Pete's rants for 8/05/09

[soupy11]

Virtually none of the restaurants at which I choose to dine are less expensive on Tuesday (or Monday, Wednesday, Thursday etc).

I dine out frequently and dont know where these places are located.

An example I've talked about frequently....I love the Celebration Town Tavern. They have one menu thats the same from opening until closing Monday through Sunday.

Here in our little town, we have definite deals through the week for almost every place....in essence we pay rack rate on weekends. Subtle difference but we are paying a premium to eat out on a saturday night. Disney is so busy now that they can reverse this and charge whatever they want. So many people are going to the parks anyways, that there will always be someone willing to pay. Sad but true.

 

[Brian Noble]

The more I think about it, the more I suspect this move was driven by the current economic conditions, rather than ignorant of them.

Here's what we know so far about 2009: attendance is flat, but guest spending is down. So, people are still coming, but they are spending less. Disney's challenge is to get more of its guests' money when they are in the parks and staying in the resorts.

Here's what we also know: during "busy" seasons, the restaurants are jam-packed full. And, many of those guests are on the dining plan, which is effectively giving them a discount, leaving walk-up guests shut out. And, presumably, those walk-up guests are less likely to be on the plan, because plan guests know they have credits that are "use 'em or lose 'em."

Disney's bet then, is this: by making the plan less attractive when demand for the resaurants outstrips supply, fewer guests will buy the plan. If the restaurants are still full (and that might be a big if) then Disney wins two ways---(1) the fraction of "menu-price" guests vs. "discount" guests goes up, and (2) the discount offered is less generous. So, Disney gets more money out of the guests already coming to the parks.

So, the question is: will the restaurants still be full? That's a pretty interesting question, because part of the reason some of the "lesser" restaurants were full is because DDP guests (particularly those that did not plan ahead) had to eat somewhere, and they've already paid for it.

But, I suspect this won't materially affect attendance---I haven't heard many people say they aren't coming back because of this, just that they aren't getting the plan because of this. And, "I"m not getting the plan again" might be exactly what Disney wants.

 

[Allison]

Right, they are offering some discounts off their regular prices to draw in customers on slow days. Ok, I get that. How is this the same as Disney who is raising their regular prices during busy times?

It's the same concept. The prices are lower during less busy times and more expensive during busier times. It's the spin that's put on it. Are you charging a premium for busy times or offering a discount during slower times? The results are intended to be the same but the perception is much different.

I'm not saying I agree with the pricing or I don't agree. I know I don't plan to purchase the dining plan at that price. On all of our trips, I've only purchased it once anyway. It hasn't been the best decision for us in the past.

 

[wdwowner]

...I've checked, there is no other Disney site as large or as busy as this one. If Pete decided to make this a Universal site tomorrow, Disney would be begging him to change it back, rants and all.

This is where you are wrong. If your grocery store goes out of business will you stop shopping for groceries? No, you will just shop at the next closest store.

If WDWInfo, DISBoards and Dreams Unlimitied go out of business, do you think everyone will just stop going to WDW and Disney sites? No, they will just move along to the next community, the next travel agent or create their own.

Life does not stop, it just moves to the next best thing.

 

[aspen37]

The more I think about it, the more I suspect this move was driven by the current economic conditions, rather than ignorant of them.

Here's what we know so far about 2009: attendance is flat, but guest spending is down. So, people are still coming, but they are spending less. Disney's challenge is to get more of its guests' money when they are in the parks and staying in the resorts.

Here's what we also know: during "busy" seasons, the restaurants are jam-packed full. And, many of those guests are on the dining plan, which is effectively giving them a discount, leaving walk-up guests shut out. And, presumably, those walk-up guests are less likely to be on the plan, because plan guests know they have credits that are "use 'em or lose 'em."

Disney's bet then, is this: by making the plan less attractive when demand for the resaurants outstrips supply, fewer guests will buy the plan. If the restaurants are still full (and that might be a big if) then Disney wins two ways---(1) the fraction of "menu-price" guests vs. "discount" guests goes up, and (2) the discount offered is less generous. So, Disney gets more money out of the guests already coming to the parks.

So, the question is: will the restaurants still be full? That's a pretty interesting question, because part of the reason some of the "lesser" restaurants were full is because DDP guests (particularly those that did not plan ahead) had to eat somewhere, and they've already paid for it.

But, I suspect this won't materially affect attendance---I haven't heard many people say they aren't coming back because of this, just that they aren't getting the plan because of this. And, "I"m not getting the plan again" might be exactly what Disney wants.

I agree with you. I think they want to get ride of the dining plan. If people don't get the dining plan (I'm one of those people) than they can say not enough people are using it so good bye dining plan.

 

[Allison]

And, "I"m not getting the plan again" might be exactly what Disney wants.

I have contemplated the same thing.

 

[Brian Noble]

To be fair, I might be so blase about it because I've never bought the plan---not even in the first year when tip and appetizers were included. We tend to not quite eat one TS meal per night on a typical trip. On a seven night stay, we might eat anywhere from 4-6 TS meals. And, the more we eat, the more likely some of them are "cheap" meals---character breakfasts, dinner at the Plaza, lunch at either Sci Fi or 50s Prime Time, etc. Not so much because we're trying to save money (we don't really have a "budget" on vacation), that's just what we like to do during a Disney trip.

When we just go and follow our noses, eating what we want when we want, we've *never* spent as much as the dining plan would have cost. True, if we'd bought the plan, and then used it as intended, we would have "saved" money, but only compared to what those Plan meals would have cost---not compared to what we normally would have spent.

If our "normal" dining habits were a lot different (a nice sit-down dinner every night) then I might feel a lot differently about the new pricing.

I think they want to get ride of the dining plan.

I don't think they want to get rid of it. But, I do think they want to make it less popular, *and* they want to keep the guests who think of it as "a convenience" while shedding some of the guests who think of it as "a value".

 

[WaltD4Me]

This is where you are wrong. If your grocery store goes out of business will you stop shopping for groceries? No, you will just shop at the next closest store.

If WDWInfo, DISBoards and Dreams Unlimitied go out of business, do you think everyone will just stop going to WDW and Disney sites? No, they will just move along to the next community, the next travel agent or create their own.

Life does not stop, it just moves to the next best thing.

I didn't say anything about DISboards and Dreams Unlimited going out of business. I said if they switched from a Disney board to a Universal board. Of course many would continue to go to Disney and find other Disney sites, but if the DIS, Pete and his very large following starting promoting Universal and offering the discounts there instead of Disney, there are people who would follow. I doubt DCL would be too thrilled about 613 cancelled cruises this December. DIS and DU drive business to Disney period.

I came to the DIS in 2003 looking to plan a large family trip for December of 2004. Specifically because of the DIS and the information I found here, I went on another trip in May of 2005, I can very confidently say that trip 5 months after the large family trip wouldn't have happened if it weren't for the DIS. They kept me interested, informed and motivated. I learned things that made it possible for me to go again and again. The DIS kept me excited about Disney, which went a long way in keeping me going to Disney.

If my favorite hair salon goes out of business, yes, I will find somwhere else to get my hair cut. But if my favorite hair salon stops selling my favorite hair care product because the quality of the product has gone down and the price has gone way up, I would probably take their recommendation in trying the other product they are carrying instead.

 

[Brian Noble]

If Pete started promoting Universal over Disney, the average DISer would think he'd lost his mind.

Your screen name is WaltD4Me. It's going to take more than Pete's recommendation to get you to change it to IOA4Ever.

 

[BriarRosie]

While I certainly agree with Pete's comments concerning the increase in tix prices and the dining plan, I think it's important to distinguish between the two increases. Guests HAVE to buy tickets as part of their Disney vacation, but they don't have to purchase the dining plan. Thus, I would consider any tix price increases fair game for criticism, but Disney is well within their right to create seasonal pricing on an elective part (dining) of a MYW package. I don't disagree with Pete that the increase means that the dining option isn't worth it, but ultimately it's up to guests to determine whether they want to make the dining plan worth it. If guests do the math (which they should) and it doesn't work in their favor, then they shouldn't buy it!

Still a Pete fan, though!

I understand what you're saying, I think. Pre-2005, what did everyone do for their meals? Did most people eat counter service, with maybe one or two full service meals during the trips? Maybe a character meal? I could believe that most people had counter service meals mostly. Or they did what I did. If I wanted a table service meal, more often than not, I'd pick lunch, since it was cheaper than dinner. The signature restaurants didn't serve lunch, so sometimes I'd choose a dinner at those places.

I do not use the DDP, and I never wanted to. It never suited me. But a friend of mine pointed out to me that the original dining plan appeared to be offered as a "loss leader". I'm sure Disney was losing money when appetizers and gratuities were included. Disney adjusted the plan to save themselves the hit from the appetizers and gratuities.

But from all the resort discounts, the free dining promotions, and now the holiday dining surcharges, Disney is scrambling to do whatever it can to get bodies in resorts. Disney has the "captive audience" for the most part, so they are pushing the boundaries of what people consider the breaking point. I mean, who hasn't gone to a sporting event and scoffed at the insanely priced concessions? I know I'm not paying the same money at the local hot dog stand.

And I agree with Firedancer, too. We do not have to LIKE it. But at least we can understand why Disney is doing it. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to avoid the DDP. I prefer Tables in Wonderland, anyway.

You've made a great many assumptions based on listening to two shows.

I know what I heard on the show last week. One can disagree with executive decisions without making personal attacks about the person(s) making them. I'd be worried about DU's business dealings with WDW after last week's show, if I were Pete.

I can understand Nancy's point. If you're not a regular listener to the show, a brand new listener has nothing to compare to. And if I had last week's show as my first show, I'd probably be a bit shocked by it. But since I'm used to Pete's rants, it didn't have that big an impact to me. I did think Pete went a bit far about the "cleaning woman" thing. The only part of Pete's rant I really liked was about Disney dropping the ball by letting Matt Ouimet walk out the door. I totally agreed with that.

In the prior show, it sounded like Kevin was being mean to Nikki. Now many of us know that wasn't the case. (I've known Nikki since the VMK days, and she's been a good sport about us teasing her.) But I can understand how a new listener (and Pete even!) thought Kevin was being a bit harsh.

Nancy, I am sorry if that discouraged you from listening. I don't think those snapshots in time represented what I think the podcast usually is. Most of the time I have to stifle my laughter because I'm in a public place while I'm listening.

 

[dpuck1998]

I'm going to chime in quickly. This is a bit off topic, but I hope this does indeed kill the Dining Plan. I've watched the food quality and quantity decline over the years since the inception of the plan. Disney keeps pushing the price up and homogenizing the meals to make the food cheaper. I'd like to go to a restaurant and have a unique experience instead of what is the steady decline of Disney food. I've used the Dining plan once and while I saved a few bucks, i ordered more food, ate different items (based on price) and ate at locations I might not have otherwise. I'd prefer to eat where I want, what I want and not worry about stretching the savings of my plan. So my hope is with this mess is that the Dining Plan dies. (I know I know, it won't happen, but I can dream)

 

[BriarRosie]

I'm going to chime in quickly. This is a bit off topic, but I hope this does indeed kill the Dining Plan. I've watched the food quality and quantity decline over the years since the inception of the plan. Disney keeps pushing the price up and homogenizing the meals to make the food cheaper. I'd like to go to a restaurant and have a unique experience instead of what is the steady decline of Disney food. I've used the Dining plan once and while I saved a few bucks, i ordered more food, ate different items (based on price) and ate at locations I might not have otherwise. I'd prefer to eat where I want, what I want and not worry about stretching the savings of my plan. So my hope is with this mess is that the Dining Plan dies. (I know I know, it won't happen, but I can dream)

I agree with you on the decline and homogenization of restaurants. Disney makes all sorts of changes and then try to blame it on "guest demand". The last time I ate at Le Cellier was a lunch a few years ago, pre-DDP. Once it became an overhyped place to eat on the DDP, I no longer wanted to deal with trying to get an ADR there.

Down with DDP!

 

[WaltD4Me]

If Pete started promoting Universal over Disney, the average DISer would think he'd lost his mind.

Your screen name is WaltD4Me. It's going to take more than Pete's recommendation to get you to change it to IOA4Ever.

Touche'

But I still maintain that the DIS kept me interested in Disney. I've tried other boards before and since I found the DIS and none kept me coming back like the DIS and that has value...the more I'm here, the more I want to go back to Disney.

 

[DisneyKevin]

The Dining plan was originally thought to be a way to save a few bucks on the expensive proposition of dining at Disney.

There were 100s if not 1000s of post looking for or offering ways to "make the most" of the dining plan.

People have created spread sheets and charts and graphs trying eck out an extra few dollars. "Can we share?" "What if I get the steak and my gets the fish and we get two appetizers?"

The podcast email account is inundated with emails asking for tips on making the Dining Plan stretch further and ways to beat the system.

The new Dining Plan is being marketed as a convenience. Disney takes the worry and stress out of paying the check. Your meals are pre-paid. This is easier than ordering and paying.

I think this is all Disney marketing crap. The Dining Plan guarantees that you will be eating at Disney establishments for the duration of your trip.

Disney doesnt want you buying a 9 dollar box of Publix fried chciken and some salads.

If you want your meals pre-paid....buy a Disney gift card. In this way you are free to choose when, where and what you want to eat, as opposed to counting credits and fitting into Disney's dining criteria.

And lets not forget....Dsieny raised the price of the Dining Plan across the board. Making parts of the year more expensive than the rest doesnt make the lower price a better value. You are still paying more.

And to those of you that think this is Disney just doing what businesses do.....will you still be able accept this explanation when your park tickets cost more om "peak days"?

What about days that get busy....will it be ok for Disney to increase pricing as the park fills? This is already the was DCL handles pricing.

Is ok that the first 10,000 people pay x number of dollars and the next 10,000 people pay $10 more and the 10,000 after than pay $20 more than the first group? If there is an already exisiting business model...does this make it acceptable across the board?

 

[WaltD4Me]

Is ok that the first 10,000 people pay x number of dollars and the next 10,000 people pay $10 more and the 10,000 after than pay $20 more than the first group? If there is an already exisiting business model...does this make it acceptable across the board?

And arguably, the last group, paying the most, get the "least" of the experience. More crowded, longer lines, more rushed, ect...

Also true with the DDP, paying more money when the restaurants are much more crowded, the waits longer, the service not quite as good. And chances are you paid all this money in advance and then you might not be able to get a reservation where you want to eat. At least with the Olive Garden on a Saturday night, you don't have to pay in advance and then find out you can't get a table until 10 o'clock at night or perhaps not at all.

 

[Brian Noble]

And to those of you that think this is Disney just doing what businesses do.....will you still be able accept this explanation when your park tickets cost more om "peak days"?

What about days that get busy....will it be ok for Disney to increase pricing as the park fills? This is already the was DCL handles pricing.

Is ok that the first 10,000 people pay x number of dollars and the next 10,000 people pay $10 more and the 10,000 after than pay $20 more than the first group? If there is an already exisiting business model...does this make it acceptable across the board?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Do I like it? No. My job means I have to travel when kids are out of school---so it's always going to be peak demand.

Do I think it is inevitable? Yes.

No one likes paying more rather than less for the same thing. But, if Disney can make more money by charging differential pricing for hotel rooms, restaurant meals, or park admission based on demand, then by golly that's exactly what they are going to do.

Don't confuse my position---I don't like it. I don't think it is "right" in any moral sense. That's because there is no moral dimension to (legal) profit. If raising prices generates increased profits, then raising prices is inherently "correct", even if it means I can no longer afford to go.

I'd be very sad if that day came, but contrary to popular belief, Disney is not in business to make me happy. Disney is in business to make money---it just so happens that they make money by making people happy. If they can make more money by making wealthier people happy, they will.

Perversely, it is Disney's "business model" of selling happines that makes this strategy so successful. There are so few other places that bring this sort of happiness to people, and so folks will do almost anything to get it---including paying outrageous prices for glorified motel rooms and rubber chicken.

Disney is effectively legal heroin.

 

[*NikkiBell*]

You are completely accurate in your analysis of everything you said, no argument from me. To take it a step further though do you think for one second a restaurant not in Disney could serve the quality of food many Disney restaurants do for the same price and survive? I don't think so but because they are in Disney they can charge high prices for mediocre food. I think the same non-standard criteria is applied here. No one else can overcharge for food as easily because they aren't Disney World and no one else can charge a premium at holidays like Disney World because they are who they are.

I don't like it but I understand it.

I have to disagree a bit here. With the exception of many counter service areas, I feel that the food at Disney is quite good. I'm speaking specifically of restaurants like Narcoossee's, California Grill, Jiko, etc. I would never in my wildest dreams call them mediocre and I find them all unique. There isn't a place here at home that has something similar.

 

[Allison]

Brian, I really appreciate your posts. We think a lot alike but you go to the trouble of actually posting it all and I can just agree. It's much less work.

 

[*NikkiBell*]

Kevin, every restaurant, even Disney, charges a premium for dinner vs lunch. Is there any real reason to change more for dinner vs lunch? No. Everyone, not just WDW does it. Is that fair?
--

In another view of Pete's rant, I am worried the goal of the rants just may backfire on the entire Disney Fan Community. The people who love Disney soooo much and want to share with everyone by creating unoffical podcasts and website have fine line they must walk. They have to entertain without violating trademark issues and playing recordings and music that is not put out for free by Disney. Many have done it and so far has been OK with Disney.

But over the last couple weeks shows that fine line has been crossed. In last weeks Pete said that we should 'burn down the building' (a terrorist act), and now Pete is calling the President of WDW a 'stupid cleaning woman', a 'puppet for Jay Russulo' and 'run her out of town on a rail'. While I agree there are times that Disney should be called out on things, with continuing comments like these Disney will shut down the unofficial podcasts, and we will loose our connection to our 'escape' when we are not there. There are other podcast that some say 'see everything with rose colored glasses on', they are not name calling, telling people to 'just eat off site', and embarrassing the community as a whole.

As I have been told many times by Pete and others on these boards, if you don't like something, don't post. Now is the time to tell everyone, the DIS Unplugged and everyone who say they 'love Disney', if you don't like the things that Disney and WDW are doing and the way they are handling things then don't go to WDW, don't visit the parks or eat there, don't renew your park passes, don't go on Disney cruises, don't visit web sites or listen to podcasts, don't build a business around Disney, and head north to Universal. This should make lines for attractions and dinning much shorter and more enjoyable for those who want to escape from reality for a few days. No one is forcing you to go to WDW or see their movies. I'm sure Universal would love to have a full time podcast and web sites showcasing them.

How's that for a rant. Don't make the joy of getting a little Disney fix each week a distant memory or everyone.

Last week was the 2nd time I listened to a Podcast, and I have to agree with you. Insulting the president of WDW repeatedly could certainly come back to bite Pete in the derriere. If he were ordinary Joe DISer and made those comments, it wouldn't matter. But when your company does a lot of business with WDW and DCL - making the comments he did was unwise.

Hmm. This makes me wonder a bit. Don't newscasters, comics, and other political commentators criticize businesses and the government on air? Why would the crew have to fudge their personal opinions for the fear that their show would be forced off the Net? Doesnt' freedom of speech come into play? Don't editors have the right to discuss their opinions about something through print? How is this different?

As far as embarrassing the "community," I'm assuming you are refering to the good people here on the DIS so that includes me. I'm not at all embarrassed by what was said. In fact, I can't even begin to process the concept of being embarrassed because someone spoke their mind.

 

[soupy11]

Hmm. This makes me wonder a bit. Don't newscasters, comics, and other political commentators criticize businesses and the government on air? Why would the crew have to fudge their personal opinions for the fear that their show would be forced off the Net? Doesnt' freedom of speech come into play? Don't editors have the right to discuss their opinions about something through print? How is this different?

.

I think the illusion that they should kiss disney's butt comes from the perception that they rely on disney to succeed for business to boom. Comics, newscasters, etc don't rely on the people they criticize to provide income.

Now with that said, the fact that they openly criticize them makes me a happy camper. Deep down, you know the critical comments come from a sincere desire to see improvements. They are not a sinister force looking to sway public opinion, or trump up business across town, they want Disney to make the best possible business decisions so that the products they offer are also top notch.