Owners aren't FL residents?

[lorenni]

But residency isn't really the issue here, getting the discounts that Disney offers to "residents" is the issue as I'm understanding this. It's not a legal residency question.

Agreed - but even Disney is using "resident" in the legal/tax sense when it offers discounts. Meaning that in order to qualify for the FL resident discount you need to be a legal resident of Florida.

I know some DVC discounts are comparable to the resident discount but I'm appalled that any salesperson would claim that owning property in FL would bestow residency status or qualify the owner for resident discounts. Hopefully that was just a misunderstanding.

 

[Dean]

Agreed - but even Disney is using "resident" in the legal/tax sense when it offers discounts. Meaning that in order to qualify for the FL resident discount you need to be a legal resident of Florida.

In a way yes but not to that degree. They are requiring the type of documents that could qualify one as a resident but aren't requiring legal residence itself. One can be a legal resident of another state and still meet the requirements for the discounts. If we wanted to have the discussion on legal residence, while one can't be a legal resident of but one state at a time you can change residence at will if you meet requirements including multiple times during a month or year.

 

[twinsouvenirs]

As an aside, this clause isn't really about Florida residency so much as Reedy Creek Improvement District residency. WDW exists in what amounts to a privately-owned government, complete with two "cities". But, the only legal residents of RCID are Disney employees, so that Disney controls all elections within the District. This is why the land under Golden Oak (and before that, Celebration) was de-annexed from the District before it was developed---to ensure that GO residents could not vote in RCID elections. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reedy_Creek_Improvement_District

I was so impressed by Disney on that--I was wondering how they'd finally ceded some voting rights (since Reedy is based on land ownership which is another legal question but not likely to be challenged any time soon) but it absolutely makes sense to get that intent disclaimer or someone might be able to challenge such under constitutional grounds--it likely wouldn 't be successful because of the many friends Disney has in the FL statehouse.... but judges/justices are unpredictable when in robes.

 

[jodifla]

Disney offers Florida resident passes to part-time residents, but you have to have proper proof (bank statements, utility bills, etc.) Owning DVC doesn't qualify, instead renting or owning other property in Florida does.

 

[Brian Noble]

Disney is apparently buiding protections into the sales and transfer materials

I suspect it is similar to Celebration, which has similar covenants, IIRC. The excellent book Married to the Mouse goes into some detail about how Celebration was developed/managed.

I was so impressed by Disney on that

Another little tidbit I learned from Married to the Mouse: the statute creating RCID was drafted entirely by Disney lawyers, and passed essentially without any edits.

The Mouse is one clever rat.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I suspect it is similar to Celebration, which has similar covenants, IIRC. The excellent book Married to the Mouse goes into some detail about how Celebration was developed/managed.


Another little tidbit I learned from Married to the Mouse: the statute creating RCID was drafted entirely by Disney lawyers, and passed essentially without any edits.

The Mouse is one clever rat.

Married to the Mouse is one of the best quick reads I have ever read and should be required reading for anyone in love with Disney, especially as much as we DVC'ers are.

I am glad I fell in love with the Mouse first before I read it, though.

It did open my eyes, even then, that Disney is very much a corporation looking first and foremost, after its stockholders (Which it should, BTW, but many times as Disney lovers, we get lost in that essential piece.).

 

[WilsonFlyer]

As far as the "The salesman told be we would qualify as FL residents." thing goes, I'm pretty sure it is a violation of FL Timeshare Law to make such a statement. I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere on this or another board before with regards to statements like this.

I think I read that making such a statement would, at a minimum, make a salesman subject to immediate termination (Maybe that was a DVD thing?), and at worst, I believe there may be criminal and/or civil liabilities as well.

 

[Dean]

As far as the "The salesman told be we would qualify as FL residents." thing goes, I'm pretty sure it is a violation of FL Timeshare Law to make such a statement. I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere on this or another board before with regards to statements like this.

I think I read that making such a statement would, at a minimum, make a salesman subject to immediate termination (Maybe that was a DVD thing?), and at worst, I believe here may be criminal and/or civil liabilities as well.

I doubt it but the issue would be proving it, you'd need more than verbal he said/she said to pursue it, esp since you sign that verbal representations aren't binding when you buy retail.

 

[doctornick]

That's odd - I could have sworn or DVC tour guide told us that as DVC owners we receive FL res discounts. Perhaps he meant that owners receive the same AP discount as residents, but didn't use the best wording.

That happened to us as well. Our guide made it very clear that we would be considered FL residents for the purposes of purchasing tickets. I was very disappointed on our first trip after my parents bought DVC that we could not get "regular" park tickets for the FL resident price.

I fully understand that we are not eligible, but am disappointed that the guide lied or was mistaken about this.

 

[morgan729]

First, I'm wondering if a secondary reason Disney doesn't want to give an possible argument for residency would be to avoid the protections folks acquire with their "residence"-- squatters, non-paying tenants, etc are time consuming and costly to evict. No such rights for vacation.

Second, it seems like giving advice on the effect on residency status is giving legal advice, which is a crime for non-lawyers, at least here in Texas. I'm betting that Florida has similar laws prohibiting non-lawyers from giving legal advice.

Either way though, crappy to overtly mislead people.

 

[twinsouvenirs]

First, I'm wondering if a secondary reason Disney doesn't want to give an possible argument for residency would be to avoid the protections folks acquire with their "residence"-- squatters, non-paying tenants, etc are time consuming and costly to evict. No such rights for vacation. Second, it seems like giving advice on the effect on residency status is giving legal advice, which is a crime for non-lawyers, at least here in Texas. I'm betting that Florida has similar laws prohibiting non-lawyers from giving legal advice. Either way though, crappy to overtly mislead people.

i totally agree (unauthorized practice of law is illegal here too in OH) but i am not sure this rises to the level of legal advice (i.e. we'll give you the FL discount if you buy in) unless they are truly indicating under the laws of FL you will be a resident of the state.

 

[drusba]

Salesmen making representatons on your being treated as a FL resident entitled to discounts are not engaging in the unauthorized practice of law. Basically anyone can tell you what they think the law is. It does not arise to unauthorized practice of law unless either they claim to be lawyers and you are retaining them to give legal advice, or they are actually offering and performing services that only lawyers are allowed to provide (LegalZoom.com has faced serveral lawsuits in several states on that issue).

The issue for the salesmen is simply whether it is a misrepresentation. If it is, and it is material to your decison to purchase, you potentially have two remedies. You can attempt to rescind your purchase and get your money back, or you can affirm your purchase and seek damages equal to to the difference in the value of what you bought as represented and the value it actually is. If the conduct is considered egregious and malicious you might also get punitive damages. Defenses by Disney would include; (a) the misrep was not made (particularly in oral communications that becomes an issue of of who is to be believed; (b) even if made it is not a misrepresentation (as some have already noted saying you are entitled to Florida discounts for tickets could be construed as true in refrerence to APs where the discount is the same); (c) it is a misrep of the law not of fact and you cannot rely on misreps of the law given by a non-lawyer as you are charged with knowing the law as well as any non-lawyer (that defense is not clear cut and sometimes misreps of the law can be actionable particularly if involves any law that might be complex); (d) you cannot assert reasonable relience on the misrep because the documents you were given at time of sale disclaim that you are a Florida resident and your faiure to read the documents is not an excuse for your unreasoanble belief (that is another defense that is not cut and dry but a potential barrier to your claim; (e) the misarep was not in fact material to your decison to purchase (another factual issue).

So if an oral misrepresentaiton is made, you potentially have a claim, but many hurdles to overcome with a significant chance of losing, and you would need to hire a lawyer and the cost of actually pursuing such a claim, including legal fees, could easily be 10 or more times what you paid for the points and you would spend countless hours pursuing the case including for depositions and regular communications with the lawyer. In other words, you have a case that may financially be very unappealing. If you pursue the claim under a Consumer Fraud Act (might be possible) you may be able to recover your legal fees and 3X your damages.

As to criminal charges or possble fines against Disney or the salesman, those are possible but it is not going to happen for any one misrep. Unless the prosecutor believes there is a pattern and practice of misreps going on which are sanctioned by Disney, he is highy unlikely to pursue any criminal charges and fines. What usually happens if Disney learns of a problem, it is treated as an employee issue and if serious enough one for possible termination.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

The simple answer is that residency and deeded real estate ownership are two entirely different things.

There are plenty of Florida residents who rent apartments. They don't own any real estate in the state. But they live, work, vote, and have drivers licenses in Florida. They get Florida resident discounts from Disney.

There are plenty of out-of-state owners of Florida real estate. They owns houses, hotels, apartment buildings, office buildings, and retail malls. But they reside in another state. They don't get Florida resident discounts from Disney.

Here's what Disney expects as proof of Florida residency for discount purposes: https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/florida-residents/validation-requirements/

 

[lesroi]

As far as the "The salesman told be we would qualify as FL residents." thing goes, I'm pretty sure it is a violation of FL Timeshare Law to make such a statement. I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere on this or another board before with regards to statements like this.

I think I read that making such a statement would, at a minimum, make a salesman subject to immediate termination (Maybe that was a DVD thing?), and at worst, I believe there may be criminal and/or civil liabilities as well.

It's definitely a violation and a fun way to lose your Real Estate license or get a fine. As a Realtor here, I would encourage you to report anyone who treats you with such dishonesty! Though as a Buyer you should do your due diligence to make sure you are not being sold a bill of goods.

BTW, you absolutely do NOT need a lawyer to file a grievance against a Realtor. Timeshare salespeople are licensed Real Estate agents here in Florida and bound by the same rules as those of us who sell residential Real Estate. (i.e., HONEST and FAIR dealings.)

 

[Dean]

It's definitely a violation and a fun way to lose your Real Estate license or get a fine. As a Realtor here, I would encourage you to report anyone who treats you with such dishonesty! Though as a Buyer you should do your due diligence to make sure you are not being sold a bill of goods.

BTW, you absolutely do NOT need a lawyer to file a grievance against a Realtor. Timeshare salespeople are licensed Real Estate agents here in Florida and bound by the same rules as those of us who sell residential Real Estate. (i.e., HONEST and FAIR dealings.)

But you've got to have proof that goes beyond the level of yourself and anyone with you plus you've have to convince the governing body that it was willful and not just a misunderstanding. Short of a class action situation with many people saying the same thing independently or a written statement by the party in question, it's essentially an impossible task. There are companies where sales staff are MUCH further out on this limb than being discussed here without real risk to themselves or their company. The fact that we're talking verbal and you sign a legal document that says verbal representations are not binding is a very big hurdle to get over.