Pit-Bull's...friend or foe?

[jrmasm]

Friend

 

[luvsJack]

https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/171115a.aspx

In this article from the American Veternairy Association, it says that the CDC stopped keeping dog breed data for dog bites because of the difficulty in determining breed. Much of what people call a pit bull is not actually a pit bull. And so most data should be questioned for that reason.


The worst dog attack that I have personally seen the results of was ex-h’s niece. She was 3 at the time. Playing outside at her grandparent’s home with other kids. A mixed breed hound that they owned for a long time suddenly attacked her. Luckily she had on a thick coat with a hood or the dog would have killed her. No bull dog whatsoever in that dog.

 

[Jennasis]

Definitely foe...I mean, just look at him.

 

[cobright]

You make some very important points. Should we take a closer look at your stats? I just know from experience that studies can often be skewed by any number of factors that go into the study sample, the questions, where and how the information is gathered. Hey, you could definitely be right, and maybe as responsible dog owners we should all take a closer look at the data out there. I just think there may be information to the contrary, and bottom line...it will still be up to the potential owner to make the most informed decision possible.

This was a subject I did a paper on for a public policy class back in 2010 (poli-sci degree of sorts). I know there is a website called dogsbite or something like that that compiles statistics on pit bull attacks. I avoided this website because it has a stated goal of increased breed regulation and because it is widely perceived as biased by pro-pit bull activists and other lovers of the breed.

• The percentage of pet dogs being pitbulls comes from an extrapolation of AKC data. I can't find the primary source but the number is widely accepted and where not accepted a similar study showing that they make up 12% is generally used. It comes up, even on very pro-pit websites like https://www.caninejournal.com/pit-bull-facts/
• Dogbite fatalities by breed info comes from a CDC conducted study published by Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association using data collected by the US Humane Society. Some may quibble about results they don't like but the study was peer reviewed and I think it's pretty sound. https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/javma_000915_fatalattacks.pdf
• Evidence that pits pose a special challenge comes from one of the most pro-pit sources I can find, the Pit Bull Rescue Center. They advise every pit bull trainer should have a 'break stick' to use to pry open the dogs jaws if it locks onto someone or another animal. They specifically caution, "Do not attempt to use a break stick on other dog breeds." http://www.pbrc.net/breaksticks.html
• There is a common criticism these studies that pit bulls are often mis-identified. When I was doing this paper I went ahead and searched nation wide news archives for dogbite fatalities and threw out every instance where the dogs breed was not specified by the dog's owner. The percentage of fatal dog bites caused by pits in this grouping actually went up a little bit.

Personally, I'm against breed specific legislation in most cases. I don't think it's the right tool for this job. I think that keeping a dog unlicensed needs to be a severe criminal violation. I think that every dog owner should carry a million dollar Public Liability policy. Insurance adjusters are famously good at determine actual risk tables and where the risk of dog bite is low, premiums will be low.

A less popular idea ... If I could make it happen I would mandate spay and neuter of all pit bulls and criminalize breeding them. They are a problematic breed, bred for another time. There is no trait they possess that is not found in other dogs other than being truly effective killers (in dog terms this is called gameness and means determination to get and kill an animal. Pit Bulls are rated at the top.) Let the breed sunset, and maybe we can work on bringing the Turnspit dog back. Again, I have nothing personal against the breed. As it turns out, I'm allergic to dogs and the closes I've ever been to being killed by one was caused by my corgi in the form of an allergy attack. There is a reason this breed is favored by dog fighters, if it were no more dangerous than any other similar sized breed we would see other breeds in the ring when we bust these fights up. Other than Rots, fighting dogs are almost exclusively pits.

 

[LSUmiss]

I used to think as some have pointed out that bad owner=bad dog, until we had an incident with our dog. I know this thread is about pit bulls, but our experience highlights how some breeds really can be more dangerous than others.

We got an Akita puppy when he was 12 weeks old. We knew they could be aggressive, but we figured if we raised him correctly it would be fine. We took him to training, loved him, and he slept most nights at the foot of our daughters bed. We also had an older dachshund. The two adored each other. About 2 years later, the dachshund went to eat out of the Akita's bowl, like she's done probably 100 times before. Normally the Akita would playfully nudge the dachshund from her bowl. This time, the Akita went absolutely nuts on the other dog. Threw her around like a rag doll. Wife quickly scooped up the kids and got out of the house when the Akita would not respond or stop. When she finally let go I went to pick up the little dog and she growled at me. That's when we learned that nature>nurture. We still shudder at the thought of what might of happened had our children gone towards his bowl. We gave him to a rescue and they fully understood. The little dog was fine after some stitches and recovery.

We now have a golden retriever.

That’s so awful. Thankfully your little dog was ok. I have a doxie food bowl nudger too. Luckily he does it to a golden retriever so there is no issue. The Golden just leaves & lets the doxie eat his food! I was so scared your story wasn’t going to end well!! In all my experience working in vet med, I think Akitas were the absolute worst. They terrified me.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

In a previous job, I spent 4 years going to 2 to 3 homes a day, six days a week. I like dogs. They seem to love me. Everytime I entered a home, the dogs & cats would come up to me for attention. In all that time, I had one dog that injured me. It happened to be the only pit bull I encountered that wasn't contained. His owner said, "Oh look, he likes you." He liked me so much that he left deep bite marks & long scratches on my legs. Fortunately, my DH happened to be there & fought him long enough for his owner to get this dog that liked me so much off of me. I had bruises for a couple of weeks. She was lucky that I'm not a sue happy person & I like dogs. I could have gone straight to the ER with bloody legs & caused her serious problems, including having the attacking dog put down. The woman obviously didn't see the harm her dog could cause. The fact is a small dog with blunt teeth nipping at your ankles can't cause the amount of damage a dog with strong jaws & sharp teeth can.

I really hope I'm the only person that dog "liked" that much. I'd feel horrible, if I found out he did the same thing to a child & I could have prevented it. At the time, I didn't want the dog harmed.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

Foe. Shelters are full of pit bulls. There must be a reason why.

I'm in favor of shelters euthanizing all pit bulls immediately upon arrival.

 

[PrincessBelle39]

Absolutely a friend. You can't generalise. Unfortunately given the appearance and strength that they have, they have been attractive dogs to those looking for that stereotype. I worked as a vet nurse for several years and probably the most vicious dog I ever saw there was a poodle. We have an Amstaff. There is no sweeter gentler dog than him.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I don’t have one & would never trust one in my home. Might be an unfair stereotype, but the anecdotal evidence has me convinced enough.

...to me, it’s like owning a tiger. If you raise it from a cub & treat it right, you would probably never have a problem with it. BUT, if something went wrong & the tiger decided to attack, it would be so powerful it could easily kill someone...

Not for me. Too much responsibility. I think many breeds are unpredictable. But when they are unpredictable, they're deadly. Not that they're the only ones...

This is pretty much how I feel as well. - I know people who have pit bulls, and I've petted them when their owners said it was OK, but I wouldn't take on the responsibility of owning one myself, nor would I leave little kids near one.

I do think behavior is a combination of nature and nurture, but I worry about breeding overcoming training when a dog is stressed or ill (and the humans don't realize it yet). - And I agree that that can happen with any dog, but because these are so powerful, the end result is different.

I would not be a fan of euthanizing existing dogs just because of their breed, but think I would be a fan of spaying/neutering so the breed disappears naturally.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

I generally like all animals, but I am not a fan of pit bulls. I just base that opinion on the only experience I have had with a pit bull. Many years ago, we had a neighbor who kept one tied in their yard (yea that is quite possibly part of the problem). That dog would bark and growl at me any time it saw me. It was vicious. It would bark and be at the end of its chain every time you would roll the garbage to the alley.

 

[maxiesmom]

Depends on how they were raised and treated. I had a Pit bull jump the fence and bite one of my dogs. I've also known Pit Bulls that were total sweethearts.

Just like with any dog you need to also know the breed and know if you have what it takes to be in charge. Some breeds are easier led than others.

 

[ThistleMae]

We rescued a lab/pit mix from our local shelter. She has been such an amazing dog that we decided to rescue a senior pit from a rescue group in town that got him the morning he was scheduled to be put to sleep. He is amazing. My DD8 (now 10) picked him out and they immediately bonded. He is her best friend and will do anything she wants. He has worn butterfly wings, “danced”, and listened to countless stories. He’s actually a big baby who has to have a stuffed animal to lay with him at all times. He loves everyone who visits. Every morning the dogs go with me to drop my daughter off and they get tons of pets from everyone. Never had an issue.
My daughter was, however, bit in the face by a small dog. Thankfully, she closed her eye and it tore the meat around the eye.
My parents were very worried when we got our pit, just based on what they had seen on the news and read in the papers. He is now their big grand dog that they adore.

Such a wonderful positive story. And you saved him from his death. Thank you for sharing.

 

[ThistleMae]

My answer is "It depends"

It depends on the owner. It depends if the owner has taken the responsibility to properly train the dog. For every dangerous dog there is an irresponsible owner.

I am a dog training class right now. It's clear the Pit needs this training, it's also clear that none of us in the class fully trust the dog. He's massive and strong, we are working our way up to off leash training and at this point I will not let my dog off leash around him.

Pit's are not the only "dangerous" dog out there and Campgrounds, HOA's, Cities and Insurance Companies have rules for a reason. While a Chihuahua probably bites a whole lot more, a Pit can do a lot more damage.

You know I think your right about small dogs biting more people but Pit's doing more damage. I never really thought about it before but when I see any dog, I always ask if it's okay to approach and to pet.

 

[ThistleMae]

In the late 60s/early 70s, we had a pit bull, but few people knew of their bad reputation then. We had it from the time it was a little puppy and it was our pet. It was indeed loyal and seemed loving, for the years we had it. We also had cows and the dog was brought up around them.

One day, a cow was just munching on some grass and the dog snapped. No provocation. It attacked the cow and would not let go. My father tried everything, but finally had to beat it to get it off. The cow died.

My father was terribly shaken because this dog he loved had shown a previously unseen side and now he feared for the safety of the children. The dog was gone at some point. No idea what happened to it, but we couldn’t keep it. My father couldn’t even talk about it.

There used to be a member here who went nuts on me when I posted this story and made up every excuse in the world as to why the attack wasn’t the dog’s fault. But it was. Period. And it’s a story I’ve heard all too many times since. A pit bull, raised with affection and love, snaps and viciously attacks. Until then, the owner would’ve sworn it was a sweetheart.

Well, they are. Until they aren’t. And that’s the problem. I will never be around one again.

Someone else in here posted a similar story. Very scary. It's hard to understand how this kind of thing can just happen. Usually past behavior, best predicts future behavior. This does make me have second thoughts about my opinion.

 

[ThistleMae]

How dangerous a dog is is dependent upon far far more things than just breeding. How is it treated? How is it trained? Various other factors. Those things will go far in determining how dangerous a particular dog is. You can turn even the nicest breeds into a danger. There isn't any evidence that Pit Bulls on the whole are a bigger danger than other breeds. But yeah, a lot of them are used in illegal fights and a lot of them are used by drug dealers who have made a lot of pit bulls very dangerous.

From the responses in here, many folks would disagree with this perspective. I've always been of similar mind set but a couple of the stories in here has made me think on it a bit more.

 

[ThistleMae]

https://www.avma.org/news/javmanews/pages/171115a.aspx

In this article from the American Veternairy Association, it says that the CDC stopped keeping dog breed data for dog bites because of the difficulty in determining breed. Much of what people call a pit bull is not actually a pit bull. And so most data should be questioned for that reason.


The worst dog attack that I have personally seen the results of was ex-h’s niece. She was 3 at the time. Playing outside at her grandparent’s home with other kids. A mixed breed hound that they owned for a long time suddenly attacked her. Luckily she had on a thick coat with a hood or the dog would have killed her. No bull dog whatsoever in that dog.

Ah...thank you for posting this on statistics. It does make us think more on how data is gathered. And such random attacks by any breed is certainly perplexing.

 

[Klayfish]

Foe. Shelters are full of pit bulls. There must be a reason why.

I'm in favor of shelters euthanizing all pit bulls immediately upon arrival.

I'm going to assume you're joking.

Many breeds of dog can "snap" and attack a person or animal. It just so happens that pit bulls are very strong and have powerful jaws, so when they attack it can be quite dangerous. They are very loyal and very protective dogs, and breeds that have those senses fiercely can mistakenly think they need to defend their "family". DS11 got attacked by a neighbors' German Sheppard unprovoked. The dog was even on a leash and being walked and decided to attack my son, we had to take him to urgent care for the wounds on his hand. The owners are lucky I wasn't there to witness it, there would have been one less German Sheppard walking around this planet. However, I don't think that means Germans are dangerous animals...in fact one of our puppies, which we adopted after this incident, has a lot of German Sheppard in her.

It's humans who give pit bulls their bad reputation. Both by the way they are treated (fighting) and then perpetuating the myth.

 

[ThistleMae]

Definitely foe...I mean, just look at him.

Yeah..."they say" SIDE SMILES are often a sign of aggression, no matter what the breed!

 

[tvguy]

Pit bulls are listed as the most frequent dog to be involved in a biting incident. And they generate the most homeowners insurance claims. But maybe if someone is bitten by a pit bull they are more likely to report it or file a claim?
They are also the majority of the dogs up for adoption at our SPCA, and breed most likely to be returned because an adoption didn't work out.

 

[Scifidiner]

Friend
bad owners, especially bad breeders are the foe.