Please tell me why Dessert but no appetizer with Dining plan?

[havoc315]

, and the cigarette analogy is just ridiculous. I can't even comment on that.

According to the New England Journal of Medicine, obesity now presents a greater threat to life expectancy in America than smoking does.

Eating an extra thousand calories in a day, is no less dangerous than smoking a half pack of cigarettes.

 

[Disneyadore]

It fits the "largest" people.. not sure about the largest group.

Nobody is being forced to eat healthy or unhealthy. Nobody is being forced to eat the whole-grain buns-- As nobody is being forced to buy the product at all. And nobody is being forced to buy fatty desserts.

But the meal plan pushes people in a certain direction. Yes, pushed towards whole-grains, but also pushed towards over-indulgent, high calorie foods.

I see it the opposite way. We buy the Deluxe plan so an appetizer,entree and dessert.
The portions are huge indeed but we just eat as much as we like but don't stuff ourselves like a goose.
The problem is that people just think they have to eat all that is on their plate and after stuffing themselves they ask for a doggie bag.
Its just a matter how you can handle yourself.

 

[tony67]

So disney should be responsible because regular people cant? Just trying to get some clarification here.

This is the real problem I have.

People need to make their own choices, grow up and be an adult.

If you do not like the plan do not get it.
If it works for 60% of the people going to Disney then it works.
I am so tired of people expecting the nanny state or company to make the choices for you.
You are supposed to be an adult with free choice make it. If the plan does not work for you then do not get it.
I do not get the DDP.

As for the plan I'll say it again, I do not like it because the quality of the food is not what it was.
It is all about the quantity of food you get and how much you can save.
It is not about quality.

That being said when the quality was better (IMO) the restaurants were not as full.
The DDP has filled the restaurants, kept people on site, put more money into the pockets of the servers and saved the majority of guests money.

So switch it and have the Hummus sandwich for lunch, and Tony's for dinner --- the end bill would be the same. I picked a fairly typical reasonable eating combination. Eating a steak every day during a 5-7 day vacation really is not reasonable eating. (Even though plenty of people do it).

Of course, I completely forgot to note that as of March 2011 -- The meal that you just listed as being a reasonable amount of food, would still cost $59 out of pocket, but on the meal plan, the exact same amount of food would cost $79! (You would need 3 meal credits in order to pay for your example, meaning you would need to be on the deluxe plan).

So as of March 2011, your reasonable meal, would result in a net loss of $20, if you used the meal plan.

Even if you tossed in a pretty expensive appetizer, it would still be a losing day. Plus of course, once you throw in the appetizer, you start entering the realm of way too many calories.

To be fair you really need to look at it in the package, since it is part of a package deal, even when you pay for it.
For example you get free dinning or a room discount. You have to book a room and tickets to get the DDP.

A family of 4 (All 10+) staying at a value resort with free dinning pays 159 or so for the room including the upgrade to the DDP from QSDP, but gets 141 or so in dinning.
They can skip every dessert and still come out ahead.

If you buy the plan and choose to skip dessert at every meal you may not break even over several days.

But if you buy the plan and get occasional desserts and eat a steak here and there or splurge here and there you will most likely break even.

In the end eating way too much during your week at Disney is not the problem.
Eating wrong at home the other 350-360 days a year is the issue for many (not all – there are other reason people are overweight).

 

[tony67]

According to the New England Journal of Medicine, obesity now presents a greater threat to life expectancy in America than smoking does.

Eating an extra thousand calories in a day, is no less dangerous than smoking a half pack of cigarettes.

Of course 5 years from now another study may refute this.

For example a lot of the data related to second hand smoke is anecdotal but accepted.

There was just a study out that said heavy drinkers live longer than those that do not drink.

Another example is HFCS. In the past it was blamed for the weight problem.
Now studies are saying maybe it is not as bad as real sugar and the real issue may be that it is in high calorie food.

I've also seen studies that say that the artificial sweetener in diet soda will actually make you eat more.

There may come a study down the road that says we should eat an ice cream sunday every day because it is good for you.

I am not saying obesity is not a problen, it is.
But people should be allowed to make thier own choices and enjoy eating what they want on vacation without judgement from others.

 

[AmberHeartsDisney]

if the meal plan is not a good fit either by the food included or cost, simply do not get it. Pay out of pocket.

Then what would we complain about

 

[tony67]

Then what would we complain about

Excellent point!

M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.

 

[Cafeen]

It's kind of funny if you think about it. The arguments used to point out that the sensible diet isn't a value on the dining plan and therefore Disney is pushing the non-sensible diet can also be used to support Disney if you take the Dining plan out of the picture.

Since the sensible options are cheaper (thus making them less of a value on a dining plan) Disney is supporting the sensible diet by charging less for said options. A sensible day may cost $40, while a not-so-sensible day will reach the $50-55 range. Stretch this over a typical 5 day stay, and you can save upwards of $100 just by eating more sensibly. On this point, it surely sounds like Disney is supporting sensibility.

Of course, they are hard selling the dining plan as of late, which goes against the sensibility argument, but it still stands that the sensible options (man, I need a thesaurus.. and a spell checker...) are cheaper than the more outlandish options.

Best of both worlds for Disney? Probably. They can cash in on people who aren't making ideal choices and claim that since their healthier options are cheaper overall, they are supporting a more sensible diet.

As to making yet another Dining Plan? The CMs on the phones barely have a handle on the 3 primary ones offered now (if at all!). The guests, likewise, have very little handle on the plans when they are first presented with them. And lastly, since there aren't any specific policies in place, most of the times the restaurants are free to do their own thing with regards to what is included and what is not (Soups/Salads, Milkshakes, Substitutions, etc). A fourth would only compound this issue.

Lastly, how would it even work? You could cut out Desserts, but that wouldn't make entree selection any better (where the better value is still the larger meals). In any pre-paid set-price system, the more expensive meals will always be the better value. Since the healthier options are typically cheaper than the no-so-healthy options, there's always going to be a deficit. We could make the healthier options more expensive to change their perceived value on a plan, but that wouldn't make much sense either. Alternatively, you can drop the plan's price enough so that the sensible options are a bit of a value, but to do that, you're going to have to drop the price by more than the cost of a dessert, making this plan not scaled the same as the current three. (And thus, pushing the DDP off to the side as this becomes a better deal even with OOP desserts). The last option would be to make it cheaper, but limit menu selection, which may work, but again lead to much confusion and issues with the restaurants not being consistent.

As for the original topic, it's been stated that desserts are cheaper to produce, easier to "mass produce", and removing a whole course (rather than giving the option) improves table turnover (opening up more slots in the day for more individual groups). There's also something to be said that by removing the first course, more people would likely pay OOP for it vs Dessert.

 

[TDC Nala]

Disney isn't hard-selling the dining plan because it's good for anyone's health. They're hard selling it because if they can get guests to buy it, it means they will stay onsite and eat most, if not all, of their meals at Disney World. That's gold for Disney, especially with the current temptation to sneak off to Universal to see what Harry Potter has got going. Not only that, but the guests might actually not eat all the food they pre-purchased, as they don't have any obligation to do so. Mickey then gets to keep the money without serving any food.

And they offer the items they offer because that is what the majority of their guests want to eat.

I'm not sure what a "meal plan for responsible eaters" would look like. You can redeem your meal credits only for items under a certain amount of fat and/or calories? How many people would buy a plan like that? Is it suggested this plan be offered in lieu of the current plan where guests can choose any menu item, or as another option? If you want to eat healthy, just don't get the dining plan at all and order what you want without worrying that the healthy options are cheaper.

 

[Debbie Jean]

I still maintain that healthy eating on the DDP is both possible and cost effective.

My example: A day at Epcot...

lunch at Sunshine Seasons, Rotisserie Chicken with salad and glazed carrots, fruit cup for dessert and iced tea comes to about $17

dinner at Chefs de France:
brochette de fruits de mer (scallops, mahi, mahi, and black tiger shrimp with grilled tomato and black pearl rice), salad de fruits frais (you can hold the sorbet) and iced tea comes to about $42

Snack of yogurt, fuit or juice about $3

Total for the day is $62

That's for healthy eating, regular DDP and you can see the savings is almost $20.

I don't think the problem is the DDP, though I have to agree a salad for an appetizer would be nice... it really comes down to choice... almost all restaurants offer fish, salad, fruit, etc. You have to order them!

If I'm doing a dining plan, I choose the deluxe, because I like the option of a salad and I find it much more challenging at CS to limit the carbs which I need to do as a diabetic. It works very well for me, and I save money.

YMMV

 

[havoc315]

The portions are huge indeed but we just eat as much as we like but don't stuff ourselves like a goose.

That is definitely one way to handle things. If an individual ordered mid-level items (in terms of calories and fat) for their meals, including appetizers and desserts, and ate less than half of their food, they would be eating reasonable portions.

But looking at it from a cost basis, if you're only eating less than half the food, it would be far cheaper to just pay OOP and share plates.

 

[havoc315]

If it works for 60% of the people going to Disney then it works.
I am so tired of people expecting the nanny state or company to make the choices for you.

68% of Americans are obese or overweight. I'm sure the plan works for the majority of these people.

Back in the 60's and 70's, a similar proportion of American adults were smokers.... So if 68% of Americans were still smokers, should facilities still accommodate non-smokers? Or simply say, "most people don't care about the second hand smoke... so if you don't like it, then just don't use the indoor facilities"

As to Nanny-state -- I agree, I don't want the government taking away choices. And I'm not even suggesting that Disney eliminate a single choice. I'm simply asking that Disney provide added choices --- Add a meal plan choice, for the 32% of Americans who are not fat.

 

[havoc315]

Of course 5 years from now another study may refute this.

For example a lot of the data related to second hand smoke is anecdotal but accepted.

....

I am not saying obesity is not a problen, it is.
But people should be allowed to make thier own choices and enjoy eating what they want on vacation without judgement from others.

I'm not judging anyone. I have no problem with people choosing to overindulge. If 68% of Americans want to be fat, so be it. But what would be wrong with Disney offering a choice for the other 32%?

And yes, you can decide you're just going to ignore science. But tons of data show that obesity shortens life expectancy, to the same degree as heavy smoking.

40 years ago, the attitude about smoking was similar to the attitude about obesity today. Sort of, "We know smoking isn't the healthiest thing in the world, but a pack a day really isn't going to do anything too terrible to you"

 

[havoc315]

Since the sensible options are cheaper (thus making them less of a value on a dining plan) Disney is supporting the sensible diet by charging less for said options. A sensible day may cost $40, while a not-so-sensible day will reach the $50-55 range. Stretch this over a typical 5 day stay, and you can save upwards of $100 just by eating more sensibly. On this point, it surely sounds like Disney is supporting sensibility.

Of course, they are hard selling the dining plan as of late, which goes against the sensibility argument, but it still stands that the sensible options (man, I need a thesaurus.. and a spell checker...) are cheaper than the more outlandish options.

Point 1 -- Completely true. Which is why the meal plan is not a good deal for sensible eaters.

Point 2-- Bingo as well. I booked the meal plan for my upcoming trip. To be honest, I didn't give it much thought --- (Had I thought about it more, I wouldn't have booked it). I booked online, the website pushed the meal plan, the pricing was confusing but seemed reasonable overall, and it suggested there would be approximately 20% savings on meals overall.

Not until after I booked it, and looked much more closely, did I realize that you only get a 20% savings, if you eat very poorly.

 

[havoc315]

I'm not sure what a "meal plan for responsible eaters" would look like. You can redeem your meal credits only for items under a certain amount of fat and/or calories?

It's really not so difficult. A meal plan that offers an entree only, no appetizers, no desserts, and no "all you can eat buffets" (which are more expensive than solo entrees anyway).

So let's start with the basic meal plan, and make that very simple modification:
Instead of 1 snack + 1 counterservice entree + 1 counterservice dessert + 1 table service entree + 1 table service dessert (or substitute buffet), offer instead:

1 snack + 1 counterservice entree + 1 table service entree, and no buffets.

If offered, at a price less than the current meal plan -- say $40 instead of $47 -- I'm willing to bet it would be a huge seller.

And yes, people might still pick the least healthy entree. I'm not taking choices away from anyone. But this meal plan would allow people who don't want to overindulge, to have a meal plan designed for their needs.

 

[TDC Nala]

They're never going to offer a plan like that. It would likely not appeal to a wide majority of guests, especially next to the existing plan that offers more selection. If you want to order like that, you DO have the option of not getting ANY dining plan and making entirely your own decisions on where to eat and what to order (a lot of us do prefer to travel that way). One doesn't need to have a dining plan to eat at WDW.

 

[Tricia1972]

They're never going to offer a plan like that. It does not appeal to a wide majority of guests, especially next to the existing plan that offers more selection. If you want to order like that, you DO have the option of not getting ANY dining plan. One doesn't need to have a dining plan to eat at WDW.

I was just replying the same thing.

My only other point is that it would be very hard to break even with the proposed Healthy Eating Plan. In a situation where you're working to break even the DDP loses the value, as has been noted several times by havoc when it's been suggested to them that you can eat healthy on the current plan and break even.

 

[havoc315]

I still maintain that healthy eating on the DDP is both possible and cost effective.

My example: A day at Epcot...

lunch at Sunshine Seasons, Rotisserie Chicken with salad and glazed carrots, fruit cup for dessert and iced tea comes to about $17

dinner at Chefs de France:
brochette de fruits de mer (scallops, mahi, mahi, and black tiger shrimp with grilled tomato and black pearl rice), salad de fruits frais (you can hold the sorbet) and iced tea comes to about $42

Snack of yogurt, fuit or juice about $3

Total for the day is $62

That's for healthy eating, regular DDP and you can see the savings is almost $20.

I don't think the problem is the DDP, though I have to agree a salad for an appetizer would be nice... it really comes down to choice... almost all restaurants offer fish, salad, fruit, etc. You have to order them!

If I'm doing a dining plan, I choose the deluxe, because I like the option of a salad and I find it much more challenging at CS to limit the carbs which I need to do as a diabetic. It works very well for me, and I save money.

YMMV

Good example of a meal that's not toooooo bad. The savings would be about $20 using 2010 pricing, about $15 using 2011 pricing. And that's using 1 of the most expensive "healthy" dishes you will find anywhere on the Disney property. Finally, the Rotisserie chicken isn't too bad, but truthfully in terms of calories and fat, it's enough for 2 people to share.

But let's look at your second point, about the salad --
The basic green salad at Chefs De France is $5.95
The fruit salad dessert is $7.25

Wouldn't it be nice (and no additional cost to Disney) to allow you to substitute the salad for a dessert?

 

[TDC Nala]

Wouldn't it be nice (and no additional cost to Disney) to allow you to substitute the salad for a dessert?

That won't solve the problem of table turnover. People don't eat salads at the end of the meal,they eat them before the meal. You get a party of two, one substitutes the salad before the entree, the other gets the dessert after the entree, and they share. Then they spend longer at the table without shelling out any extra cash. That's why you can't substitute an appetizer for your dessert on regular DDP. It has nothing to do with health concerns. You CAN substitute fruit for dessert at many restaurants though and if you ask, they MIGHT let you have some fruit salad (is the fruit salad listed as an appetizer?). That could take care of the "unhealthy" aspect.

 

[havoc315]

They're never going to offer a plan like that. It would likely not appeal to a wide majority of guests, especially next to the existing plan that offers more selection. If you want to order like that, you DO have the option of not getting ANY dining plan and making entirely your own decisions on where to eat and what to order (a lot of us do prefer to travel that way). One doesn't need to have a dining plan to eat at WDW.

I believe that such a plan would have a very wide appeal.

There was a time, not that long ago, when some restaurants offered ample non-smoking sections, and other restaurants did not. And not that long ago, the majority of people were smokers.
Should the fact that the majority of people are smokers, stop a restaurant from also providing ample facilities for the minority of non-smokers?

And yes, you don't have to get the meal plan. But the meal plan is heavily pushed by Disney. Many people, myself included, don't realize how overindulgent the meal plan is, at the time they are booking. Thus, they are essentially being ripped off.

 

[Debbie Jean]

Good example of a meal that's not toooooo bad. The savings would be about $20 using 2010 pricing, about $15 using 2011 pricing. And that's using 1 of the most expensive "healthy" dishes you will find anywhere on the Disney property. Finally, the Rotisserie chicken isn't too bad, but truthfully in terms of calories and fat, it's enough for 2 people to share.

But let's look at your second point, about the salad --
The basic green salad at Chefs De France is $5.95
The fruit salad dessert is $7.25

Wouldn't it be nice (and no additional cost to Disney) to allow you to substitute the salad for a dessert?

Well, the first thing you do is remove the skin which is all fat from the chicken.... or order the salmon. And I think you have to be sensible in terms of portion which will depend on knowing your metabolism and how active you are.

On the second point, I definitely agree it would be nice to sub the salad for the fruit... and if I the regular DDP could be tweeked to provide for this, it would be a nice enhancement... though it won't happen