Party of 8, two scooters and a stroller - My experience with accessibility

[cmwade77]

Fine. Then stop going. Or actively fight to have said attractions redesigned to comply with individual interpretations of the ADA.

Who says I am not actively fighting to get it changed? Believe it or not, in addition to contacting Disney directly, the best way to get things changed is to post on forums like these because Disney does indeed read them.

 

[cmwade77]

@cmwade77 I don't know what your experience has been at Star Tours at WDW/HS, but I drive my device all the way to the door of the attraction, and a CM parks it for me. No problem.

As far as Buzz goes, it's my understanding that the reason ECVs are "embargoed" in that line is because of the queue design as well as the load/unload design; wheelchairs work better in that particular setup. I have to admit, I haven't been in that attraction since "If You Had Wings" was the theme song, but that's what a very friendly CM told me one afternoon at MK. He also admitted that personal mobility devices like mine would fit just fine, but they treat everyone the same, so I would have to ride in a provided chair just like everyone else. (I don't ride Buzz because having watched the videos, I would rather go over to HS and ride TSM instead. Your mileage may very)

And any other attraction where the queue isn't ECV friendly? So what? I'm at Disney World, for crying out loud. Transferring to a wheelchair is the *least* of my worries. I'm just thrilled that I'm there! If transferring to a wheelchair to ride Pirates is the worst thing that happened to you at Disney World? You have mighty few problems, my friend.

We don't always get to the bend the world to our will. WDW (and DL for that matter) was originally conceived during a time when ECVs were (literally) but a dream, and no one thought there would ever be that many wheelchairs in the Parks, let alone people. During my first visit to WDW in 1972, we saw *1* person in a wheelchair, and she was a girl my age who had broken her leg. My dad helped her dad lift her chair onto the sidewalk on Main Street because there were no curb cuts or ramps.

Be grateful that you have the resources to go WDW or DL as often as you apparently do. I know many, many families who would happily take your place if they could; for them, Disney World and DisneyLand are but a dream that will never be fulfilled.

The problem is not everyone CAN transfer to a wheelchair, it isn't for me that I care, there are many people who I saw that were unable to enjoy an attraction because they couldn't transfer.

As for Star Tours, they always say the queue is not accessible to ECVs in my experience.

 

[mamabunny]

The problem is not everyone CAN transfer to a wheelchair, it isn't for me that I care, there are many people who I saw that were unable to enjoy an attraction because they couldn't transfer.

I'm sorry, but that does not make sense. If a person is capable of boarding and driving an ECV, they should be capable of transferring to a wheelchair. I use my mobility device nearly 100% of the time now, but I remain capable of transferring - otherwise I would not be able to (for example) use the toilet, sit in a chair, or sleep in a bed.

Perhaps what you witnessed was someone who didn't *want* to transfer to a chair for the queue. That is, as the old saying goes, a horse of a different color. A person who refuses to transfer to a wheelchair because they want to take their ECV through the line is a completely different category - and is not covered by the ADA in this case. An accommodation has been provided. It does NOT have to be the accommodation that the Guest *wants*, only that meets the spirit and the letter of the law, and is within the scope of Disney's standard operating procedures.

As for Star Tours, they always say the queue is not accessible to ECVs in my experience.

I have driven the wheelchair accessible path more than once at Star Tours. It does detour from the standard queue, so you don't get the full experience (and has a fair slope to it) but I have never been denied entrance at HS/WDW Star Tours. Even when I don't ride, but wait for family to finish the ride (over by the rail overlooking the store below), it's not an issue.

When was the last time you asked?

 

[ktate82]

This was my experience as well. They didn't have any WC's at the attraction to transfer to and those working there had no idea what to do. I had people with me who could have pushed it. I didn't ride Gringotts because the employees there were so disorganized and had no alternative for me. At the Mummy I went through the express line because I can stand and walk for awhile. After that I just didn't bother trying to ride anything. I was chaperoning a school group so I had a lot going on or I'd probably have gone back to guest services and discussed it with them. I haven't gone back and don't really care to go back.

Gringotts is one place where they seemed to know what to do. They didn't ask that she transfer, and they took us in the exit. It was one of the simplest rides. The mummy, Jimmy Fallon, and a few others were the most difficult. We had a lot of fun and really enjoyed Universal. Next time though, we will also bring our own wheelchair as well as the EVC so we don't have to worry about it. Sorry you didn't enjoy Universal.

 

[Chickenlady]

I ride Star Tours multiple times every year when we visit WDW. DH and DS are ultimate Star Wars fans! I use an ECV. I have never been denied the use of my ECV. I'm always directed up the handicapped line off to the left and end up parking around the exit side of the pods, where they have us enter the Star Tours motion simulators from the exit doors following the exit of the previous group. Prob. 50 times at least. The only problem I have found is the our party never has the "spy" as we are always in the front row off to the far end of the row by the exit and come in slowly .

 

[cmwade77]

I'm sorry, but that does not make sense. If a person is capable of boarding and driving an ECV, they should be capable of transferring to a wheelchair. I use my mobility device nearly 100% of the time now, but I remain capable of transferring - otherwise I would not be able to (for example) use the toilet, sit in a chair, or sleep in a bed.

Perhaps what you witnessed was someone who didn't *want* to transfer to a chair for the queue. That is, as the old saying goes, a horse of a different color. A person who refuses to transfer to a wheelchair because they want to take their ECV through the line is a completely different category - and is not covered by the ADA in this case. An accommodation has been provided. It does NOT have to be the accommodation that the Guest *wants*, only that meets the spirit and the letter of the law, and is within the scope of Disney's standard operating procedures.



I have driven the wheelchair accessible path more than once at Star Tours. It does detour from the standard queue, so you don't get the full experience (and has a fair slope to it) but I have never been denied entrance at HS/WDW Star Tours. Even when I don't ride, but wait for family to finish the ride (over by the rail overlooking the store below), it's not an issue.

When was the last time you asked?

You assume that everyone who is in an ECV is capable of propelling or pushing a wheelchair?

Nope, sorry, many can't and others in their party are incapable of pushing them.

It makes total sense and yes, ADA would require them to be accommodated in some shape or form. The simplest is ensuring queues are properly designed to allow for ECVs.

 

[Selket]

Gringotts is one place where they seemed to know what to do. They didn't ask that she transfer, and they took us in the exit. It was one of the simplest rides. The mummy, Jimmy Fallon, and a few others were the most difficult. We had a lot of fun and really enjoyed Universal. Next time though, we will also bring our own wheelchair as well as the EVC so we don't have to worry about it. Sorry you didn't enjoy Universal.

Well it's good to know - I will try Gringotts again then if I ever end up at US/IOA. I wish the lines were mainstreamed for the ECV's there like they are at Disney because it makes it so so so much simpler. I hope they at least get better at providing a WC to transfer to.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Except people are indicating that at Universal recent attractions aren't.

Have to disagree. Universal not allowing ECVs in the regular line is its choice. The queues are wide enough to handle most ECVs; probably poor steering led to the mandate. I was able and allowed to bring the ECV all the way through the Dueling Dragons queue, granted 15 or so years ago.

 

[cmwade77]

Have to disagree. Universal not allowing ECVs in the regular line is its choice. The queues are wide enough to handle most ECVs; probably poor steering led to the mandate. I was able and allowed to bring the ECV all the way through the Dueling Dragons queue, granted 15 or so years ago.

That is actually not a choice they are allowed to make, if an ECV has previously been allowed, it shows that it can be done and the only way they can prohibit ECVs in a queue is if they cannot remodel the queue to accommodate them. In your example, the queue already accommodated them in the past, so no remodel would be necessary, only a policy change and under that circumstance ADA would require ECVs to be allowed in the queue.

 

[OurBigTrip]

That is actually not a choice they are allowed to make, if an ECV has previously been allowed, it shows that it can be done and the only way they can prohibit ECVs in a queue is if they cannot remodel the queue to accommodate them. In your example, the queue already accommodated them in the past, so no remodel would be necessary, only a policy change and under that circumstance ADA would require ECVs to be allowed in the queue.

If they allowed ECVs in the past, but it became a safety issue, they are not required to continue to allow them.

 

[kaytieeldr]

If they allowed ECVs in the past, but it became a safety issue, they are not required to continue to allow them.

True. Tower of Terror used to allow ECVs, way back. So did Buzz Lightyear. Buzz used to have you go in through the exit, although I know at least one time I used the regular queue. Anyway, ToT, I rode right past the Greeter without being stopped. Next visit I was advised of the prohibition but ended up going through the exit.

 

[mamabunny]

You assume that everyone who is in an ECV is capable of propelling or pushing a wheelchair?

Nope, sorry, many can't and others in their party are incapable of pushing them.

It makes total sense and yes, ADA would require them to be accommodated in some shape or form. The simplest is ensuring queues are properly designed to allow for ECVs.

I assume nothing. You, however, have apparently leapt to the conclusion that *everyone* in a wheelchair is incapable of self-propelling, and travels either alone, or without anyone who can assist them. This is not only untrue, but patently absurd.

But, for those who are incapable of utilizing the attraction supplied wheelchairs, the ADA *still* does not require Disney to allow them to use their ECV. Disney has met the ADA requirements, whether you like it or not.

The individual still bears a level of responsibility for making sure that all of their needs can be met - which may mean that they have to bring along (whether volunteer or hired) assistance.

 

[Frems]

It makes total sense and yes, ADA would require them to be accommodated in some shape or form. The simplest is ensuring queues are properly designed to allow for ECVs.

You have *such* a wealth of knowledge about ADA law, however the section of ADA policy you are attempting to claim here simply does not state anything about ECV accessibility.

I believe you are referring to Title III subsection 36.403, Path of Travel.

“
36.403 Alterations: Path of travel.

• (a) General.
  • (1) An alteration that affects or could affect the usability of or access to an area of a facility that contains a primary function shall be made so as to ensure that, to the maximum extent feasible, the path of travel to the altered area and the restrooms, telephones, and drinking fountains serving the altered area, are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs, unless the cost and scope of such alterations is disproportionate to the cost of the overall alteration.
  • (2) If a private entity has constructed or altered required elements of a path of travel at a place of public accommodation or commercial facility in accordance with the specifications in the 1991 Standards, the private entity is not required to retrofit such elements to reflect the incremental changes in the 2010 Standards solely because of an alteration to a primary function area served by that path of travel.
• (b) Primary function. A "primary function" is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a primary function include, but are not limited to, the customer services lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors, and restrooms are not areas containing a primary function.
• (c) Alterations to an area containing a primary function.
  • (1) Alterations that affect the usability of or access to an area containing a primary function include, but are not limited to –
    • (i) Remodeling merchandise display areas or employee work areas in a department store;
    • (ii) Replacing an inaccessible floor surface in the customer service or employee work areas of a bank;
    • (iii) Redesigning the assembly line area of a factory; or
    • (iv) Installing a computer center in an accounting firm.
  • (2) For the purposes of this section, alterations to windows, hardware, controls, electrical outlets, and signage shall not be deemed to be alterations that affect the usability of or access to an area containing a primary function.”

Disney FULLY falls within compliance of this, by providing a path that is “readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs.”

Maybe you could write to the ADA about including ECVs and other motorized vehicles in this article, since you know their policies so well.

 

[cmwade77]

You have *such* a wealth of knowledge about ADA law, however the section of ADA policy you are attempting to claim here simply does not state anything about ECV accessibility.

I believe you are referring to Title III subsection 36.403, Path of Travel.

“
36.403 Alterations: Path of travel.

• (a) General.
  • (1) An alteration that affects or could affect the usability of or access to an area of a facility that contains a primary function shall be made so as to ensure that, to the maximum extent feasible, the path of travel to the altered area and the restrooms, telephones, and drinking fountains serving the altered area, are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs, unless the cost and scope of such alterations is disproportionate to the cost of the overall alteration.
  • (2) If a private entity has constructed or altered required elements of a path of travel at a place of public accommodation or commercial facility in accordance with the specifications in the 1991 Standards, the private entity is not required to retrofit such elements to reflect the incremental changes in the 2010 Standards solely because of an alteration to a primary function area served by that path of travel.
• (b) Primary function. A "primary function" is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a primary function include, but are not limited to, the customer services lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors, and restrooms are not areas containing a primary function.
• (c) Alterations to an area containing a primary function.
  • (1) Alterations that affect the usability of or access to an area containing a primary function include, but are not limited to –
    • (i) Remodeling merchandise display areas or employee work areas in a department store;
    • (ii) Replacing an inaccessible floor surface in the customer service or employee work areas of a bank;
    • (iii) Redesigning the assembly line area of a factory; or
    • (iv) Installing a computer center in an accounting firm.
  • (2) For the purposes of this section, alterations to windows, hardware, controls, electrical outlets, and signage shall not be deemed to be alterations that affect the usability of or access to an area containing a primary function.”

Disney FULLY falls within compliance of this, by providing a path that is “readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs.”

Maybe you could write to the ADA about including ECVs and other motorized vehicles in this article, since you know their policies so well.

Actually, there is far more than just the section you cite that would indeed require it, but it is useless talking in circles.

 

[chicagoshannon]

Sounds like Universal has changed things greatly since my parents were with (the ones that use the ECV) 2.5 years ago. They were with us last just before Fallon opened. At that time they had no issue with bringing the ECV in every line they wanted or using the alternate entrance. This includes: MIB, ET, Minions, Barney, Transformers, Gringotts, Hogwarts train, Cat in the Hat, Forbidden journey, Jurassic, Suess Trolley, Spiderman, Kong.

They also used to bring the ECV into Haunted Mansion but that changed before our last visit. I understand why. It's so dark in there I'm sure there were collisions with the ECV. Back in the day they used to have the wheelchair party enter through the exit which was also a cluster and then you missed the stretching room entirely.

 

[DanielleStar]

@cmwade77 I don't know what your experience has been at Star Tours at WDW/HS, but I drive my device all the way to the door of the attraction, and a CM parks it for me. No problem.

As far as Buzz goes, it's my understanding that the reason ECVs are "embargoed" in that line is because of the queue design as well as the load/unload design; wheelchairs work better in that particular setup. I have to admit, I haven't been in that attraction since "If You Had Wings" was the theme song, but that's what a very friendly CM told me one afternoon at MK. He also admitted that personal mobility devices like mine would fit just fine, but they treat everyone the same, so I would have to ride in a provided chair just like everyone else. (I don't ride Buzz because having watched the videos, I would rather go over to HS and ride TSM instead. Your mileage may very)

And any other attraction where the queue isn't ECV friendly? So what? I'm at Disney World, for crying out loud. Transferring to a wheelchair is the *least* of my worries. I'm just thrilled that I'm there! If transferring to a wheelchair to ride Pirates is the worst thing that happened to you at Disney World? You have mighty few problems, my friend.

We don't always get to the bend the world to our will. WDW (and DL for that matter) was originally conceived during a time when ECVs were (literally) but a dream, and no one thought there would ever be that many wheelchairs in the Parks, let alone people. During my first visit to WDW in 1972, we saw *1* person in a wheelchair, and she was a girl my age who had broken her leg. My dad helped her dad lift her chair onto the sidewalk on Main Street because there were no curb cuts or ramps.

Be grateful that you have the resources to go WDW or DL as often as you apparently do. I know many, many families who would happily take your place if they could; for them, Disney World and DisneyLand are but a dream that will never be fulfilled.

I find your comment to be offensive that you think people should suck it up basically if they “complain" that the transfer from the ECV to a regular wheelchair is difficult . As a full-time mobility scooter user this usually a VERY difficult transfer for me to do. I usually have to skip out on some attractions not because of the wait time is long but because of the no ECVs in certain attraction queues policy. I typically travel with just my mom. I’m an adult little person short stature. Transferring to a regular size wheelchair that is not my size fit for my size or too high off the ground can easily injure my mom or tire her in the transferring process. Because I don’t want my mom’s vacation to be ruined by her being in pain, I typically will not experience an attraction with a no ECV in the queue policy. Of course I’m very grateful for all the accommodations that Disney provides for their guest with disabilities however nothing is perfect and there are still people with disabilities who feel left out. Not all ECV users have the same mobility needs and no I do not have any “problems” as you alluded to because I am frustrated when an attraction queue is not ECV friendly. Like many people with disabilities I do not want special treatment, I just want equal access.

 

[Hopefully]

Wow @DanielleStar this come across as a very angry post for someone who just joined and only has 4 posts.
Neither all able bodied people nor all disabled people have the same needs we are all unique individuals. I’m sure my needs are very different from what you describe. I too can’t do everything I would like.
Sorry you feel so frustrated.

 

[DanielleStar]

Wow @DanielleStar this come across as a very angry post for someone who just joined and only has 4 posts.
Neither all able bodied people nor all disabled people have the same needs we are all unique individuals. I’m sure my needs are very different from what you describe. I too can’t do everything I would like.
Sorry you feel so frustrated.

You are exactly right, not everyone has the same needs or challenges. Though I am new to DIS Boards, I have traveled to both DL and DW many times. But as an ECV user, I felt hurt when I read that I have my own "problems" for being frustrated if I need to access queues via a standard wheelchair.
I am sorry if others felt uncomfortable by my comment.

 

[camper06]

You are exactly right, not everyone has the same needs or challenges. Though I am new to DIS Boards, I have traveled to both DL and DW many times. But as an ECV user, I felt hurt when I read that I have my own "problems" for being frustrated if I need to access queues via a standard wheelchair.
I am sorry if others felt uncomfortable by my comment.

I thought the remark was insensitive and condescending as well. No matter how many or how few posts you have on here, you have every right to speak up when you are offended by a posters remarks.

 

[mamabunny]

I find your comment to be offensive that you think people should suck it up basically if they “complain" that the transfer from the ECV to a regular wheelchair is difficult . As a full-time mobility scooter user this usually a VERY difficult transfer for me to do. I usually have to skip out on some attractions not because of the wait time is long but because of the no ECVs in certain attraction queues policy. I typically travel with just my mom. I’m an adult little person short stature. Transferring to a regular size wheelchair that is not my size fit for my size or too high off the ground can easily injure my mom or tire her in the transferring process. Because I don’t want my mom’s vacation to be ruined by her being in pain, I typically will not experience an attraction with a no ECV in the queue policy. Of course I’m very grateful for all the accommodations that Disney provides for their guest with disabilities however nothing is perfect and there are still people with disabilities who feel left out. Not all ECV users have the same mobility needs and no I do not have any “problems” as you alluded to because I am frustrated when an attraction queue is not ECV friendly. Like many people with disabilities I do not want special treatment, I just want equal access.

I'm sorry that you found it offensive. However, I was not speaking to you - or the wider DISabilities community at that point. My remarks were meant for the person to whom I was replying, *not* the community at large. So your offense, and righteous indignation is admirable, but misplaced.

I am right there with you when it comes to attractions where I can't take my personal mobility device; I haven't seen the inside of POTC in *years*, and will likely never ride Navi. I travel with my adult daughter who tries to help me with transfers whenever possible, but like you, I constantly worry that my family member could be injured trying to help me, and I refuse to put her in that position.

I have chosen to use a personal ECV full time rather than a wheelchair for lots of personal reasons, not the least of which is that my personal mobility device is lightweight enough that I can still load it and unload it by myself at the moment, and my vehicle has not had to be modified to accommodate it, giving me more freedom than I will have when I have to start using a chair full time. From your statement, you too have chosen to use an ECV full time. You and I are in the minority, overall. Most folks who require full time personal mobility wind up using a powered chair of some flavor.

But most folks who use ECVs at WDW - in fact, I would dare say a strong majority - *can* make that transfer. Even people who can only stand and walk a few steps can typically make the transfer from an ECV to an attraction supplied wheelchair if they are placed close together, and they can typically make the transfer from an ECV to a ride vehicle if the ECV can be brought close enough to the loading area.

And folks who are already in a wheelchair don't have to transfer to another mobility device, although they may have to transfer to a ride vehicle.

I don't think that people should "suck it up" over the transfer from an ECV to a wheelchair - at all. My point was regarding his *attitude*, not his ability. And I have long been a proponent for Disney to correct the *glaring* lack of mobility-friendly boat ride vehicles; any boat ride that requires a step-over is not doable for me, even with the transfer devices that are available at a couple of the rides, and now that I can't easily or safely transfer to a wheelchair, the remainder of the rides are off-limits as well. There are no more boat rides for me at WDW (aside from Guest transportation). Buzz Lightyear is out of the question for me, because I can't transfer to the ride-supplied chair now. The list goes on, and on. I have a feeling you are well-acquainted with it as well.

In this instance however, I stand by my words - for although they may have been poorly chosen, or may not have conveyed the message and/or intent to you, the casual reader, they made the point that needed to be made in that part of the conversation. You clearly do not know my history here, or the history of the person I was replying to. You appear to have jumped to a conclusion regarding my intent, and my words without taking the time to consider the context.

I look forward to getting to know you better, and I hope you enjoy your time here in our little corner of the DISboards.