Planning on dues increase under RCID change?

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dominickolas

Earning My Ears
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Hello. I just wanted to check here for planning purposes. With the proposal that Disney separate itself from existing tax laws and zoning and join into the surrounding counties, I am curious on what to expect in DVC.

There is talk that all of Orange County residents taxes will go up, but I think they will hardest go after DVC and their assessed values.

Do you feel like this is just temporary political noise? Or will dues go up in a major way going forward?
 
Hello. I just wanted to check here for planning purposes. With the proposal that Disney separate itself from existing tax laws and zoning and join into the surrounding counties, I am curious on what to expect in DVC.

There is talk that all of Orange County residents taxes will go up, but I think they will hardest go after DVC and their assessed values.

Do you feel like this is just temporary political noise? Or will dues go up in a major way going forward?
First, it’s no longer a “proposal”.
That said, I have read everything I can get my hands on (which isn’t a huge amount), and it truly depends on who is being quoted. So the answer is…. I’m not sure anyone knows,,,,, yet.

One thing is certain, and that is they can’t single out a higher tax rate for Disney properties over other properties in Orange County. It’s not clear to me however about other taxes such as business taxes. I suppose that sort of thing could affect other goods & services.

Honestly, I’m not sure many people here truly understand the relationship between FL and RCID.
 
Hello. I just wanted to check here for planning purposes. With the proposal that Disney separate itself from existing tax laws and zoning and join into the surrounding counties, I am curious on what to expect in DVC.

There is talk that all of Orange County residents taxes will go up, but I think they will hardest go after DVC and their assessed values.

Do you feel like this is just temporary political noise? Or will dues go up in a major way going forward?
Plan for the worst and hope for the best.
 

There is a lot of time between now and when this law takes effect.

I think there is a good chance that before then, a new special district will be created with more oversight for certain things but other things will remain status quo.

14 months is a long time to get the details ironed out. But, as mentioned, they can’t just bill Disney and DVC owners for everything when this is dissolved.

And, just to remind everyone, please do not go down the road as why this happened and discuss political or non political motives that may or may not have been involved.
 
According to the Orange County tax collector, who is looking into this a great deal and spoke earlier today, he's hopeful a resolution can be found before next year to cover approximately $163 million in tax shortfall should this just be rescinded. If not, the residents of the county are going to be impacted by the change. Something I have not heard yet, though, is how it might also impact Osceola County, since some of the Disney parks, resorts, and DVC are also in that county - maybe there's no impact to them, but that seems unlikely. But I've only actually read/heard about Orange.
 
Very strange how abruptly this all happened. I have no horse in this race. Unfortunately there's separate realities and no one can even agree on facts anymore. It doesn't take effect for a year, so hopefully there will be some clarity before. That's if it ever takes effect, I'm sure its going to be litigated.

The bill is very short it's 2 paragraphs, https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/4C/BillText/er/HTML

(23) Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2), any independent special
24 district established by a special act prior to the date of
25 ratification of the Florida Constitution on November 5, 1968,
26 and which was not reestablished, re-ratified, or otherwise
27 reconstituted by a special act or general law after November 5,
28 1968, is dissolved effective June 1, 2023. An independent
29 special district affected by this subsection may be
30 reestablished on or after June 1
, 2023, pursuant to the
31 requirements and limitations of this chapter.
32 Section 2. This act shall take effect July 1, 2022.

They basically state they can just reestablish a similar district in the bill.

I've read very little based on fact with sources regarding questions like, does RCID have to vote to dissolve itself, will County taxes will go up, does the County have to absorb debt, will Disney pay more etc. It's all opposing realities depending on who is speaking. Super annoying.
 
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Hello. I just wanted to check here for planning purposes. With the proposal that Disney separate itself from existing tax laws and zoning and join into the surrounding counties, I am curious on what to expect in DVC.

There is talk that all of Orange County residents taxes will go up, but I think they will hardest go after DVC and their assessed values.

Do you feel like this is just temporary political noise? Or will dues go up in a major way going forward?
I've been reading on this (hasn't everyone) and the general thought is it's more likely dues would go down.

Other thought is that it will most likely not happen anyway.
 
Very strange how abruptly this all happened. I have no horse in this race. Unfortunately there's separate realities and no one can even agree on facts anymore. It doesn't take effect for a year, so hopefully there will be some clarity before. That's if it ever takes effect, I'm sure its going to be litigated.

The bill is very short it's 2 paragraphs, https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/4C/BillText/er/HTML

(23) Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2), any independent special
24 district established by a special act prior to the date of
25 ratification of the Florida Constitution on November 5, 1968,
26 and which was not reestablished, re-ratified, or otherwise
27 reconstituted by a special act or general law after November 5,
28 1968, is dissolved effective June 1, 2023. An independent
29 special district affected by this subsection may be
30 reestablished on or after June 1
, 2023, pursuant to the
31 requirements and limitations of this chapter.
32 Section 2. This act shall take effect July 1, 2022.

They basically state they can just reestablish a similar district in the bill.

I've read very little based on fact with sources regarding questions like, does RCID have to vote to dissolve itself, will County taxes will go up, does the County have to absorb debt, will Disney pay more etc. It's all opposing realities depending on who is speaking. Super annoying.

Some of what I have read also indicated that there were things within the current situation that simply didn’t need to be there any more and this will give them a way to update it based on today.

So, I definitely think we will see another type of district created that balances things out a bit more.
 
It may go up a little, I would imagine Disney could maintain the infrastructure more efficiently than the County. If it's more expensive to run, they will pass it on to their customers.
 
Yeah, I almost wish I did that post as a poll because it is so up in the air. It feels like guessing dates on when a new resort will start selling.

I guess it could go down if dues were paying for things that will know be divided by county residents.

It could go up, if taxes just rise or expenses that were not there before rise out of hand.

Or this is just a moment in time where everyone is just too heated. And things may settle to status quo because that may be more practical or politically beneficial to both sides.

I guess it's wait and see.
 
According to the Orange County tax collector, who is looking into this a great deal and spoke earlier today, he's hopeful a resolution can be found before next year to cover approximately $163 million in tax shortfall should this just be rescinded. If not, the residents of the county are going to be impacted by the change. Something I have not heard yet, though, is how it might also impact Osceola County, since some of the Disney parks, resorts, and DVC are also in that county - maybe there's no impact to them, but that seems unlikely. But I've only actually read/heard about Orange.
$163m is roughly the amount Disney and other on-property owners pay to RCID in total. It's not Orange County's share. Orange and Osceola Counties, between the two of them, would be picking up an operating budget around that size, at least in theory. But it's likely a wash. The taxes that the counties would need to raise would be "offset" by taxes that RCID itself is no longer collecting.
 
Very strange how abruptly this all happened. I have no horse in this race. Unfortunately there's separate realities and no one can even agree on facts anymore. It doesn't take effect for a year, so hopefully there will be some clarity before. That's if it ever takes effect, I'm sure its going to be litigated.
I think it's abrupt because it's a lot of posturing and both sides know it's unlikely to ever come to much. It will absolutely be litigated if they dont come to some settlement first. It's not even clear if the legislature has the authority to dissolve it without the residents and businesses voting on it.

But it's had the desired effect of a bunch of headlines and social media posts blaring how FL is showing Disney who's boss by voting to dissolve it.
 
My money is on Disney putting a pause on the lake Nona hq and relocation of CA jobs

those jobs were to be a huge win for fl and Orlando real estate prices were shooting up. If Disney cancels the lake Nona campus that would be pretty devastating IMO
 
Very strange how abruptly this all happened. I have no horse in this race. Unfortunately there's separate realities and no one can even agree on facts anymore. It doesn't take effect for a year, so hopefully there will be some clarity before. That's if it ever takes effect, I'm sure its going to be litigated.

The bill is very short it's 2 paragraphs, https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/4C/BillText/er/HTML

(23) Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2), any independent special
24 district established by a special act prior to the date of
25 ratification of the Florida Constitution on November 5, 1968,
26 and which was not reestablished, re-ratified, or otherwise
27 reconstituted by a special act or general law after November 5,
28 1968, is dissolved effective June 1, 2023. An independent
29 special district affected by this subsection may be
30 reestablished on or after June 1
, 2023, pursuant to the
31 requirements and limitations of this chapter.
32 Section 2. This act shall take effect July 1, 2022.

They basically state they can just reestablish a similar district in the bill.

I've read very little based on fact with sources regarding questions like, does RCID have to vote to dissolve itself, will County taxes will go up, does the County have to absorb debt, will Disney pay more etc. It's all opposing realities depending on who is speaking. Super annoying.
Does Disney (or the RCD have to vote to dissolve itself? (In other words, the Legislature passing the bill was just a preliminary step?) No. The first part of your quote ... "Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2) ... that statute -- the 189.072(2) is the one that says if the Legislature wants to dissolve the special district then the majority of the landowners (Disney) has to vote to approve it. However, the new bill says Notwithstanding that statute -- meaning it defeats that requirement. So, neither Disney nor the RCID get to vote and the dissolution is effective when the dates in the statute are met -- June 1, 2023.

Will the County taxes go up? Most likely not. In fact, some analysts say they might go down. The reporters were asking questions of the government officials about taking on a billion dollars in bonds -- WITHOUT NEW REVENUE. Well, of course, if that was the case, then some obligations of the Counties -- possibly property taxes -- would have to go up. But, the assumption of the functions of the RCID will not be without new sources of revenue. That was a disingenuous question by a reporter who wanted to raise scary scenarios. It was far from the reality of what will happen.

Will the County have to absorb the debt? Florida Statutes 189.072(4) states: (4) DEBTS AND ASSETS.—Financial allocations of the assets and indebtedness of a dissolved independent special district shall be pursuant to s. 189.076. Let's go see what that statute says.

189.076 Financial allocations.—
(1) The government formed by merger of existing special districts shall assume all indebtedness of, and receive title to all property owned by, the preexisting special districts. The proposed charter shall provide for the determination of the proper allocation of the indebtedness so assumed and the manner in which said debt shall be retired.
(2) Unless otherwise provided by law or ordinance, the dissolution of a special district government shall transfer the title to all property owned by the preexisting special district government to the local general-purpose government, which shall also assume all indebtedness of the preexisting special district.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to community development districts established pursuant to chapter 190 or to water management districts created and operated pursuant to chapter 373.

Without getting into the weeds in explanations, the debts and obligations are counter-balanced by also giving them the appropriate assets and streams of income. Disney will have to pay for all the utilities they use, the debt service on the bonds and all sorts of things. Some analysis say Disney has been intentionally short-falling the RCID several million a year. That would not be allowed to continue. Some analysts say Disney has likely been avoiding tens of millions of costs per year by being able to govern themselves in these matters. Could be. There will now be another layer of administration and oversight added, but this is the case for all the other similar businesses too. They can operate profitably, so Disney can too.

You made a good point that reading these forums it appears the answers to your questions are all over the place, depending on who is posting. Listen most closely to the ones who are giving you the citations to the statutes and authority. Otherwise, they might be somebody just quoting themselves or a reporter who wasn't informed and educated enough to ask the right questions. Bottom line: the sky is not falling. Disney is now silent to the public because they know that they have a lot of work to do with government officials to work on a smooth transition. They are going to have to do business with the government now. They are good businessmen. They will do it and both sides will get back on the same friendly side again. This is just a tempest in a teapot when viewed from 30,000 feet. Nothing to worry about.
 
My money is on Disney putting a pause on the lake Nona hq and relocation of CA jobs

those jobs were to be a huge win for fl and Orlando real estate prices were shooting up. If Disney cancels the lake Nona campus that would be pretty devastating IMO
Huge numbers of people have already relocated, quit, or transferred to a corporate or DMED job. There's no huge contingent of DPEP employees left clamoring to stay in California.
 
Does Disney (or the RCD have to vote to dissolve itself? (In other words, the Legislature passing the bill was just a preliminary step?) No. The first part of your quote ... "Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2) ... that statute -- the 189.072(2) is the one that says if the Legislature wants to dissolve the special district then the majority of the landowners (Disney) has to vote to approve it. However, the new bill says Notwithstanding that statute -- meaning it defeats that requirement. So, neither Disney nor the RCID get to vote and the dissolution is effective when the dates in the statute are met -- June 1, 2023.

Will the County taxes go up? Most likely not. In fact, some analysts say they might go down. The reporters were asking questions of the government officials about taking on a billion dollars in bonds -- WITHOUT NEW REVENUE. Well, of course, if that was the case, then some obligations of the Counties -- possibly property taxes -- would have to go up. But, the assumption of the functions of the RCID will not be without new sources of revenue. That was a disingenuous question by a reporter who wanted to raise scary scenarios. It was far from the reality of what will happen.

Will the County have to absorb the debt? Florida Statutes 189.072(4) states: (4) DEBTS AND ASSETS.—Financial allocations of the assets and indebtedness of a dissolved independent special district shall be pursuant to s. 189.076. Let's go see what that statute says.

189.076 Financial allocations.—
(1) The government formed by merger of existing special districts shall assume all indebtedness of, and receive title to all property owned by, the preexisting special districts. The proposed charter shall provide for the determination of the proper allocation of the indebtedness so assumed and the manner in which said debt shall be retired.
(2) Unless otherwise provided by law or ordinance, the dissolution of a special district government shall transfer the title to all property owned by the preexisting special district government to the local general-purpose government, which shall also assume all indebtedness of the preexisting special district.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to community development districts established pursuant to chapter 190 or to water management districts created and operated pursuant to chapter 373.

Without getting into the weeds in explanations, the debts and obligations are counter-balanced by also giving them the appropriate assets and streams of income. Disney will have to pay for all the utilities they use, the debt service on the bonds and all sorts of things. Some analysis say Disney has been intentionally short-falling the RCID several million a year. That would not be allowed to continue. Some analysts say Disney has likely been avoiding tens of millions of costs per year by being able to govern themselves in these matters. Could be. There will now be another layer of administration and oversight added, but this is the case for all the other similar businesses too. They can operate profitably, so Disney can too.

You made a good point that reading these forums it appears the answers to your questions are all over the place, depending on who is posting. Listen most closely to the ones who are giving you the citations to the statutes and authority. Otherwise, they might be somebody just quoting themselves or a reporter who wasn't informed and educated enough to ask the right questions. Bottom line: the sky is not falling. Disney is now silent to the public because they know that they have a lot of work to do with government officials to work on a smooth transition. They are going to have to do business with the government now. They are good businessmen. They will do it and both sides will get back on the same friendly side again. This is just a tempest in a teapot when viewed from 30,000 feet. Nothing to worry about.
Very thorough.

Said more simply... Disney will likely still pay in the ballpark of what they've always paid, they just might make the checks out to a new payee.
 
Does Disney (or the RCD have to vote to dissolve itself? (In other words, the Legislature passing the bill was just a preliminary step?) No. The first part of your quote ... "Notwithstanding s. 189.072(2) ... that statute -- the 189.072(2) is the one that says if the Legislature wants to dissolve the special district then the majority of the landowners (Disney) has to vote to approve it. However, the new bill says Notwithstanding that statute -- meaning it defeats that requirement. So, neither Disney nor the RCID get to vote and the dissolution is effective when the dates in the statute are met -- June 1, 2023.

Will the County taxes go up? Most likely not. In fact, some analysts say they might go down. The reporters were asking questions of the government officials about taking on a billion dollars in bonds -- WITHOUT NEW REVENUE. Well, of course, if that was the case, then some obligations of the Counties -- possibly property taxes -- would have to go up. But, the assumption of the functions of the RCID will not be without new sources of revenue. That was a disingenuous question by a reporter who wanted to raise scary scenarios. It was far from the reality of what will happen.

Will the County have to absorb the debt? Florida Statutes 189.072(4) states: (4) DEBTS AND ASSETS.—Financial allocations of the assets and indebtedness of a dissolved independent special district shall be pursuant to s. 189.076. Let's go see what that statute says.

189.076 Financial allocations.—
(1) The government formed by merger of existing special districts shall assume all indebtedness of, and receive title to all property owned by, the preexisting special districts. The proposed charter shall provide for the determination of the proper allocation of the indebtedness so assumed and the manner in which said debt shall be retired.
(2) Unless otherwise provided by law or ordinance, the dissolution of a special district government shall transfer the title to all property owned by the preexisting special district government to the local general-purpose government, which shall also assume all indebtedness of the preexisting special district.
(3) The provisions of this section shall not apply to community development districts established pursuant to chapter 190 or to water management districts created and operated pursuant to chapter 373.

Without getting into the weeds in explanations, the debts and obligations are counter-balanced by also giving them the appropriate assets and streams of income. Disney will have to pay for all the utilities they use, the debt service on the bonds and all sorts of things. Some analysis say Disney has been intentionally short-falling the RCID several million a year. That would not be allowed to continue. Some analysts say Disney has likely been avoiding tens of millions of costs per year by being able to govern themselves in these matters. Could be. There will now be another layer of administration and oversight added, but this is the case for all the other similar businesses too. They can operate profitably, so Disney can too.

You made a good point that reading these forums it appears the answers to your questions are all over the place, depending on who is posting. Listen most closely to the ones who are giving you the citations to the statutes and authority. Otherwise, they might be somebody just quoting themselves or a reporter who wasn't informed and educated enough to ask the right questions. Bottom line: the sky is not falling. Disney is now silent to the public because they know that they have a lot of work to do with government officials to work on a smooth transition. They are going to have to do business with the government now. They are good businessmen. They will do it and both sides will get back on the same friendly side again. This is just a tempest in a teapot when viewed from 30,000 feet. Nothing to worry about.
Definitely a specific slant to this as I feel like I have read some of the same conclusions in various articles ... but agree on the warning about "listening more closely to the ones that are providing citations" [and representing certain points of view in summary]
 
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