Point Charts - Call with Disney Management Tomorrow (12/16)

[sethschroeder]

I wanted to let everyone know I have a call with someone out of the regulatory department within DVC. In addition it sounds like possibly one of the individuals who directly works on the point charts will also be on the call as well.

I had reached out calling in to question the point shift from Studios to 1BR/2BR categories within Riviera and other resorts.

If anyone has questions specific to the point charts please let me know and I will see about making sure to ask the questions. Understand the questions need to be with-in reason as its unlikely they will have or share answers regarding to future point chart years.

I had given them a heads up if there is certain information they don't want widely spread I am okay with that but did outline I am also a member here and do discuss the topic with other DVC members.

 

[sethschroeder]

Question Topics:

• Movement of total points between categories
  • RIV: Studios -> 1BR/2BR
  • BWV: Std Studio -> 1BR Pref
  • VGF: Std Studio -> 1BR Std (GV was perfectly balanced 0% change YoY)
• Demand based movement
  • Summer Lower, Fall Higher, No movement to early December
  • How do they view demand
    • Dates as a whole?
    • Room type specific?
  • What is their view of 1BR demand
    • My comment: 1BR always seems the last to book
• Base Year they use to calculate total points
• Creation of View Category
  • Limitations of such (could they split point cost at BWV example)
  • Specific to RIV idea (Preferred, Fireworks/Epcot, Standard Views)
• Limitations (from their view of what can change)
  • Lock off premium (raise, lower, rules to changes)

 

[sethschroeder]

Notes from discussion:

(Sorry will not share who I talked with for their privacy)

• Studio vs 1BR Point
  • DVC did not purposely shift points between categories, it was a result of the changes that happened
  • They clearly heard feedback regarding the point shift between categories (they will generally try to avoid if possible)
  • They do believe they have the right to move points between categories
• Seasons
  • Specific this year they recognized the F&W/Fall Demand while Summer was less so in demand (not new knowledge)
  • They look at each room category differently when balancing (Studios during F&W while 1BR during summer may be separate peak seasons)
  • They did outline they have the right to change a day by 20% but try to keep it down to more like 5% or 10% as they do see a spike in member feedback when its a large change
  • They have both short and long term views of how they want to balance seasons (I did not push for more information)
  • Early December they said was "difficult" to balance based on when Thanksgiving/Christmas falls
• Demand
  • While it is secret exactly how they look at things they did share a couple things
  • DVC Demand is part of the balance
  • WDW as a whole is also part of the balance
  • Each resort is also review separately
  • If new land, ride, or election occur they understand demand will change based on such events
  • They made sure to call out they are not looking to change point requirements to help with the cash rental side of the business
• Base Year
  • There is a specific number of points and that is the number of points to book 100% of the rooms in the base year
  • Each resort has possibly a different base year, it was not a singular base year but they know what the base year is for x, y, z resorts
  • The base year does actually exist and does occur during the life of the resort (2x or 3x is what was stated)
• Riviera
  • Way to early to get a good idea of demand
  • It will take a couple years for them to get a good idea on resort specific demand
  • They recognized that views have been added previously but there has been zero discussion about view changes
    • Provided feedback of Lake, Epcot/Skyliner/Fireworks, and Standard View
    • Asked that in the future they possibly check in with a survey to RIV owners regarding views
    • If large amount of requests occur on specific rooms with front desk those are noted and reviewed for view changes

A point of context to this is that I was happy to have the call and did not confront them on things but more so asked clarifying questions. One thing I didn't push harder on was the Studio vs 1BR shift in points at Riviera I plan on instead to continue to monitor the next couple years and see if it self corrects or not.

 

[bookwormde]

Question Topics:

• Movement of total points between categories
  • RIV: Studios -> 1BR/2BR
  • BWV: Std Studio -> 1BR Pref
• Demand based movement
  • Summer Lower, Fall Higher, No movement to early December
  • How do they view demand
    • Dates as a whole?
    • Room type specific?
  • What is their view of 1BR demand
    • My comment: 1BR always seems the last to book
• Limitations (from their view of what can change)

I will be really interested in how they answer why they do not adjust for the under demand of 1br units. The assumption has always been that it would cause a rise in the cost of higher demand studios (except where all 1brs are part of lockoffs) which would impact DVDs sales strategy to sell on lower nightly cost of studios vs cash hotel rooms, of course this has never aligned with the regulatory requirements.

 

[jbh275]

Please give an update when done. Very interested.

 

[drusba]

I will be really interested in how they answer why they do not adjust for the under demand of 1br units. The assumption has always been that it would cause a rise in the cost of higher demand studios (except where all 1brs are part of lockoffs) which would impact DVDs sales strategy to sell on lower nightly cost of studios vs cash hotel rooms, of course this has never aligned with the regulatory requirements.

Note as to the above, if you are actually going to ask why they do not make 1BRs lower due to lower demand and are going to provide the view that DVC should lower 1BRs and thus raise other rooms such as studios, please let them also know that there are many members, including me, who strongly oppose any such shift of points from one room category to another, and believe it would be a violation of the POS, including the DVC Membership Ageement, and, particularly in relation to older resorts, like BWV, it would be violation of written representations made by DVD during the sale of the points which assured buyers that adjustments would be seasonal only and total annual points for a particular room category, such as a studio, would not change.

 

[Sandisw]

I would like to know what language from the POS guides the lock off premium and If that has to stay point neutral like the entire chart does.

Is it different for RIV than older resorts?

 

[Wakey]

I agree with Drusba re earlier representations but they are doing it anyway- so why the heck are they not making 1 beds cheaper? Everyone who owns DVC knows they are always generally last to go. The keeping studios cheaper for sales is one I had not really considered before.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I agree with Drusba re earlier representations but they are doing it anyway- so why the heck are they not making 1 beds cheaper? Everyone who owns DVC knows they are always generally last to go. The keeping studios cheaper for sales is one I had not really considered before.

I also am perfectly happy, or rather believe they should, follow the POS and other representations that I feel show they cannot move between villa sizes. But since DVC seems to think it is allowable and do appear to move between villa sizes then 1BR's should be going down. They need to correct in the initial point chart and sales of upcoming resorts for the high studio demand compared to 1BR's.

 

[Minniemoo15]

I am curious about why PVB’s total points in 2022 have expanded and are now, for the first time, more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. How much over the POS total declared points are they allowed to go?

 

[bookwormde]

Note as to the above, if you are actually going to ask why they do not make 1BRs lower due to lower demand and are going to provide the view that DVC should lower 1BRs and thus raise other rooms such as studios, please let them also know that there are many members, including me, who strongly oppose any such shift of points from one room category to another, and believe it would be a violation of the POS, including the DVC Membership Ageement, and, particularly in relation to older resorts, like BWV, it would be violation of written representations made by DVD during the sale of the points which assured buyers that adjustments would be seasonal only and total annual points for a particular room category, such as a studio, would not change.

This is interesting, I have never found it in a POS, They have also done changes between preference levels and large adjustments between weekday and weekend in addition to season adjustments.

 

[sethschroeder]

written representations made by DVD during the sale of the points which assured buyers that adjustments would be seasonal only and total annual points for a particular room category, such as a studio, would not change.

Do you have an example of this by chance you could share?

I am curious about why PVB’s total points in 2022 have expanded and are now, for the first time, more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. How much over the POS total declared points are they allowed to go?

I will see if I can fit it in. The hope is that getting a "base year" that they compare everything against will answer the question in itself. If they will not specify the base year then I will push for the max over/under that is allowed in comparison to total points at the resort.

This is interesting, I have never found it in a POS, They have also done changes between preference levels and large adjustments between weekday and weekend in addition to season adjustments.

I am not going to argue if they can or can not do it based on the POS or anything else. My goal is to get clarification on their views of what they can do and why they are doing it.

It would seem they believe they can do it (I will outline some believe they can't so is there language that states they can) and if they can make changes how do they explain then increasing points in "lesser" booked rooms or what data do they have/track.

 

[Aussie RJ]

oppose any such shift of points from one room category to another

@drusba, I completely agree with this statement. However, don't we have a precedent set when SSR added the Treehouses?

 

[ford91exploder]

I am curious about why PVB’s total points in 2022 have expanded and are now, for the first time, more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. How much over the POS total declared points are they allowed to go?

Is Disney creating points once again?, I thought they learned their lesson last time around - apparently not the case.

 

[ford91exploder]

@drusba, I completely agree with this statement. However, don't we have a precedent set when SSR added the Treehouses?

Not really because the resort physically expanded its guest capacity while adding a new class of rooms.

not creating points out of thin air as this move appears to be

 

[bookwormde]

Do you have an example of this by chance you could share?



I will see if I can fit it in. The hope is that getting a "base year" that they compare everything against will answer the question in itself. If they will not specify the base year then I will push for the max over/under that is allowed in comparison to total points at the resort.



I am not going to argue if they can or can not do it based on the POS or anything else. My goal is to get clarification on their views of what they can do and why they are doing it.

It would seem they believe they can do it (I will outline some believe they can't so is there language that states they can) and if they can make changes how do they explain then increasing points in "lesser" booked rooms or what data do they have/track.

Yes this is wise, the why is more important in a informal regulatory meeting.
Challenging authority to do this would just get kicked to another venue

 

[Aussie RJ]

Not really because the resort physically expanded its guest capacity while adding a new class of rooms.

not creating points out of thin air as this move appears to be

But points were moved between room categories and you now could say the membership accepted these changes.

 

[ford91exploder]

But points were moved between room categories and you now could say the membership accepted these changes.

True but the resort physically declared more rooms as part of that. In this case looks like points are being added while NOTHING about the resort has changed no rooms added or removed to make room for an ameni

Hence a big no no,

I’ve always wondered when the decline in DVC standards would bring on the ‘creative accounting’ so frequently seen at sleazy offshore timeshare operations.

From this it looks like they learned nothing from last years points dustup

 

[bookwormde]

I also am perfectly happy, or rather believe they should, follow the POS and other representations that I feel show they cannot move between villa sizes. But since DVC seems to think it is allowable and do appear to move between villa sizes then 1BR's should be going down. They need to correct in the initial point chart and sales of upcoming resorts for the high studio demand compared to 1BR's.

I rechecked my 06/2006 OKW book and they have sole discretion (page172 5.2) to reallocate (not more than 20% for any day) which appears to mean for any reason that balances demand. The only prohibition on sliding points from 1 unit type to another is when the adjustment is seasonal (page 194 paragraph 2). My guess is this was done to avoid conflating different rationales. it is also notable that there are only 2br and GVs that are considered on this sliding prohibition at OKW so 1br and studios could be rebalaced at the same time.

 

[CarolMN]

It is also notable that there are only 2br and GVs that are considered on this sliding prohibition at OKW so 1br and studios could be rebalaced at the same time.

That's probably because OKW does not have any dedicated studios or 1 bedrooms and lock offs are counted as 2 bedrooms.