Parenting advice needed??? Help!

[roseaster]

I am mostly a lurker, but I will give you a suggestion. I agree I would have a family meeting. I would discuss the fact that you are upset over the disrespectful behavior.

There is one main rule that covers everything. Respect. The rule should be "Everyone acts in a respectful manner to all family members." Arguing, yelling, whining, hitting, it is all just disrespectful behavior.

The find their currency. I am not sure what it is for the younger one, but we will say electronics. Set very firm limits on electronics. Say from 7-8 at night, only after homework and housework is done. Whatever rules work for you. Each and every time someone breaks the respect rule they lose a day of electronics. Absolutely each and every time. No warnings. Use a visual reminder, say drop a marble in a jar each time they break a rule, remove a marble each time they serve a day of their punishment. They know that only if the jar is empty, they can play. The very important part is never to show emotion. You need to be deadly calm. If they upset you, they control you. When the rule is broken very simply restate the rule. "Arguing is disrespectful." "Hitting your brother is disrespectful." etc, and place a marble in the jar.

Every once in awhile surprise them with a big reward. Remember, baby steps. Don't warn them ahead of time, don't give them a goal. Maybe the 1st time say, "I am proud of your behavior, the last 3 days have been great, you can invite a friend to spend the night, or let's get ice cream" (or whatever reward is important to them) Then keep stretching. A week, 2 weeks, a month. Be prepared to reward one and not the other if need be, and be prepared for the backlash.

Remember when you 1st set up a new rule it will get worse before it gets better. Since you have a history of not following through they will test you. Stick to your guns, remember, do not engage. Walk away if you have to.

 

[kandb]

Did not read the whole thread but they offer a class out of our school district on "how to parent, discipline etc". It seems like some outside help could be beneficial. Good luck.

 

[TinkerBelled]

Agree, and it seems like common sense, but I'd set a time limit ___ hours per day, and electronics off and in their chargers downstairs after ____ o'clock.

My aunt had this problem and approached it with choice: the boys were allowed to play five hours a week, but they could decide how to 'spend' that time. So, for example, they could play half an hour a weekday and two-and-a-half hours on the weekend, or they could save up their time for an intense session. It gave them a sense of responsibility for their own time, and it ended up resulting in several days with no gaming at all.

I should say that there were caveats: they could spend the time as they wished as long as they didn't have other responsibilities (e.g. homework, chores, family outings, etc.), and they had to respect their bedtimes.

I think it's a little complicated, but it's an interesting idea. For me, when I was a kid, it was TV, and we weren't allowed more than a half hour on weeknights (with an exception for the news or TV/movies watched as a family). As a huge nerd, I was a Square One addict.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Ok...DS10 is the extrovert, the funny one, class clown, center of attention, super outgoing, can make friends anywhere. Not really into sports. Too young still to go out with friends alone, doesn't really get invited to birthday parties which I can't understand why still. Has health issues like peanut/tree nut allergies and asthma. Gets dragged all over to DS12's sport practices, games, drop off, pick ups, etc.

I'm noticing in this post more things about your DS10 that you are probably (and rightly) giving a lot of attention to - worrying about his asthma, making special allergy-free things to eat, etc. And it sounds like you feel sorry for your DS10 about not being invited to as many parties, having to go to his brother's activities, etc.

I expect you try hard to make to make up for these things (a normal adult reaction). In turn, I expect that your DS12 probably feels that you favor your DS10 (a normal kid reaction) - even if he hasn't actually said so in words. Kids don't always see the whole picture, and the balance that adults do. One piece might mean way more to them than the others.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I'm noticing in this post more things about your DS10 that you are probably (and rightly) giving a lot of attention to - worrying about his asthma, making special allergy-free things to eat, etc. And it sounds like you feel sorry for your DS10 about not being invited to as many parties, having to go to his brother's activities, etc.

I expect you try hard to make to make up for these things (a normal adult reaction). In turn, I expect that your DS12 probably feels that you favor your DS10 (a normal kid reaction) - even if he hasn't actually said so in words. Kids don't always see the whole picture, and the balance that adults do. One piece might mean way more to them than the others.

That's what I think. It was kind of the same way here. It's hard on the older kid when the youngest has greater needs.

 

[lukenick1]

Ok experts......help me with this one!!

DS10 is humming an annoying tune in the car just to aggravate. DS12 asks him to stop. DS10 keeps doing it. I ask him to stop. He does it again. DS12 screams "cut it out you little idiot". I get mad at DS12 for not letting me handle it and being nasty to DS10. I finally make a threat to DS10 to stop. He finally stops (for once). This is a pattern in the car. DS10 does something, DS12 reacts immediately, instead of ignoring him. I have started asking DS12 to sit in the front seat because the two of them constantly start in the car. Do you know how many times I have turned my radio up blasting our ears just to get them to stop yelling at each other?? I cannot take them anywhere together in public. Seriously, one will aggravate the other and then they are both yelling back and forth making a scene. It is so embarrassing. Thank God DS12 is old enough to stay home alone now. What do I do??? DS10 can't do anything good in DS12's eyes, he despises him. Makes me sad.

 

[mickeyplanner08]

Ok experts......help me with this one!!

DS10 is humming an annoying tune in the car just to aggravate. DS12 asks him to stop. DS10 keeps doing it. I ask him to stop. He does it again. DS12 screams "cut it out you little idiot". I get mad at DS12 for not letting me handle it and being nasty to DS10. I finally make a threat to DS10 to stop. He finally stops (for once). This is a pattern in the car. DS10 does something, DS12 reacts immediately, instead of ignoring him. I have started asking DS12 to sit in the front seat because the two of them constantly start in the car. Do you know how many times I have turned my radio up blasting our ears just to get them to stop yelling at each other?? I cannot take them anywhere together in public. Seriously, one will aggravate the other and then they are both yelling back and forth making a scene. It is so embarrassing. Thank God DS12 is old enough to stay home alone now. What do I do??? DS10 can't do anything good in DS12's eyes, he despises him. Makes me sad.

Well, you just let DS 10 "win," so he is sitting in the back seat giggling away. He got to be annoying, didn't listen to you, and then got his brother yelled at-all in a 2 minute interaction. DS 12 now is incredibly mad because DD10 didn't get in any trouble at all for being annoying, and he ends up getting screamed at.

You need to try just the opposite of what you are doing, I think. Instead of turning the radio up, turn it off! Start whispering at your kids instead of yelling at them. This interaction probably would have lead to some kind of discipline for both of mine. The younger one would have lost screen time in our house, and the older one would have had to help with some kind of household chore. However, the punishment would have been delivered in a monotone. Just because they are escalated doesn't mean I'm going to. Pick a punishment, and then follow through. I may or may not have given a warning. At 10 and 12 they are old enough to know this is not acceptable behavior.

I have a DD 12, and a DS 11 and they are by no means perfect, and I still yell. I live parts of your crazy on a pretty regular basis. However, I pull screens from my younger one on a regular basis-it's his currency, for sure! Good luck, keep at it. It is not going to get better unless there are some changes, and you don't want to keep this up for another 6 years til the older one goes off to school

 

[leebee]

Ok experts......help me with this one!!

DS10 is humming an annoying tune in the car just to aggravate. DS12 asks him to stop. DS10 keeps doing it. I ask him to stop. He does it again. DS12 screams "cut it out you little idiot". I get mad at DS12 for not letting me handle it and being nasty to DS10. I finally make a threat to DS10 to stop. He finally stops (for once). This is a pattern in the car. DS10 does something, DS12 reacts immediately, instead of ignoring him. I have started asking DS12 to sit in the front seat because the two of them constantly start in the car. Do you know how many times I have turned my radio up blasting our ears just to get them to stop yelling at each other?? I cannot take them anywhere together in public. Seriously, one will aggravate the other and then they are both yelling back and forth making a scene. It is so embarrassing. Thank God DS12 is old enough to stay home alone now. What do I do??? DS10 can't do anything good in DS12's eyes, he despises him. Makes me sad.

Punishment all around. Was there a consequence for DS10, who was willingly being annoying, continuing to hum the little tune after you asked him to stop, or did you just dump on DS12? You know the younger one was just doing it to bait DS12! Make it VERY clear that you WILL stop the car, you WILL turn around and go home, if they cannot be agreeable in your vehicle. Then follow through. Don't care where you are going. Don't care what they miss out on. You are the parent, you make the rules, you issue the consequences, you follow through on them.

And... not to be mean... but it's clear here on a message board that you prefer DS10, so I am sure your DS12 sees this, too. Are there reasons? Maybe, but I also have observed that parents are "harder" on the older child because they expect more from them. Try to be more fair-handed in your expectations and responses, because otherwise you are going to have just as big, if different, issues with DS10 in a few years. He's starting already...

 

[lukenick1]

First off....I did not yell. I just told him to let me handle it and to stop being nasty to his brother. DS12's take on it is why should I be punished if DS10 started annoying me. If I turn around and take them home then DS12 hates DS10 for it even worse than he already does. Can't bring DS10 home, he is too young to be left alone. I had DS12's friend in the car and I was bringing them to get some parts for their bikes. Parenting is THE HARDEST job ever!!!!! I really need a parenting for dummies book to look up what to do in situations like this. Normally I would just yell, and they would still get their way. I am trying to turn over a new leaf but have no idea what to do in these situations. I guess I should have maybe made DS10 stay in the car for not listening while DS12 went in with his friend. I am learning.......

 

[lukenick1]

Oh and if I didn't warn DS10 and just punished him immediately he would have started saying...."what did I do? You didn't warn me".....over and over and over again!!!!! Ugh!!!!!!

 

[Southernmiss]

First off....I did not yell. I just told him to let me handle it and to stop being nasty to his brother. DS12's take on it is why should I be punished if DS10 started annoying me. If I turn around and take them home then DS12 hates DS10 for it even worse than he already does. Can't bring DS10 home, he is too young to be left alone. I had DS12's friend in the car and I was bringing them to get some parts for their bikes. Parenting is THE HARDEST job ever!!!!! I really need a parenting for dummies book to look up what to do in situations like this. Normally I would just yell, and they would still get their way. I am trying to turn over a new leaf but have no idea what to do in these situations. I guess I should have maybe made DS10 stay in the car for not listening while DS12 went in with his friend. I am learning.......

Oh and if I didn't warn DS10 and just punished him immediately he would have started saying...."what did I do? You didn't warn me".....over and over and over again!!!!! Ugh!!!!!!

Since this happens everytime you go somewhere, lay out the expected behavior before you start the car. Both od the boys would have been in troble in my home. I would have calmly stopped the car and said ds10 you are in trouble for continuing to hum after being asked nicely to stop. Ds12 you are in trouble for not being respectful to ds10. We will discuss consequences at home. Then at home use the currency that works for each ds.

There is manual I used in a moms group parenting class called Systematic Training for Effective Parenting. Breaks it all down with manuals for each stage--toddler, early elementary, middle school and teen.

 

[lukenick1]

And... not to be mean... but it's clear here on a message board that you prefer DS10, so I am sure your DS12 sees this, too. Are there reasons? Maybe, but I also have observed that parents are "harder" on the older child because they expect more from them. Try to be more fair-handed in your expectations and responses, because otherwise you are going to have just as big, if different, issues with DS10 in a few years. He's starting already...

Yes you are right......
It's the nasty way he treats his little brother that really makes me angry at him. DS10 does things to get his attention negatively because its the only attention he gets from him. It makes me so sad. DS10 has a heart of gold and really adores his brother. He is thoughtful, caring, generous, etc and gets nothing in return. DS12 has always been a very stubborn, tempered kid. We love him but don't like his personality at home. Outside of the home he is a good boy, is smart, and very witty. We try to hug him and he is cold to us. I know it is all because he is jealous of his little brother. Not sure how we can change those feelings. DS10 has needed more attention because of the health issues and he is the baby. Can't help that. If DS12 changed the way he treated his brother everything else would get worked out. That negativity towards him really sets me off.

 

[SarahWeasley]

Oh and if I didn't warn DS10 and just punished him immediately he would have started saying...."what did I do? You didn't warn me".....over and over and over again!!!!! Ugh!!!!!!

I think you should have made the threat the first time you addressed it. DS12 exploded after DS10 had ignored both him and you, and DS12 didn't have any reason to think you were going to actually handle the issue after that (because it sounds like you usually don't).

Also, you don't have to let them play semantics. You can tell him he's smart enough to know he should stop when he's asked to stop; he doesn't need an explicit warning to know that he's doing the wrong thing.

 

[Southernmiss]

And when my kids couldn't get along I would assign them chores to do together and explain that they need a job to do together until they can do the job without fighting --such as clean the bathroom. If they continue to fight while cleaning the bathroom they get to clean the kitchen together. Still can't get along? Go wash the car. Etc. Usually only needed 2 jobs at most

 

[leebee]

First off....I did not yell. I just told him to let me handle it and to stop being nasty to his brother. DS12's take on it is why should I be punished if DS10 started annoying me. If I turn around and take them home then DS12 hates DS10 for it even worse than he already does. Can't bring DS10 home, he is too young to be left alone. I had DS12's friend in the car and I was bringing them to get some parts for their bikes. .

Oh and if I didn't warn DS10 and just punished him immediately he would have started saying...."what did I do? You didn't warn me".....over and over and over again!!!!! Ugh!!!!!!

I know it's hard, especially as you have to change your behavior as well as your sons changing theirs. However, STOP enabling them, stop making excuses for them. It doesn't matter what their "take" is on this: DS10 was intentionally being annoying, DS12 responded inappropriately, EVERYONE goes home, maybe with an apology to DS12's friends that this is happening but if the boys cannot treat each other with respect, this is the consequence. IF DS12 is as social as he sounds, maybe this is a bit of the currency you need. Sorry if he is embarrassed... tell him he needs to choose a more appropriate response, like ignoring your brother, next time. (and no, he doesn't need a free ride this time so you can suggest an appropriate response... he is 12, not 2.) Regarding DS10, all you need to say to him is "I asked you to stop and you are continuing.. we are going home." Ignore the "what did I do" ploy; he KNOWS what he is doing... he is the one choosing to taunt and annoy his big brother. That's the key... your kids are choosing these behaviors, or at least they were in the beginning. By now it's probably just the ingrained response, but at one point in the past, your kids chose to behave/react in these ways because it's what got the results they are hoping for!

Honestly, it sounds like you have a deep pile of issues here from years and years of letting the kids drive the bus. I would suggest family counseling NOW. Don't take it on yourself and think it's your responsibility, your fault, and just take yourself to the doctor's. This is a situation created by years and years of simply letting it all happen. Everyone is going to need to learn to change their behaviors, and having a therapist to set the rules and monitor the progress takes it off of you. You no longer are the "bad guy," you are just the follower of the rules, just like you are asking your kids and DH to be. Get some professional help now... not sure how you- any of you- can stand to live like this! It'd make me totally crazy!!!

 

[SarahWeasley]

Yes you are right......
It's the nasty way he treats his little brother that really makes me angry at him. DS10 does things to get his attention negatively because its the only attention he gets from him. It makes me so sad. DS10 has a heart of gold and really adores his brother. He is thoughtful, caring, generous, etc and gets nothing in return. DS12 has always been a very stubborn, tempered kid. We love him but don't like his personality at home. Outside of the home he is a good boy, is smart, and very witty. We try to hug him and he is cold to us. I know it is all because he is jealous of his little brother. Not sure how we can change those feelings. DS10 has needed more attention because of the health issues and he is the baby. Can't help that. If DS12 changed the way he treated his brother everything else would get worked out. That negativity towards him really sets me off.

Okay, that might be the underlying problem, but blaming DS12 for DS10 deciding to deliberately annoy DS12 is probably not going to make DS12 like DS10 more. DS10 was the one acting up in the car and DS12 got upset that you didn't seem to be handling it.

 

[lukenick1]

Oh I'm definitely going crazy over this. In fact its a little crazy that I have even posted this whole topic on here asking complete strangers for advice but believe me it has helped me so much and I am grateful for each and every one of you who chimed in with some positive advice. Thank God for the DIS Boards!!!!!

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Yes you are right......
It's the nasty way he treats his little brother that really makes me angry at him. DS10 does things to get his attention negatively because its the only attention he gets from him. It makes me so sad. DS10 has a heart of gold and really adores his brother. He is thoughtful, caring, generous, etc and gets nothing in return. DS12 has always been a very stubborn, tempered kid. We love him but don't like his personality at home. Outside of the home he is a good boy, is smart, and very witty. We try to hug him and he is cold to us. I know it is all because he is jealous of his little brother. Not sure how we can change those feelings. DS10 has needed more attention because of the health issues and he is the baby. Can't help that. If DS12 changed the way he treated his brother everything else would get worked out. That negativity towards him really sets me off.

Maybe if you treated them more equally then he wouldn't be jealous and would treat his brother better. You are saying that you expect him to treat his brother better first, and THEN you will treat him better. That is backwards. If I were him I would be angry too.

And to be honest, I think you have blinders on when it comes to your youngest. He is much at fault as your older son, yet you don't expect him to have to behave better to try and get good attention instead of bad.

 

[thedonduck]

Yes you are right......
It's the nasty way he treats his little brother that really makes me angry at him. DS10 does things to get his attention negatively because its the only attention he gets from him. It makes me so sad. DS10 has a heart of gold and really adores his brother. He is thoughtful, caring, generous, etc and gets nothing in return. DS12 has always been a very stubborn, tempered kid. We love him but don't like his personality at home. Outside of the home he is a good boy, is smart, and very witty. We try to hug him and he is cold to us. I know it is all because he is jealous of his little brother. Not sure how we can change those feelings. DS10 has needed more attention because of the health issues and he is the baby. Can't help that. If DS12 changed the way he treated his brother everything else would get worked out. That negativity towards him really sets me off.

But how can YOU change the way YOU treat him (the older one)?? I'm just reading here, have no obvious knowledge of your family, but here is my take.
You seem to "excuse" the behavior of the younger child because he is the baby, he has health issues, he is the caring, etc, etc. one. The older one you immediately jump on and don't seem to address the issues.

All kids need consequences. Appropriate ones at that. But you need to address them fairly. In your last situation, you punished the older one when the younger one was the root of the problem. As a teacher (ms/hs) you need to address expectations of behaviors, etc. from the get go and also consequences that will happen if they don't follow the expectations. "We are going to the store. You need to act like gentlemen in the car and as well as in the store. There is no rough housing or yelling in anywhere. If I have to ask you more than once to stop, when we get home you will lose X, Y, or Z for TIME amount". I did this with all of my students (as well as my own children now) all the way up the seniors. That way there is no need for warnings, yelling, etc.

You can't fix his behavior if you don't acknowledge your own issues. Your son seems to have issues with YOU, not with his brother. You say he is cold to you, honestly the way this all reads, YOU are also very cold to him. He is going through a lot of pre-teen hormonal stuff, on top of that it seems like the home dynamic is cold. I wouldn't want to get a hug from someone who pulls my hair or twist my ears.

Look back at what you have written. Sometimes you need to have an outsiders approach. Raising kids is difficult. No one has all the answers, but sometimes you just need to take a step back and really reflect on what YOU can change. Good luck

 

[leebee]

Yes you are right......
It's the nasty way he treats his little brother that really makes me angry at him. DS10 does things to get his attention negatively because its the only attention he gets from him. It makes me so sad. DS10 has a heart of gold and really adores his brother. He is thoughtful, caring, generous, etc and gets nothing in return. DS12 has always been a very stubborn, tempered kid. We love him but don't like his personality at home. Outside of the home he is a good boy, is smart, and very witty. We try to hug him and he is cold to us. I know it is all because he is jealous of his little brother. Not sure how we can change those feelings. DS10 has needed more attention because of the health issues and he is the baby. Can't help that. If DS12 changed the way he treated his brother everything else would get worked out. That negativity towards him really sets me off.

But to DS12, DS10 is NONE of these things. He's whiney, annoying, taunting, AND the favorite child. DS12 knows you prefer his little brother. Look at the adjectives you use for DS12... "stubborn, tempered, don't like his personality at home." You describe DS10 as "thoughtful, caring, generous, heart of gold." Maybe DS12 is cold when you hug him because, from his perspective, you don't mean it, you are just going through the motions, because to him, you clearly prefer his brother. Between DS10's behavior towards DS12, as well as thinking that DS10 has all your love, it's no wonder that he treats you all like crap.

I don't think DS12 changing his attitude towards his brother would work out anything. That's like me saying that if I lost 50 pounds, my life would be perfect. It won't change a THING. DS10 might have physical health issues, but DS12 is developing emotional health issues towards his brother. I know you are only one person, and there are only so many hours in a day, and you are balancing DS10's health issues, but you have to accept that DS12 has just as much need for your time, attention, consideration, and compassion, and find that for him, show that to him. I agree, it's hard when he is so nasty to everyone, but to him, I bet there are HUGE reasons for responding the way he does.

I just want to add this, because with online, written words, you cannot determine tone or intent... I am not saying these things to be mean to you. It honestly breaks my heart that your family has gotten to this point, and I hope you can reshape your family life so everyone is happy.