps, but I will say that if this happened to me I would be furious and would be looking for options to make it right.

 

[Dean]

Tell the broker you were misled and want to cancel the deal. The fact that it was already transferred to you is their problem not yours. Tell them that you are going to formally complain to the state.

Start there.

The hassle of dealing with either or both of those scenarios will get the broker's immediate and undivided attention.

Then.

Let THEM bend over backwards to figure out how to make it right with you.

If you want to be compensated for this - and you should - then this is a freaking disaster for the broker. Your best opening negotiation position is to point out just what a mess this is for the broker.

(If they try to tell you that it's too late to cancel the contract because the rescission period has passed, tell them that this has nothing to do with the revision period. Contracts negotiated in bad faith aren't valid. Omitting a substantial material condition of the contract is bad faith, whether the broker knew about it or not. The sellers certainly knew about it.)

This is what, a two week delay. While there may be aggravation there may not be any true loss here. I just don't see it as that big of a deal.

 

[supersnoop]

My guess by your posts is no.

Why would you guess that? The original, contracted, close-by date is still past the end of the reservation.

My bet is that the seller expected the process to take much longer. The resale process seems to have gotten about 30 days shorter than it was just a few months ago. The seller may have expected the process to extend past their reservation, but it all went much more smoothly and quickly.

 

[ziravan]

Why would you guess that? The original, contracted, close-by date is still past the end of the reservation.

My bet is that the seller expected the process to take much longer. The resale process seems to have gotten about 30 days shorter than it was just a few months ago. The seller may have expected the process to extend past their reservation, but it all went much more smoothly and quickly.

My bet is that's exactly what happened. The seller thought they could get their trip done without it being noticed and so purposely failed to disclose the use of the points in order not to have to discount the contract to sell it.

The fact that they otherwise might have gotten away with the omission isn't relevant,

It was an omission.

It was a material omission that has now affected the transfer of ownership.

If I were me and I knew that the previous owners were using points that would otherwise have transferred to me, that would have accompanied a steep discount in price. That the sellers hid that is nothing short of fraud in my opinion.

I'd be on the warpath.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

OP - is it even certain that the seller remembered they have the reservation? Sometimes owners are not that savvy. I assume the broker has been in contact with them but assumptions aren't always correct.

Tell the broker you were misled and want to cancel the deal. The fact that it was already transferred to you is their problem not yours. Tell them that you are going to formally complain to the state.

Start there.

The hassle of dealing with either or both of those scenarios will get the broker's immediate and undivided attention.

Then.

Let THEM bend over backwards to figure out how to make it right with you.

If you want to be compensated for this - and you should - then this is a freaking disaster for the broker. Your best opening negotiation position is to point out just what a mess this is for the broker.

(If they try to tell you that it's too late to cancel the contract because the rescission period has passed, tell them that this has nothing to do with the revision period. Contracts negotiated in bad faith aren't valid. Omitting a substantial material condition of the contract is bad faith, whether the broker knew about it or not. The sellers certainly knew about it.)

I agree that the closing date on this is still past the date of the reservation and only a couple of weeks away and almost certainly not worth going thru all that you suggest. OP couldn't come close to finding, bidding on an closing on a similar contract in that time should it be cancelled and it's not much of a threat if you're not willing to stand by it. Is it bad that the seller didn't disclose? Yes. And from previous experience I'm surprised that Disney didn't let the broker know about the reservation way back when they should have been verifying the contract.

It actually doesn't fall outside the closing date so not much to threaten with as proving damage due to not closing early is going to be difficult, time consuming and likely costly and a lost battle before it starts. The OP would likely be the loser on this and for a couple of weeks I know I wouldn't consider it worth the hassle.

 

[ziravan]

OP - is it even certain that the seller remembered they have the reservation? Sometimes owners are not that savvy. I assume the broker has been in contact with them but assumptions aren't always correct.



I agree that the closing date on this is still past the date of the reservation and only a couple of weeks away and almost certainly not worth going thru all that you suggest. OP couldn't come close to finding, bidding on an closing on a similar contract in that time should it be cancelled and it's not much of a threat if you're not willing to stand by it. Is it bad that the seller didn't disclose? Yes. And from previous experience I'm surprised that Disney didn't let the broker know about the reservation way back when they should have been verifying the contract.

It actually doesn't fall outside the closing date so not much to threaten with as proving damage due to not closing early is going to be difficult, time consuming and likely costly and a lost battle before it starts. The OP would likely be the loser on this and for a couple of weeks I know I wouldn't consider it worth the hassle.

It's not about the closing date. It's about the points.

If you represent to me that a contract has X amount of points when you sell it, that's one thing.

If you're using points in the meantime then that's another thing altogether. The seller is using points that otherwise would have gone to the buyer.

This is normally disclosed for a reason.

It's the difference between a contract that is already stripped and one actively BEING stripped. If you're actively stripping a contract while selling it, that should come at a price.

Not disclosing that fact to avoid paying that price is fraud.

It wouldn't be an idle threat on my part to back out. I don't do business - on principle - with people trying to cheat me.

It's not that difficult to advertise that a contract can be closed after 7/30. People do it all the time. Failing to disclose that until after a contract is transferred is wrong. The broker needs to make it right - or eat it.

At a minimum, I would want the same number of points being used transferred back into my new account.

 

[bumbershoot]

It's not about the closing date. It's about the points.

If you represent to me that a contract has X amount of points when you sell it, that's one thing.

If you're using points in the meantime then that's another thing altogether. The seller is using points that otherwise would have gone to the buyer.
******

It's not that difficult to advertise that a contract can be closed after 7/30.

If you re-read the OP I think you'll see that she's getting the points she expected. I think there are intricacies of wording that WE would notice (2015 points banked into 2016 UY for use in 2017 year are in fact 2016 points, not 2015 points) but the OP might not have.

I don't think she's getting fewer points than she expected.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

It's not about the closing date. It's about the points.

If you represent to me that a contract has X amount of points when you sell it, that's one thing.

If you're using points in the meantime then that's another thing altogether. The seller is using points that otherwise would have gone to the buyer.

This is normally disclosed for a reason.

It's the difference between a contract that is already stripped and one actively BEING stripped. If you're actively stripping a contract while selling it, that should come at a price.

Not disclosing that fact to avoid paying that price is fraud.

It wouldn't be an idle threat on my part to back out. I don't do business - on principle - with people trying to cheat me.

It's not that difficult to advertise that a contract can be closed after 7/30. People do it all the time. Failing to disclose that until after a contract is transferred is wrong. The broker needs to make it right - or eat it.

At a minimum, I would want the same number of points being used transferred back into my new account.

I did not read anything in OP's post that they weren't getting all the points they expected to. The reservation is using points that were not mentioned in the sale as I understand it.