Pat Roberston stirring up a storm again

JoeEpcotRocks said:
I'm sure George Washington shook Benedict Arnold's hand too. (Too bad there were no cameras then.)

Saddam was the enemy of our enemy, Iran, at the time of your popular leftist photo.
And that is just the problem with the current administration and the holdovers, like Rummy, from earlier administrations, they'll shake hands and cosy up with just about any scumbag to get what they want. Some might call that foreign policy, others might call that hypocracy, .
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
No, I'm comparing George Washington's situation to Rumsfeld's. The fact is people change.
Sadaam didn't change - our interests did. He was not a markedly better leader then - we just feared Iran more, plus we needed the ag business. Now we've taken him out, and greatly strengthened Iran in the process!

It wasn't a change in conduct that caused us to change our policy to him - we covered up the gassings at Halabja. Nor were we upset when he invaded a neighbor (Iran), which he did with our blessing and support. But then he invaded a neighbor that was an ally (Kuwait). Not saying that makes us any worse than anyone else, but don't presume that we changed because he did.
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
I'm sure George Washington shook Benedict Arnold's hand too. (Too bad there were no cameras then.)

Saddam was the enemy of our enemy, Iran, at the time of your popular leftist photo.

Thanks for making my point...

The point being that Bu$h and co. don't support or oppose leaders based on how they treat the people of their country. Saddam was a tyrant then just as we was when we decided he was a bad guy, he was simply serving our purposes at the time so it was okay that he was murdering his own people.

As I've said before, the opposition to Chavez has nothing to do with his closeness to Cuba or humanitarian issues. They don't like his oil policies. Should Chavez up and decide he's going to sell us oil at a cheap price, he'd become our very bestest buddy.
 

This may be my paranoia speaking, but I think that a portion of our antipathy towards Chavez is based on the influence of Opus Dei types at high levels of US Government. OD is very big in Latin America, and was behind the aborted coup.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020506&s=gunson050602

So who made up Group Two? In part, it was Opus Dei--several of Carmona's Cabinet members had ties to the very conservative, very secretive Catholic group. As early as 1998 General Ruben Rojas Perez, commanding general of the army and son-in-law to former President Rafael Caldera--a man with extremely close ties to Opus Dei (his son is one of its foremost leaders)--had tried to prevent Chávez from taking power. And from his first months in office, Chávez had battled the Church hierarchy--whose leadership he once called "devils in vestments." He had withdrawn government funding for the Church's educational and social projects, and he tried to undermine its special legal status. For many in the Church--especially the right-wing of the Church--Chávez seemed to be following the model of his close friend and ally Fidel Castro.
What's more, Opus Dei was one of the few groups in Venezuelan society with reason to hate Simón Bolívar. Orthodox Catholics regard the Liberator's freemasonry--with its roots in pre-Christian occult traditions--as heresy. And historically, the Church sided with Spain against the South American independence movement Bolívar led. "Almost all the independence heroes were freemasons," explains political analyst Alberto Garrido. "The Church was on the side of [colonial power] Spain, and took a long time to reconcile itself to their status as heroes."
 
peachgirl said:
Thanks for making my point...

The point being that Bu$h and co. don't support or oppose leaders based on how they treat the people of their country. Saddam was a tyrant then just as we was when we decided he was a bad guy, he was simply serving our purposes at the time so it was okay that he was murdering his own people.

As I've said before, the opposition to Chavez has nothing to do with his closeness to Cuba or humanitarian issues. They don't like his oil policies. Should Chavez up and decide he's going to sell us oil at a cheap price, he'd become our very bestest buddy.

You've made it VERY clear that you think Bush is all about the $.

Of course the current White House cares about how world leaders treat their people. If "Bush & Co" gets involved, you'll accuse them of $$ interest, if they don't, you'll say they're uncaring.
 
peachgirl said:
I'm sorry but you're a page late...someone already won the "first to name Clinton" award. Nice try though.

At any rate, this isn't about President Clinton nor is it about Lott or Durbin or anyone else the right can think of to try and throw the subject off track.

It's about Pat Robertson and his call for the assassination of a democratically elected leader of a foreign country and about those, some of whom posted here, who agree with him.

Sure it was stupid of Robertson to suggest what he did. Just another in a long list of stupid things he's prone to say. But, it is rather curious that when Stephanopoulous called for the assasination of the another "elected" leader that went virutally unnoticed. Wonder why.
 
Of course the current White House cares about how world leaders treat their people.

Of course they do, how silly of me!:rolleyes:

I'm sure there's a perfectly good explanation of why Rummy would be shaking hands with a man who was murdering his own people.
 
Laugh O. Grams said:
And that is just the problem with the current administration and the holdovers, like Rummy, from earlier administrations, they'll shake hands and cosy up with just about any scumbag to get what they want. Some might call that foreign policy, others might call that hypocracy, .

you mean like this?

_38296259_cartercastro.jpg


clinton-arafat.jpg


17150131.jpg


_36326914_300kim_albrightap.jpg


albrightthaci.jpg


That's the Head of the KLA she's about to kiss
 
Mickey's Monkey said:
Sure it was stupid of Robertson to suggest what he did. Just another in a long list of stupid things he's prone to say. But, it is rather curious that when Stephanopoulous called for the assasination of the another "elected" leader that went virutally unnoticed. Wonder why.

WHat the hell is there to wonder about? George Stephanpoulous is a tv personality and Pat Robertson is/was the head of the Christian Coalition, runs a religious right empire and seems to be plugged into the WH.
 
Mickey's Monkey said:
you mean like this?

_38296259_cartercastro.jpg


clinton-arafat.jpg


17150131.jpg


_36326914_300kim_albrightap.jpg


albrightthaci.jpg


That's the Head of the KLA she's about to kiss

Funny...the pictures you show are either a President who is out of office (Carter, who incedentally spoke in a publically tevevised speech in Cuba about Castro's poor record on human rights, lack of free speech for Cuban citizens, and the need for a democratic society), or an active political official in the middle of a peace process.

The KLA/Albright picture from the 90's is unfortunate, due to the KLA's reported backing by organized crimes, Yugoslav terrorism and other nefarious activities, but I remind you, unless you trust Slobodan Milosevic's word over your Republican Congress of the 90's, we did not fund the KLA at all, we just took out their enemy, Milosevic, in a UN sanctioned move. A man who just happened to be slaughtering his own people, if they were the wrong "type".

The Reagan Administration funded Iraq, supplying Saddam with enough chemical weapons to rain hell down upon Iran. Rumsfeld was there on White House business as a special envoy to President Reagan...big difference!
 
For diplomacy to work, don't you have to sometimes meet with people you'd really rather not.

And if you're betrayed after the meeting and the usually photo shoot, the handshake pictures aren't going to go away.

Afterall -- Churchill, FDR, and Stalin met (with pictures taken). Did Stalin keeep his side of the deal?
 
The larger distinction is what is the purpose of the meeting. The Pope met with Castro (there are pictures). Carter met with Kim Jong Il on a semi-official meeting (although he acted a bit ultra vires). Nations and their representatives must occasionally break bread with the not so nice as part of statecraft.

The point of the Rumsfeld meeting is that we at one time were allies with Saddam, during a time that his behavior was not too different from today. Personally, I have little problem with that. Though in an ideal world we would never make common cause with tyrants, the real world is not so neat. Neihbuhr's "Moral Man and Immoral Society" lays out why the state cannot follow individual Christian mortality with respect to aggressors.

Sadaam was fighting Iran, who was our big enemy at the time (snarky aside - not so big an enemy that we would sell them arms and let them off after they killed 241 Marines). I have no problem with our alliance with him at least until Halabja an 1989. Presuming Halabja never occurred, I have no problem with suddenly turning on him after Kuwait (though April Glaspie should have been clearer) - Kuwait was an ally we swore to protect. No problem, IMO, that we switched on him for that.

What is poignant about the Rumsfeld photo is that Republicans especially love to personalize and demonize statecraft. They love to pretend that they don’t deal with bad people, and that they recognize them. The reason for this self-deception is twofold, IMO. First, all Presidents have to sell war, and they usually do it on human rights grounds because our nation is laudably sensitive to such concerns. That this President elected to expand the deception to inventing security threats was a bit of an extension, but everyone talks about the baddie we are against, and it is always helpful to personalize the evil, even if that's not totally accurate. The problem is that the true believers in this President, the true "base", like some on this thread, are especially infantilized in their worldview, and they actually internalize this stuff as true. The other factor at work is that this particular President is also more susceptible to this worldview - he "looks into the eyes" of Putin, a tyrant in his own right, and sees a buddy he can work out with. He "hates" Kim Jong Il because he's fat and starves his people. It is like having your foreign policy run by a 14 year old, but that's what we are stuck with.

So when the President makes such a deal that we must invade Iraq because the deranged Sdaam is so uniquely malevollent, it makes sense to point out that this spawn of Satan was a handshake type of cuddle up to guy not long ago. Presumably, the Reagan Administration lacked GWB's charism of scrutatio cordium, his ability to gaze into the eyes of an adversary and discover his true character. Reality is always more complex than he or his true believers elect to understand.

Bottom line, don't regurgitate the talking points or talk about "birds of a feather". Those more grounded understand that you have to deal with the Devil occasionally, to paraphrase Churchill justifying the Alliance with Stalin. They also understand that you have to meet to express anything greater than rhetoric, like the Pope understood.
 
For diplomacy to work, don't you have to sometimes meet with people you'd really rather not.

Tell it to Dawn, she's the one who claims you are who you associate with...although her position could change at any time depending on what point she's trying to make.

As much as the right wants this thread off track, the subject is that a leader of a very powerful political group in the US publicly called for the assasination of a foreign leader.

All the diversionary tactics in the world won't change it and it won't change the fact that there are some who agree with the notion that murdering foreign leaders who don't do our bidding is just fine.
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
For diplomacy to work, don't you have to sometimes meet with people you'd really rather not.

And if you're betrayed after the meeting and the usually photo shoot, the handshake pictures aren't going to go away.

Afterall -- Churchill, FDR, and Stalin met (with pictures taken). Did Stalin keeep his side of the deal?


Thank You. ITA :)
 
peachgirl said:
As much as the right wants this thread off track, the subject is that a leader of a very powerful political group in the US publicly called for the assasination of a foreign leader.

Jesus calmed the waters.

Pat Robertson stirs them up. :sad2:
 
ThAnswr said:
WHat the hell is there to wonder about? George Stephanpoulous is a tv personality and Pat Robertson is/was the head of the Christian Coalition, runs a religious right empire and seems to be plugged into the WH.
Stephanopoulous is a tv personality NOW. He was an advisor to a sitting president. Pat Roberston is a private citizen, he is not a government employee or a White House employee. He isn't an advisor to the president. I know that you wish it were so........
 
DawnCt1 said:
Stephanopoulous is a tv personality NOW. He was an advisor to a sitting president. Pat Roberston is a private citizen, he is not a government employee or a White House employee. He isn't an advisor to the president. I know that you wish it were so........
No need to wish...in 1997, when he made that comment, he had left the White House and was working as a correspondent for ABC News at the time. He was a private citizen, who incidentally, published a book critical of Clinton. There were a few cool years between Bubba and his ol' pal George for sure!!
 








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