Paid FP options coming soon to WDW?

[sparky68]

For perspective, for a 3 day stay it would be at least $1200 for our family of four, minimum, and once that's converted to Canadian funds it's $1500+. Quite honestly, no way do I see this being what actually happens. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot - not many of their normal (not DISboard) guests can or will pay that. And after having "free" FP+ for many years, it's going to create a lot of negative press.

Your free fast passes are not really free. Think about the current system. If you stay on site you get early booking for those "free "passes. You are limited to 3 a day forcing you to think your vacation needs to be longer to get even one fast pass for a popular or new attraction. So Disney has programmed you to believe you need to stay in their hotel, and for more days to get the most out of your free fast passes.
I would much prefer to stay at a hotel off site for a couple days and pay for a fast pass. Everything Disney does is to keep you in their Disney bubble and spending money at their hotels and theme parks.

 

[Drew729]

No, and Chapek literally stated something to this effect(listing least desirable to most desirable guests during an earnings call, AP's were the bottom of the list), their problem is the KIND of customers. Any way you slice it they are going to fill the parks to the point where it is uncomfortable and hinders the experience for those who do attend with long lines. Doesn't matter what they end up with, that is the new normal.

So, yes, their problem is they have to too many customers who are not spending the kind of money Disney knows they can get. Getting rid of AP's, Pushing new revenue on this lightning pass are ways to weed out the low money makers. This is reality now and honestly whether any of us like it or not it's going to net their shareholders way more money than what they had been doing. Remove all the emotion and the fact that you love Mickey Mouse and you love taking pictures of your kids on dumbo,etc... the entire DisneyWorld site exists for one reason and one reason only M O N E Y Walt's vision flew out the window probably 20 years ago. This is a business.

You nailed it. It is surprising that there are so many opinions on this topic and other guest experience related issues. All one has to do is listen to the CEO and it is clear that going forward you will pay more for a lesser experience or you will pay a premium for that same experience but you will get to do it faster

Seriously though, I would encourage anyone to listen to the earnings and investor calls objectively as possible. The COVID cover allows the removal or restructuring of the low margin parts of the park side of the business.

 

[Wandering Oaken]

What this latest bit of doom and misunderstanding does is ignore that FP is also a functional management tool for WDW. It does help mitigate wait times and does allow guests to get some degree of benefit built into their ticket purchase.

The only way one thinks the Lightning Pass is a possibility is if you're willing to think Disney views its parks the way Six Flag views its, as a daily destination for locals rather than a resort with these parks attached. I think WDW is more concerned with the resort aspects of the destination than daily attendance.

And, with the amount of money that is spent on a WDW vacation, I think there are resort guests that wouldn't balk at all $100/pp/pd. The last thing WDW wants is the optics of some people going over and over and over again while others wait in line -- the worse optics WDW could have would be a family seeing someone go through the line after seeing them go through the line before. So I don't think we'll ever seen anything like that. If they were to offer a Lightning pass, it would be more like the one-time-per-ride thing you see at Universal. And it'll cost at least $300.

I do think there's a chance that WDW will offer additional FPs for a price, but even the optics of that get tricky. Including FPs with a ticket is one things; assigning them a value opens another door I just don't think they'll want to go through. I don't think Disney wants to overtly say what a fast pass is worth, any more than they want to sell fireworks viewing spaces. Those things are add-ons to a desert party, or a club-level stay. Even the VIp tours are tours with a guide. I don't see WDW changing that model.

That's what you're missing. Disney doesn't care about optics at this point. I agree with what he said in the video. Disney has found out that they can do whatever they want to do and people are still going to pay the money to go to Disney. Of course they're going to charge for fast passes. And of course it's going to be expensive. They don't care. Because they know people are going to go and they're going to pay it.

 

[Liquidice]

I think people misunderstand the Lightning Pass concept - if implemented at a very high price, I don't think they expect everyone will opt in. It isn't a replacement for FastPass+. I am guessing here on the % but the expectation is probably that less than 10% will opt into it.

Perhaps one way they will guarantee a certain amount of Fastpass+ could be to do like Universal and provide it for "free" for Deluxe Resorts. That is just me copying Universal's idea and I have nothing to say that they will do this - just thinking of ways they might promote it.

But - Lightning Pass will create a premium experience for those willing to pay a premium amount of lets say $100 per person per day. Basically you're paying to not wait in any lines - but not everyone will do this, in fact most will not.

The virtual lines would be the equivalent to FastPass+ and everyone would likely get this for free. So instead of waiting in a line, lets pretend for a second that when you get to the park - you can choose 3 rides and it will tell you what time to arrive to line up in the standby line for this ride. Those rides will not allow standby riders unless you have a virtual pass (think like Rise of the Resistance, but you can pick 3 rides). Then after you ride all 3, you can pick 1 more ride to wait in line for. Because the rides will be virtual line only, they can keep the wait times in the standby side much lower, perhaps 30 mins or less once your time arrives. This isn't that much different than Fastpass+. While you're waiting for a virtual line - there will obviously be other things to do - shows and perhaps some rides will allow you to wait in the standby line - particularly rides with high capacity per hour that can move lots of people.

 

[0FF TO NEVERLAND]

I think people misunderstand the Lightning Pass concept - if implemented at a very high price, I don't think they expect everyone will opt in. It isn't a replacement for FastPass+. I am guessing here on the % but the expectation is probably that less than 10% will opt into it.

Perhaps one way they will guarantee a certain amount of Fastpass+ could be to do like Universal and provide it for "free" for Deluxe Resorts. That is just me copying Universal's idea and I have nothing to say that they will do this - just thinking of ways they might promote it.

But - Lightning Pass will create a premium experience for those willing to pay a premium amount of lets say $100 per person per day. Basically you're paying to not wait in any lines - but not everyone will do this, in fact most will not.

The virtual lines would be the equivalent to FastPass+ and everyone would likely get this for free. So instead of waiting in a line, lets pretend for a second that when you get to the park - you can choose 3 rides and it will tell you what time to arrive to line up in the standby line for this ride. Those rides will not allow standby riders unless you have a virtual pass (think like Rise of the Resistance, but you can pick 3 rides). Then after you ride all 3, you can pick 1 more ride to wait in line for. Because the rides will be virtual line only, they can keep the wait times in the standby side much lower, perhaps 30 mins or less once your time arrives. This isn't that much different than Fastpass+. While you're waiting for a virtual line - there will obviously be other things to do - shows and perhaps some rides will allow you to wait in the standby line - particularly rides with high capacity per hour that can move lots of people.

Yes but with fast pass I can pick the times I want when the window opens and I make my own schedule around it. With virtual, your at the will of Disney and the time THEY give you. I don’t like that. I like that with fast pass, I pick the times and can also change the times. I also don't like the idea of waking up at 7:00am to try and get into a " line ". At least with fast pass, I can start my times at like 10:00am and sleep in a little bit

And what happens if it fills up like rise? Gonna miss out on more rides. Meh I don’t like it. We’ll see what actually happens

 

[whiporee]

That's what you're missing. Disney doesn't care about optics at this point. I agree with what he said in the video. Disney has found out that they can do whatever they want to do and people are still going to pay the money to go to Disney. Of course they're going to charge for fast passes. And of course it's going to be expensive. They don't care. Because they know people are going to go and they're going to pay it.

I fear, my friend, that your hatred has clouded your perception. If WDW didn't care about optics, they'd be maskless and at 100 percent now. If they didn't care about optics, they'd have charged for FP all along.

Disney cares a lot about optics., I think Disney cares a lot about people feeling good about their visits. I think Disney caes a lot that people have a good time and have good feelings when they leave. I think they value that more than they value just about anything else.

Disney has known for a long time they can do whatever they want and people will come. They've known that for 50 years in Florida. But they keep trying to make the experience better. Not totally better, but better. The population of the country has grown 50 percent since Disney opened; the world's population has doubled, and more people are able to travel to the US. Dsney could, I'm sure, charge double what they do for entrance and people would come. But they don't. They still make the effort. And no matter what some people who are cynical, who are always looking for ways they are getting screwed in any situation, say I don't think that has changed. Nor do i think it will.

 

[ellbell]

I think people misunderstand the Lightning Pass concept - if implemented at a very high price, I don't think they expect everyone will opt in. It isn't a replacement for FastPass+. I am guessing here on the % but the expectation is probably that less than 10% will opt into it.

Perhaps one way they will guarantee a certain amount of Fastpass+ could be to do like Universal and provide it for "free" for Deluxe Resorts. That is just me copying Universal's idea and I have nothing to say that they will do this - just thinking of ways they might promote it.

But - Lightning Pass will create a premium experience for those willing to pay a premium amount of lets say $100 per person per day. Basically you're paying to not wait in any lines - but not everyone will do this, in fact most will not.

The virtual lines would be the equivalent to FastPass+ and everyone would likely get this for free. So instead of waiting in a line, lets pretend for a second that when you get to the park - you can choose 3 rides and it will tell you what time to arrive to line up in the standby line for this ride. Those rides will not allow standby riders unless you have a virtual pass (think like Rise of the Resistance, but you can pick 3 rides). Then after you ride all 3, you can pick 1 more ride to wait in line for. Because the rides will be virtual line only, they can keep the wait times in the standby side much lower, perhaps 30 mins or less once your time arrives. This isn't that much different than Fastpass+. While you're waiting for a virtual line - there will obviously be other things to do - shows and perhaps some rides will allow you to wait in the standby line - particularly rides with high capacity per hour that can move lots of people.

If that's the case though the vip tours are already this exact thing. Plus they cost about the same. The people who would buy the lightening passes are already paying for the VIP tours so why replace fastpasses with it.

 

[whiporee]

I think people misunderstand the Lightning Pass concept - if implemented at a very high price, I don't think they expect everyone will opt in. It isn't a replacement for FastPass+. I am guessing here on the % but the expectation is probably that less than 10% will opt into it.

Perhaps one way they will guarantee a certain amount of Fastpass+ could be to do like Universal and provide it for "free" for Deluxe Resorts. That is just me copying Universal's idea and I have nothing to say that they will do this - just thinking of ways they might promote it.

But - Lightning Pass will create a premium experience for those willing to pay a premium amount of lets say $100 per person per day. Basically you're paying to not wait in any lines - but not everyone will do this, in fact most will not.

The virtual lines would be the equivalent to FastPass+ and everyone would likely get this for free. So instead of waiting in a line, lets pretend for a second that when you get to the park - you can choose 3 rides and it will tell you what time to arrive to line up in the standby line for this ride. Those rides will not allow standby riders unless you have a virtual pass (think like Rise of the Resistance, but you can pick 3 rides). Then after you ride all 3, you can pick 1 more ride to wait in line for. Because the rides will be virtual line only, they can keep the wait times in the standby side much lower, perhaps 30 mins or less once your time arrives. This isn't that much different than Fastpass+. While you're waiting for a virtual line - there will obviously be other things to do - shows and perhaps some rides will allow you to wait in the standby line - particularly rides with high capacity per hour that can move lots of people.

This is the point people keep missing. IT WON'T BE $100. At $100, it's a waste of time because too many people will do it -- people who have already spent tens of thousands to be there. In order for it to be what you're suggesting -- a VIP-type experience -- teh number will have to be much, much higher. Like $300, or $400. That's the only way to get some exclusivity at the parks.

Just look at the history. Disney sold out EMM at $80 or so bucks plus admission for 45 minutes of ride time on three rides. People pay $75 a plate to have a group dinner with Cinderella. They'd blow through $100 Lightning Passes within seconds of them being offered. If they were to do them, they'd be priced about what the VIP tours are; an average of $350 per person for the day. And even then they'd sell them out.

 

[ellbell]

This is the point people keep missing. IT WON'T BE $100. At $100, it's a waste of time because too many people will do it -- people who have already spent tens of thousands to be there. In order for it to be what you're suggesting -- a VIP-type experience -- teh number will have to be much, much higher. Like $300, or $400. That's the only way to get some exclusivity at the parks.

Just look at the history. Disney sold out EMM at $80 or so bucks plus admission for 45 minutes of ride time on three rides. People pay $75 a plate to have a group dinner with Cinderella. They'd blow through $100 Lightning Passes within seconds of them being offered. If they were to do them, they'd be priced about what the VIP tours are; an average of $350 per person for the day. And even then they'd sell them out.

The actual VIP tour gives you the VIP experience. Why just shift the money from one for pay service to another. If anything if this is what the "Lightning passes" are suppose to be I would think they would replace VIP tours over fastpasses. From the way the interpretation is being described in the last few posts it's almost exactly the same except for a few differences. Basically no transportation or guide.

 

[sparky68]

Yes indeed. I've been fearing this, and it might just be the straw that breaks this camel's back. They've been pandering to a bourgeoisie sense of privilege and exclusive experience for several years now, which is beginning to border on tacky. I'm not knocking nice things - I go to wdw yearly - I just can't stand the elitism that's now encompassing a trip to a theme park, even if it is the greatest theme park in the world. It's slimy.

For real? You go yearly and are put off by elitism? Did I miss the sarcasm tag?

 

[Wandering Oaken]

I fear, my friend, that your hatred has clouded your perception. If WDW didn't care about optics, they'd be maskless and at 100 percent now. If they didn't care about optics, they'd have charged for FP all along.

Disney cares a lot about optics., I think Disney cares a lot about people feeling good about their visits. I think Disney caes a lot that people have a good time and have good feelings when they leave. I think they value that more than they value just about anything else.

Disney has known for a long time they can do whatever they want and people will come. They've known that for 50 years in Florida. But they keep trying to make the experience better. Not totally better, but better. The population of the country has grown 50 percent since Disney opened; the world's population has doubled, and more people are able to travel to the US. Dsney could, I'm sure, charge double what they do for entrance and people would come. But they don't. They still make the effort. And no matter what some people who are cynical, who are always looking for ways they are getting screwed in any situation, say I don't think that has changed. Nor do i think it will.

"Hatred"??? Okay.

 

[Liquidice]

Yes but with fast pass I can pick the times I want when the window opens and I make my own schedule around it. With virtual, your at the will of Disney and the time THEY give you. I don’t like that. I like that with fast pass, I pick the times and can also change the times.

And what happens if it fills up like rise? Gonna miss out on more rides. Meh I don’t like it. We’ll see what actually happens

Right, I'm not saying Virtual Lines will be exactly the same as FastPass+ ... I mean technically, Disney could allow you to pick a Virtual Line time ahead of time, the same way FastPass+ works today. Who knows, maybe they will?

Yeah I'm not sure what happens if the queue fills up entirely - I guess this would just be another part of the way Disney would work - if they make a change like this.

I think the concept of virtual lines is intriguing though - Disney should like it because instead of waiting in a line, you have the opportunity to do something else like spend money on food or shopping, etc.. and then come back and ride the ride.

If that's the case though the vip tours are already this exact thing. Plus they cost about the same. The people who would buy the lightening passes are already paying for the VIP tours so why replace fastpasses with it.

Yeah this definitely has the potential to replace VIP tours, or at least supplement them - sort of an "in between" pricing that might be cheaper than VIP Tours but gives you a similar experience except you're on your own. VIP Tours cost $425-650 per hour, perhaps this might cause Disney to raise the price of VIP Tours a bit and fit Lightning Pass in between? The thing is Disney wants to clear the Fastpass+ queue so Lightning Pass, VIP Tour, Club 33, Golden Oak, etc can use it. I get the impression from Chapek on profitability per guest that they want to make the "Lightning Lane" an exclusive sort of thing. If they can figure out how to shorten the standby queues to be virtual and so regular guests don't have to wait more than ~30 mins in line and therefore freeing up what is the Fastpass+ queue now - expect them to want to monetize that Fastpass+ Queue.

This is the point people keep missing. IT WON'T BE $100. At $100, it's a waste of time because too many people will do it -- people who have already spent tens of thousands to be there. In order for it to be what you're suggesting -- a VIP-type experience -- teh number will have to be much, much higher. Like $300, or $400. That's the only way to get some exclusivity at the parks.

Just look at the history. Disney sold out EMM at $80 or so bucks plus admission for 45 minutes of ride time on three rides. People pay $75 a plate to have a group dinner with Cinderella. They'd blow through $100 Lightning Passes within seconds of them being offered. If they were to do them, they'd be priced about what the VIP tours are; an average of $350 per person for the day. And even then they'd sell them out.

You're probably right - $100pp might be too low. I just have used that as the starting point. Universal Express is around $231 (1 time per ride) - $261 (unlimited rides) for a peak day like July 4th, but as low as $70 (1 ride) - $100 (Unlimited) for a Tuesday in September (low peak). So its feasible for low peak season $100 might be the price but during peak season like Holidays it could go as high as $300?

Disney could also cap the number of Lightning Passes they sell per day per park too.

 

[pigletto]

Sometimes I think they intentionally “float” rumors to see what the reaction will be.

Let’s take that a step further .. float ridiculous rumours so people are relieved when the slightly less ridiculous version is officially announced.

 

[ellbell]

Yeah this definitely has the potential to replace VIP tours, or at least supplement them - sort of an "in between" pricing that might be cheaper than VIP Tours but gives you a similar experience except you're on your own. VIP Tours cost $425-650 per hour, perhaps this might cause Disney to raise the price of VIP Tours a bit and fit Lightning Pass in between?

Why would disney raise the price on the VIP tour but then offer the same option with minor changes for a lesser charge. A VIP tour includes 10 people as well so on some days the VIP tour would end up being cheaper for a large family. There would be no point to offering both. The people who would end up buying a lightning pass in your interpretation are already buying VIP tours. Why would people buy the VIP tours if they are buying the lightning passes. The market can only be spread so thin for certain niche products.

 

[Liquidice]

Why would disney raise the price on the VIP tour but then offer the same option with minor changes for a lesser charge. A VIP tour includes 10 people as well so on some days the VIP tour would end up being cheaper for a large family. There would be no point to offering both. The people who would end up buying a lightning pass in your interpretation are already buying VIP tours. Why would people buy the VIP tours if they are buying the lightning passes. The market can only be spread so thin for certain niche products.

Maybe it replaces the VIP Tour then I dunno. I can see there still being a place for VIP Tours for people who want a guide to take them everywhere - but maybe it would be raised up in price enough that only celebrities and ultra rich could afford it.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on what Disney will do? You seem to have good ideas on what they will/won't do and what makes sense / doesn't make sense.

 

[Loro]

All this panic about something that may or may not happen. FP+ seems to be coming back. What happens later is another question, but perhaps let's wait and see what actually comes before we get out the pitchforks? I still say it'll likely be a combination of free plus extras for a fee and/or for hotel guests. It just makes the most sense.

 

[ellbell]

Maybe it replaces the VIP Tour then I dunno. I can see there still being a place for VIP Tours for people who want a guide to take them everywhere - but maybe it would be raised up in price enough that only celebrities and ultra rich could afford it.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on what Disney will do? You seem to have good ideas on what they will/won't do and what makes sense / doesn't make sense.

The celebrities and super rich already have services available to them. If they were to add this I could see it replacing VIP tours not fastpass and having an upcharge for a guide.

Eta: I'm not naive enough to believe there won't be some kind of charge for some kind of fastpass but I also don't believe that Disney is going to drive away what made them Disney completely (meaning that Disney is for everyone). I'm not sure what it will look like but I think there will be at least se of the same aspects of the current system involved.

 

[ellbell]

All this panic about something that may or may not happen. FP+ seems to be coming back. What happens later is another question, but perhaps let's wait and see what actually comes before we get out the pitchforks? I still say it'll likely be a combination of free plus extras for a fee and/or for hotel guests. It just makes the most sense.

Nobody is panicking it's just discussion.

 

[0FF TO NEVERLAND]

Universals express pass works because you can buy 1 day unlimited pass to both parks, and for the most part ride everything. I buy those passes because I go to universal for 1 day.

I don't think the same works for Disney because people plan week vacations, and consider it their home away from home. Universal price points will never work at Disney in that regard

People pay for after hours events yes, but that is a completely different experience. Being there at night with minimal people. That's special. I didn't really do after hours cause of going on rides alot. I did it cause it was just a cool experience. And it was =]

 

[Loro]

Nobody is panicking it's just discussion.

Some of it seems like panic from what I've read. If I'm mistaken and am wrong I apologize.