Palin breaks with McCain on gay marriage

[vt_disney_fan]

And my opinion is that you must know from personal experience and have had to intentionally choose your sexual orientation. Carry on.

And my opinion is you chose to be gay. Carry on.

 

[RickinNYC]

And my opinion is you chose to be gay. Carry on.

So you are confirming that you had to make a conscious choice to be heterosexual. Now that puts your posts in an entirely different light.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

I only have a few questions about your opinion...
How long did you struggle before you chose your heterosexuality?

I didn't struggle with it - I chose to remain the way that God created me, rather than fight against it and choose to live in a way that He did not create me.

Did you wake up one day and it came to you, or did you really have a hard time deciding?

As I said above, I chose to remain the way God created me. Wasn't hard.

Did you weigh the benefits of being straight vs. being gay, and then just decide that it would easier to be straight, so you ran with it?

No, I weighed the benefits of following God's order for my life vs. not following it, and that made it easy for me. Since He created us as male and female, with natural attractions to the opposite sex, it wasn't hard for me to continue as such.

Again, I approach this from a standpoint of it being a choice to be homosexual. For anyone who doesn't believe it is, I wouldn't expect them to agree with me, as many on here don't. Based on the different beliefs we have, one group of us must be wrong (either it is a choice, or it's not; there's no in between). I think the other group is, the other group thinks I am. I don't hope to convince you, and won't be convinced by you. I'm just giving my opinion. You can disagree, make fun of it, whatever makes you happy. It's still the way I believe, and while there are many people who agree with your opinions, there are many who agree with mine, too.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

Your opinion is just that...YOUR opinion. And you are entitled to that opinion. There's a difference in believing that somehow homosexuality is wrong or that it is a choice...and believing that we should deny rights to an entire group of people based on that so-called "choice".

If Sarah Palin had said, "I believe homosexuality is wrong." I would believe that she was entitled to hold that opinion.

What I have a PROBLEM with is the fact that she is using her opinion to deny an entire group of people basic and equal rights.

That's the crux of this argument here.

Not that she is not entitled to her beliefs.

But, that she would support legislation that would deny an entire group of people equal rights.

It is one thing to hold certain personal and religious beliefs. It is quite another to spin those beliefs into a denial of civil rights.

And it's YOUR opinion as to what you believe "civil rights" are, and what groups they should apply to. Your stance isn't any different than mine, Goofy, we're just coming down on different sides of the aisle. You believe that gay couples should be afforded civil rights, I don't. As such, you are OK with those rights being law, and I'm not. We disagree.

 

[RickinNYC]

VT_Disney_Fan, you said all that before under your previous DIS name and you confirmed back then that you did make a conscious effort to live life as heterosexual. That's cool with me. You admitted it back then so please don't backpedal. I wish you, your wife and kids the best in your life choices and will follow suit in your prayers that all goes well.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

Thanks for the honesty.

I used to think similarly, and then a girl asked me if I thought I could choose to be attracted to men.

END OF DISCUSSION.

I believe it is possible; easier for some (much easier), harder for others (much harder), but possible. Depends on what you're willing to give in to.

REAL END OF DISCUSSION.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

I'm pretty sure that if I underwent transgender surgery, I'd end up as a lesbian. How does that map into this?

Confirms your odd, which I already thought.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

So why is your opinion more important than someone else's and why is your religion more important than mine? Better yet, why do we have laws based on your opinions and your religious beliefs?

If anything, I would think your opinion would be less valid than a gay person's opinion. Are you gay? Do you know how it feels to be gay? Then why do you think your opinion that "sexual orientation is NOT based on genetics...yada, yada, yada..." is more valid than the person who actually IS gay and CAN tell you how it feels?

Why does anyone think THEIR opinion is more valid than anyone else's? Because it's there opinion, and they (usually) have reasons to support that opinion. We disagree - that won't change. I'll fight to have my opinions heard and legislated, as will you. No different, other than we differ on what we're fighting for (or against). If you say otherwise, it means you inherently think you're right. Of course, so do I, yet you say it's just my opinion. See the circle?

 

[vt_disney_fan]

Of course I believe it's a choice - I don't shy away from that. And again, I'm not expecting anyone to be convinced otherwise, or to change their minds - I won't, why should you, right? I'm just giving my opinions, as others on here are doing.

You all are entitled to yours, same as me. I don't hate you, I just disagree with you. It's really that simple.

 

[RickinNYC]

Of course I believe it's a choice - I don't shy away from that. And again, I'm not expecting anyone to be convinced otherwise, or to change their minds - I won't, why should you, right? I'm just giving my opinions, as others on here are doing.

You all are entitled to yours, same as me. I don't hate you, I just disagree with you. It's really that simple.

Again, best of luck to you in your life choices. I only hope you can continue to be happy and pray that all goes well.

 

[soupy11]

Why does anyone think THEIR opinion is more valid than anyone else's? Because it's there opinion, and they (usually) have reasons to support that opinion. We disagree - that won't change. I'll fight to have my opinions heard and legislated, as will you. No different, other than we differ on what we're fighting for (or against). If you say otherwise, it means you inherently think you're right. Of course, so do I, yet you say it's just my opinion. See the circle?

Great to hear.

 

[Master Mason]

Yes and in both Plessy and Brown everyone (even the attorneys for Plessy and Brown) agreed that the laws were equal in terms of treating both races the same and providing equal accommodations.

For both Harlan and Warren (in Brown) they can only get to their conclusion by stretching the meaning of "equal protection" beyond the obvious and appealing to this idea of a badge of inferiority or psychological harm. The Brown case hinges on the claim that de jure segregation causes black children psychological harm. Where in the constitution does it indicate that "equal" means anything to do with psychological harm? Since when is that the plain meaning of the words "equal protection of law"?

I do not understand how a committed textualist (which is the philosophy it seems you are espousing) could accept the Brown decision (or Harlan's dissent in Plessy). The plain meaning of the words "equal protection of law" have nothing to do with psychological consequences or the badge of inferiority which is experienced by those who fall under it.

Any sort of strict constructualism seems to fail with regard to Brown. Indeed, Justice Rehnquist wrote a brief opposing Brown when he was a law clerk for one of the justices at the time in which he essentially accused the court of liberal activism. Gee, that sure sounds familiar! (Of course, 20 years later when it came time to become a Supreme Court justice he denied that when he said "I think Plessy was right" he actually meant "I". But of course he had to say that--he couldn't have gotten confirmed if he had announced in front of the entire country that he didn't think de jure segregation was a constitutional problem.)

The way I see it, if a proper textualist interpretation of "equal protection" takes it to mean "you can't have a law that treats the races equally in all tangible ways, yet which gives an intangible stamp of inferiority to one race" then it's also textualy appropriate to nterpret "equal protection" to mean "you can't have a law that treats people of different sexual orientations equally in all tangible ways, yet which gives an intangible stamp of inferiority to a group of people with one particular sexual orientation" either. And that will clearly make laws which restrict marriage to male-female couples (or which grants only civil unions to gay couples but marriage to male-female couples) unconstitutional. (And you don't have to declare that marriage is a right granted by the constitution to do this, any more than Brown declared elementary and secondary education a right granted by the constitution.)

So as promised, I have been mulling this over, I am still not sure what I think yet, but am going though it in my head and am now going to sort of do the net equivalant of talking out loud to myself.

My first thoughts are seperate but equal is not equal, this is born out to me by the images I have seen my entire life, such as ragged railroad coaches with substandard food for the blacks and nice cars with good food for the whites, crappy little bathrooms for the blacks and decent ones for the whites etc.. There was no attempts made to actually make things equal, one was given superior stuff to the other.

The law requires things to be equal. That was obviously not the case, at least to my eyes. So obviously to me, the seperate but equal, did not give equal.

I then move on to this part "I do not understand how a committed textualist (which is the philosophy it seems you are espousing) could accept the Brown decision (or Harlan's dissent in Plessy). The plain meaning of the words "equal protection of law" have nothing to do with psychological consequences or the badge of inferiority which is experienced by those who fall under it." And have a question. Why would you say that under a strict constructionist point of view that equal protection under the law would not mean equal protection from psycholgical consequences? If the whites were protected from that, should not also the blacks be protected from it as equal protection?

So, I am not seeing an issue with the Brown Case, or Harlen's disent in Plessy from a constructionist point of view. But I admit that my views are also coming from someone that was born at the very end of the civil rights movement and by the time I was old enough to understand things, this was the way it was, so I will forever look though those glasses.

Now to the last part... This is where I am struggling the most, and maybe I am not understanding, maybe I have not evolved enough, who knows. Perhaps you can help me to see your side, perhaps not.

First as I have said all along, I am in favor of Civil Unions, so I am not fighting against you on that, I am just trying to wrap my head around this current discussion.

So questions. I can not marry or form a civil union with another male at this time either, so are you being treated unequally, if the law is applied to everyone? Is sexuality a basis for being a "protected class"? If you go with it being equal because no one can marry/form a civil union with their own sex, are there compelling reasons to change that law?

Please feel free to respond to my ramblings, which is what they currently are as I work though this.

 

[ChrizJen]

I didn't struggle with it - I chose to remain the way that God created me, rather than fight against it and choose to live in a way that He did not create me.

So you're admitting that your sexuality was not a choice...Just the way God made you. OK, so far there's no difference between you and me...

As I said above, I chose to remain the way God created me. Wasn't hard..

Well, then I envy you!! It was a REALLY, super hard struggle for me to try and live according to how people like you thought I was supposed to live. I never found peace until I finally realized that I should live the way God created me.

No, I weighed the benefits of following God's order for my life vs. not following it, and that made it easy for me. Since He created us as male and female, with natural attractions to the opposite sex, it wasn't hard for me to continue as such.

Again, I approach this from a standpoint of it being a choice to be homosexual. For anyone who doesn't believe it is, I wouldn't expect them to agree with me, as many on here don't. Based on the different beliefs we have, one group of us must be wrong (either it is a choice, or it's not; there's no in between). I think the other group is, the other group thinks I am. I don't hope to convince you, and won't be convinced by you. I'm just giving my opinion. You can disagree, make fun of it, whatever makes you happy. It's still the way I believe, and while there are many people who agree with your opinions, there are many who agree with mine, too.

I'm not making fun of you, or your opinion. Just trying to better understand it.
So you've had feelings for women before, and you suppressed them? In the name of following God's word? Because that would really be the only way that your lifestyle would have ever been a "choice". It must be really difficult for you to live with all of the temptation to be with women. I don't envy you in your daily struggle to stay faithful to God's word.

But nevermind, because you've admitted that you just followed the way God created you...with a "natural attraction to the opposite sex". So it doesn't really take any work for you. I can completely understand that, and I'm fine with it. Because it was the way you were made. So there was really no choice for you. You went with what was natural for you.
Then you couldn't possibly understand what it's like for someone who was created differently than you were. Someone who, just like you, is just trying to live the way that God made them.

I'm sure that you can understand that sometimes God creates people who are differently abled than you are, people who have darker skin than you do, people who have lighter skin than you do, people who have curlier hair than you do, people who have straighter hair than you do...I could go on and on about all of the differences you can find in people...But I'm sure that you're well aware of most of them, and you accept the fact that none of them made a choice to have those differences. They were born that way.

But then why is it so difficult for you to understand that I could have been born the way that I am, and that this is exactly the way God wanted me to be???

Because you see, contrary to what you've been taught in your church, I never had a choice in the matter (Just like you never had a choice to make...if we're being honest. I think you're giving yourself way too much credit for "being faithful" to the way that God created you). I tried my best to live in accordance with what others thought I should be. It didn't work. So I stopped fighting what God meant for me to be, and I've been happy ever since.

But you go on judging me...I'll leave the judgement up to God.

 

[Cindy F]

Why does anyone think THEIR opinion is more valid than anyone else's? Because it's there opinion, and they (usually) have reasons to support that opinion. We disagree - that won't change. I'll fight to have my opinions heard and legislated, as will you. No different, other than we differ on what we're fighting for (or against). If you say otherwise, it means you inherently think you're right. Of course, so do I, yet you say it's just my opinion. See the circle?

The difference is my opinion is not based on something I do not understand nor does it seek to single out an entire group of people and ban them, by constitutional amendment, from entering into a legal contract that another group is allowed to enter.

See the difference? Probably not and to be very honest, I would be shocked if you did.
Do you understand that historically, governments built on limiting people's freedoms and/or enforcing religion generally do not last?
It's been my experience that people who feel the way you do are either miserably closeted (think Ted Haggard) or end up having a close family member come out to them. On one hand that is poetic justice on the other hand....it's terribly sad in both situations.

 

[Cindy F]

So you're admitting that your sexuality was not a choice...Just the way God made you. OK, so far there's no difference between you and me...





Well, then I envy you!! It was a REALLY, super hard struggle for me to try and live according to how people like you thought I was supposed to live. I never found peace until I finally realized that I should live the way God created me.





I'm not making fun of you, or your opinion. Just trying to better understand it.
So you've had feelings for women before, and you suppressed them? In the name of following God's word? Because that would really be the only way that your lifestyle would have ever been a "choice". It must be really difficult for you to live with all of the temptation to be with women. I don't envy you in your daily struggle to stay faithful to God's word.

But nevermind, because you've admitted that you just followed the way God created you...with a "natural attraction to the opposite sex". So it doesn't really take any work for you. I can completely understand that, and I'm fine with it. Because it was the way you were made. So there was really no choice for you. You went with what was natural for you.
Then you couldn't possibly understand what it's like for someone who was created differently than you were. Someone who, just like you, is just trying to live the way that God made them.

I'm sure that you can understand that sometimes God creates people who are differently abled than you are, people who have darker skin than you do, people who have lighter skin than you do, people who have curlier hair than you do, people who have straighter hair than you do...I could go on and on about all of the differences you can find in people...But I'm sure that you're well aware of most of them, and you accept the fact that none of them made a choice to have those differences. They were born that way.

But then why is it so difficult for you to understand that I could have been born the way that I am, and that this is exactly the way God wanted me to be???

Because you see, contrary to what you've been taught in your church, I never had a choice in the matter (Just like you never had a choice to make...if we're being honest. I think you're giving yourself way too much credit for "being faithful" to the way that God created you). I tried my best to live in accordance with what others thought I should be. It didn't work. So I stopped fighting what God meant for me to be, and I've been happy ever since.

But you go on judging me...I'll leave the judgement up to God.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

So you're admitting that your sexuality was not a choice...Just the way God made you. OK, so far there's no difference between you and me...

Actually, no, here's what I said: "I didn't struggle with it - I chose to remain the way that God created me, rather than fight against it and choose to live in a way that He did not create me." That doesn't say my sexuality WASN'T a choice - it says I CHOSE to stay the way God created me (and, I believe, everyone), and didn't CHOOSE to live in a way contrary to that. So, so far, there IS a difference between you and me...

Well, then I envy you!! It was a REALLY, super hard struggle for me to try and live according to how people like you thought I was supposed to live. I never found peace until I finally realized that I should live the way God created me.

Again, we're approaching this from 2 completely opposite perspectives, and we simply won't agree. I know your opinions, and you know mine, and they evidently won't change. As such, arguing about it is pointless. I just simply stated what I believe. I don't back away from it, nor do I hate you or anyone else because of it. I disagree with you, but don't hate you.

So you've had feelings for women before, and you suppressed them? In the name of following God's word? Because that would really be the only way that your lifestyle would have ever been a "choice". It must be really difficult for you to live with all of the temptation to be with women. I don't envy you in your daily struggle to stay faithful to God's word.

I have feelings for a woman everyday - because I'm a man. And I have feelings for my wife. Wait, are you under the impression that I'm a woman? If so, you can see where false assumptions get you... Yes, as a Christian, I have to daily suppress sinful things I want to do, b/c I know they're wrong. Happens all the time. People struggle with different sins - some might be eating, some might be alcohol, some might be overspending, it runs a wide range. It is a daily struggle to stay faithful to God's Word - He didn't say it would be easy. But it is rewarding.

But nevermind, because you've admitted that you just followed the way God created you...with a "natural attraction to the opposite sex". So it doesn't really take any work for you. I can completely understand that, and I'm fine with it. Because it was the way you were made. So there was really no choice for you. You went with what was natural for you.

Yes, I don't struggle with this particular area of sin myself. But I know others who do, unfortunately.

Then you couldn't possibly understand what it's like for someone who was created differently than you were. Someone who, just like you, is just trying to live the way that God made them.

Again, you're working under the assumption, which you believe wholeheartedly, that God created people with different sexual preferences. I don't believe He did. If you are able to state yours as fact, which you are essentially doing by making it an inherent assumption, then I can do the same, and we'll still be at the same place we were before - basic disagreement. It's a different outlook we each believe in, and we're on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. You won't believe I'm right, and I won't believe you're right, either. It is what it is.

I'm sure that you can understand that sometimes God creates people who are differently abled than you are, people who have darker skin than you do, people who have lighter skin than you do, people who have curlier hair than you do, people who have straighter hair than you do...I could go on and on about all of the differences you can find in people...But I'm sure that you're well aware of most of them, and you accept the fact that none of them made a choice to have those differences. They were born that way.

Agreed. I don't believe people choose their natural hair style (well, I suppose this can be debated, though ), their skin color, or their physical inabilities. I do agree with you on that. But the next step you're trying to proceed to, that people were also created with different sexual preferences, I don't believe. I could tell you the reasons, but you don't believe them either, so why bother, really?

But then why is it so difficult for you to understand that I could have been born the way that I am, and that this is exactly the way God wanted me to be???

See last part of answer above - you won't agree with whatever I say, so does it even matter why?

Because you see, contrary to what you've been taught in your church, I never had a choice in the matter (Just like you never had a choice to make...if we're being honest. I think you're giving yourself way too much credit for "being faithful" to the way that God created you).

Again, it's your opinon vs. my opinion, and you're attempting (again) to use your opinion as fact to show mine to be wrong. I don't accept that. I could do the same to you, and you wouldn't accept it. Square one, again, unfortunately. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I tried my best to live in accordance with what others thought I should be. It didn't work. So I stopped fighting what God meant for me to be, and I've been happy ever since.

I'm glad you think so. I always hope for everyone's happiness, as they live according to the true Word of God. I don't believe all people will reach it (either happiness or living according to the true Word of God), but it is possible, although difficult at times.

But you go on judging me...I'll leave the judgement up to God.

Where have I judged you? I've just said I disagree with you. You disagree with me - are you also judging me?

While I disagree with RickNYC on this issue, I do respect his ability to disagree in an agreeable tone.

 

[vt_disney_fan]

The difference is my opinion is not based on something I do not understand nor does it seek to single out an entire group of people and ban them, by constitutional amendment, from entering into a legal contract that another group is allowed to enter.

See the difference? Probably not and to be very honest, I would be shocked if you did.
Do you understand that historically, governments built on limiting people's freedoms and/or enforcing religion generally do not last?
It's been my experience that people who feel the way you do are either miserably closeted (think Ted Haggard) or end up having a close family member come out to them. On one hand that is poetic justice on the other hand....it's terribly sad in both situations.

No Cindy, I don't see the difference at all. We have differing views on a common topic, and we are each hoping that the law works according to our respective views. So you shouldn't be shocked, as I've lived up to your theory.

You are free to feel about me however you wish (closeted or anything else) - that is entirely up to you how to feel. I don't know you, so can't make any assumptions about your personality. I can only comment on the views you state - but I have no idea your basis for holding them, and no further idea about your personality. I do, however, know all my close family members well, and know that a "coming out" isn't in the works. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[Master Mason]

I do, however, know all my close family members well, and know that a "coming out" isn't in the works. Sorry to disappoint.

You know, I had a cousin that felt that way, right up until her husband told her he was leaving her for a guy.

 

[ChrizJen]

Why does anyone think THEIR opinion is more valid than anyone else's? Because it's there opinion, and they (usually) have reasons to support that opinion. We disagree - that won't change. I'll fight to have my opinions heard and legislated, as will you. No different, other than we differ on what we're fighting for (or against). If you say otherwise, it means you inherently think you're right. Of course, so do I, yet you say it's just my opinion. See the circle?

The fact is, yes. I do think I'm right. And I will fight for what I think is right. But the difference is that laws made based on what you think is right are laws that will affect an entire portion of the population, but will never have any affect on you. So why do you think that you should have a say in that (aside from your self-righteous idea that everyone should have to live according to your opinion)?

By fighting for what I think is right, I'm not imposing anything on you. I'm not forcing you to enter into a union with someone of the same sex. You can go on living your life exactly how you want to. I'm not trying to keep you from doing that. So go on with your crusade of exclusion and judgement. I'm sure that's exactly how God intended it.

I'll continue to prray for you.

 

[ChrizJen]

You know, I had a cousin that felt that way, right up until her husband told her he was leaving her for a guy.