OT: Did you see Jenny McCarthy on Oprah?

[Aristomommy]

I can share my experience with you without a debate . DD was vaccinated on schedule and DS is vaccinated but delayed schedule. We travel internationally every year and you may be surprised what illnesses are still very common in many countries. Of course there is a risk with the vaccinations, but I would be looking at other environmental factors for autism before vaccinations. DS has been on a delayed schedule, because i don't want him to receive vaccinations when he is in a middle of an asthma attack, which has been the case a few times during his well visits. He is also very sensitive and his Pediatrician is very respectful of that. Our kids get their flu shots every year because they can get very ill and hospitalized from asthma complications.

 

[NemoMOm]

Just another observation since as parents it is a concerning topic. Alot of research also shows that the mercury is not just in vaccines. In Hong Kong and China, autism is being diagnosed at an alarming rate. They think that environmental toxins are the culprit. The people consume a lot of fish so they think mercury is the cause. They have also found that certain children have a gene that makes them more likely to develop autism when toxins are introduced. There are some great websites out there. Some even that talk about what society is trying to do as a whole and people whom have recovered from autism!

 

[memobrien]

The autism debate is such a great and complicated one. I worked for many years with adult with developmental disabilities. A LARGE percentage of my students were very profound on the autism spectrum. Not to discount parents who have children who are autistic, but I think that it’s a natural react for them to want to blame something. The horrible thing about autism is that you generally have these children who seemingly are developing without any issues, then suddenly something happens. Wouldn’t you want an explanation too? So I do think that feeling is a big part of how they feel.

I understand researching and learning more about the vaccination process, not because of the “autism factor” but because it is a medicine my child is receiving. And I think research is always good….as long as it is reliable and creditable information. I’ve talked to parents who have literally said well I don’t think that I’m going to vaccinate because I hear it’s not good. But they have no understanding of why that might or might not be. Personally I think it’s also “not good” to expose your child to an illness that is 100% curable with medication but could be life threatening without.

I think that there are so many factors to all of this and so much we have to learn. This also makes me thing about the rise in infertility…. I barely know ANYONE that got pregnant and carried that pregnancy without some kind of medical intervention. It makes me wonder what it is in our environment or what we are taking in that is causing this huge rise. I wonder if the two aren’t related. PLEASE DON”T GET ME WRONG…I am not saying infertility is causing the autism spike. I’m saying that I wonder if the same factors causing the fertility issues are cause thing rise in autism?


maura

 

[eliza61]

I've heard there is a lot of hostility with peds when they think you might not vaccinate (probably because they've seen the awful diseases kids in other countries get).

If there are any nurses or peds on this board, I'd love to hear from you. No doubt this Oprah show (she reaches so many people) is going to resonate in the peds offices now.

I think you'd be pretty surprise nowadays. Most peds (or at least the ones I work with) are aware of the controversery and try to be sensitive to the issue.

 

[mjantz]

I work with a woman whose youngest child is severely autistic. I asked her point-blank what she thought about the autism/vaccine link. Her response was that she did not believe there was any connection. In her opinion, her son showed signs of autism even before he was vaccinated.

I believe there may be some small connection but it is so convuluted (probably having to do with timing, genetics/genetic make-up of the child & other environmental factors) that it is short-sided to say 'This vaccine causes autism'.

 

[amyhughes]

My son who has a speech delay and is very STRONG willed was "described" as autistic by his speech therapist even though he is not. He is developing correctly, but occassionally does the hand flapping thing, or stares into space. However there are so many other factors she didn't take into consideration.

I think that right now this is a "hot button" issue, and the umbrella is HUGE! The spectrum ranges from fits and staring off into space to severe development delays. We were seriously considering testing him until I spoke with his Ped. She interviewed us, and spoke with him looks at us and goes, "Get a new speech therapist."

My point is this term is being bantered about so readily that what we would have thought of as eccentric behavior or "touched" 50-60 years ago is now being labeled differently. Is it ALL autism, I don't think so. Are there autistic kids out there who need the treatments, medications etc. Yes. But I worry about mis-diagnosing. Especially when the children are tested at a very young age.

I think right now we as humans cannot comprehend why this is going on. We just keep looking at what goes into our kids bodies that we have no control over. If it were the mercury I have to agree with the previous posters that it wouldn't be thriving in countries that vaccinate differently without mercury dirivitives.

 

[DisneyPhD]

After reading up and talking with women (on mothering.com) it isn't even autism that concerns me the most about vaccinations. It is a few causes of people who children have died or been severely damaged by them that scares the pants off me.

It wasn't until my kids were mostly vaccinated that I started looking into it and really learning about them. My youngest had delayed vaccinations because of her egg allergy, she was on time otherwise. She did have a major bump and bruise from the MMR, but that is it as far as side effects I know about.

My real concern is the aggressive schedule of the vaccinations. I think if I was to have another baby I would delay them, as many mothers here are doing. No Hep shots right away (baby will not be at risk.) Break up the MMR, in fact I wish they were doing that for everyone. It isn't the actual shot that worries me as much as what is in it in such a young system.

What I really want is parents and doctors to be having more educated and open talks about the risks involved (in both doing them and not doing them.)

More parental education about the side effects, what to look for and how to treat them. I guess I feel so many doctors don't want to discourage parents from getting them so they don't really warn them of the potential problems and children that should be getting treatment for a vax reaction might be over looked because they didn't know it wasn't "normal."

Twinsmom, you seem like a great doctor. I would love to have your for my kids doctor. I do like my peds office and I haven't discussed this in detail with them yet since my girls have not been due for any.

I had a website that had a suggested delayed vax schedule, but I am not sure where it is now. I will have to look it back up.

 

[GoofTroop]

I work with a woman whose youngest child is severely autistic. I asked her point-blank what she thought about the autism/vaccine link. Her response was that she did not believe there was any connection. In her opinion, her son showed signs of autism even before he was vaccinated.

I believe there may be some small connection but it is so convuluted (probably having to do with timing, genetics/genetic make-up of the child & other environmental factors) that it is short-sided to say 'This vaccine causes autism'.

As the mother of two children on the spectrum, I'm in agreement with the woman you are refering to in your post. With my 7 year old, things were different from the first day he was born.

Elizabeth

 

[rie'smom]

My daughter spiked a very high fever-104.8 and had convulsions after an MMR. She was never sick before-ever. Thank God,she has no lasting ill effects-except maybe ADD. She's a beautiful 13 yo but that night I swear I thought she would die.

 

[acadia1960]

My son had a severe reaction to the MMR vaccine. High fever for 2 weeks, red bumps all over his body, he was so sick. My husband & I were terrified. He had never been sick before that, but after he had chronic ear infections, colds, etc., until he was 7. His Dr. wanted him to have the 2nd MMR last year, because he said his immune system could handle it now. This is our only child, how can I take a chance?

 

[kribit]

My son had a severe reaction to the MMR vaccine. High fever for 2 weeks, red bumps all over his body, he was so sick. My husband & I were terrified. He had never been sick before that, but after he had chronic ear infections, colds, etc., until he was 7. His Dr. wanted him to have the 2nd MMR last year, because he said his immune system could handle it now. This is our only child, how can I take a chance?

Both my kids had the same reaction to the MMR, coupled with extreme prematurity, we were very scared. I, like you, am very nervous about the MMR Booster. My kiddos are 5, but I think (I know) I'm going to put it off until year 6.

 

[DisneyPhD]

My daughter spiked a very high fever-104.8 and had convulsions after an MMR. She was never sick before-ever. Thank God,she has no lasting ill effects-except maybe ADD. She's a beautiful 13 yo but that night I swear I thought she would die.

Rie'smom, acadia1960 and kribit hugs to you. That must of been so scary. I am so glad your children are ok today. Those are the reactions that scare the pants off me. Not so much the Autism (not that autism isn't scary, I just am not sure vaccinations are the cause of it.)

 

[tiggger1]

Denmark vaccination is optional. A long term study was done on vaccinated children and non-vaccinated children. Both groups produced exactly the same percentage of infantile autism

http://www.stanford.edu/~chdant/DANISH STUDY.html

 

[maxtomsmom]

I myself know some of those pediatricians who refuse to treat patients who don't vaccinate. I personally don't think that that is a constructive way to deal with the problems of autism, vaccines, and vaccine-preventable diseases.

I did find the studies that I had talked about earlier. Specifically, in Denmark, all thimerosal/mercury was discontinued from all vaccines in 1992. There was, however, an increase in incidence of autism through 2000 (when the study was completed) INCLUDING autism in children born after 1992 and who consequently did not receive ANY vaccines containing mercury. In addition, a study done in Montreal showed that even as the number of MMR vaccinations given to children dropped, the incidence of autism continued to rise.

I know that doesn't specifically answer your question, but I thought it would at least address some of it.

I completely understand the mommy instinct, being a mommy myself, which is why I think that parents should always be able to discuss these things in an open matter with their pediatrician and come to some kind of workable solution.

Do you think it is our diet? I can't imagine all those preservatives a good for a growing fetus. As a special education therapist, I have worked with many children with a diagnosis on the spectrum disorder. I have read some studies also stating what you had said about despite the decrease in vaccinations containing mercury, autism is on the rise. I haven't found a study that looked at people who ate a more natural, wholesome diet as opposed to the diet commonly found in more industrialized nations and whether autism is also occurring at such alarming rates in the more wholesome diet group. I also think the media puts so much of it out there that many parents feel every other kid has it. I have also seen/worked with children who were "autistic" but I believed had truly a severe language processing disorder and/or appraxia that can often mirror similar behavioral characteristics as those labeled autistic. Very interesting and scary topic!

 

[MinnieGi]

DH and I know five children on the autism spectrum whose parents have been our friends since high school or college. We've met others through our children's preschool and elementary school. It scares me at how high the rate of autism is increasing.

The five children that I personally know and have known since birth all showed signs of something being different about their behaviors in infancy. No one could really put a name to it in infancy and each had different behaviors, but just something was a little amiss in each. It wasn't until they were in their toddler years or older they were diagnosed on the autistic spectrum as that is when their different behaviors or skill development became more noticable.

Three of the five children may in prior years have been labled as ADHD or just quirky as they are all verbal, highly intelligent and physically active. In fact if I think back to my school years I can name kids who were alot like them, but not labled autistic. They may have been the kid who delved deeply into a theme study on bugs or geography or movies. One of the children I just spoke about has a keen sense for making maps and does it for wherever the family goes. Another can recite movie lines from characters after one watching and another can tell you loads of info on every bug in your backyard! They are all learning how to socialize with peers and in group settings. But you may have known kids just like them when you were growing up. So I definetly think it is being diagnosed more, however I do not think this accounts for all the rise in cases.

Somthing else seems to be a culprit or maybe several things. I certainly can't say, but I am glad more research is being devoted to studying this and hopefully finding some answers.

 

[mjantz]

Do you think it is our diet? I can't imagine all those preservatives a good for a growing fetus. As a special education therapist, I have worked with many children with a diagnosis on the spectrum disorder. I have read some studies also stating what you had said about despite the decrease in vaccinations containing mercury, autism is on the rise. I haven't found a study that looked at people who ate a more natural, wholesome diet as opposed to the diet commonly found in more industrialized nations and whether autism is also occurring at such alarming rates in the more wholesome diet group. I also think the media puts so much of it out there that many parents feel every other kid has it. I have also seen/worked with children who were "autistic" but I believed had truly a severe language processing disorder and/or appraxia that can often mirror similar behavioral characteristics as those labeled autistic. Very interesting and scary topic!

I honestly think the causes of autism are varied & complicated. There was research that came out in the past year or so that said that while it is not a genetic illness, there is something in the genes. The women I work with with an autistic child says that she sees autistic tendencies in herself, her spouse & their other children.
Personally (& while I'm not a special ed teacher, I do work with children & have for years) if pressed, I'd say its probably a combination of various factors & I think its wrong & possibly fearmongering to hold out 1 thing as the reason 100% that a child is autistic.

And, lest we forget, measles, mumps & rubella are nothing to sneeze at. A quick look at wikipedia finds the following:

Complications with measles are relatively common, ranging from relatively mild and less serious diarrhea, to pneumonia and encephalitis (subacute sclerosing panencephalitis).

****************************
Known complications of mumps include:

Infection of other organ systems
Sterility in men (this is quite rare, and mostly occurs in older men)
Mild forms of meningitis (rare, 40% of cases occur without parotid swelling)
Encephalitis (very rare, rarely fatal)
Profound (91 dB or more) but rare sensorineural hearing loss, uni- or bilateral

*************************************
Rubella can affect anyone of any age and is generally a mild disease. However, rubella can cause congenital rubella syndrome in the fetus of an infected pregnant woman. Usually occurs between 14 - 21 weeks of pregnancy

And the flu can be very dangerous & make you quite miserable. A friend of mine described it this way 'At first I was afraid I was going to die & then I was afraid I wasn't.'


Just food for thought.

 

[sha_lyn]

I now selectively vaccinate after watching what happened to a friends daughter. She was a very normal active out going, spunky 5 yr old until her 5 yr check-up and vaccines. All the Dr's can figure out is she had a seizure during the night that damaged part of her brain (pre-frontal lobe I believe). The damage does show up on scans. Her personality changed over night. She is now considered in the asperger's- autism spectrum. She was tiny/skinny before the shots. Gained 30 lbs in the first month after the shot.
From what one specialist told my friend, there seemed to be a direct link to her DD's problems (and others who develope similar problems around the same) and a certain batch of a certain vaccine.

 

[twinmom319]

DCforbreakfast posted:
What are your thoughts on giving babies so many "live" viruses at once? We should all be so lucky to have such an understanding doctor. You must see a lot of scared parents with all the media attention. Do you have any parents who want to see the vaccine package as proof there is no mercury/thimerosol? Just curious if that bothers you.

I really, honestly don't think that there is a problem with giving the vaccines in the way that is usually done. Many parents are worried that it is going to harm the baby's young immune system, but there are really no studies to that effect. In addition, while the viruses in some vaccines are live, they are also what is called attenuated, which means that they are altered and are unable to cause full-fledged disease. As for parents who want to see the vaccine package, I have absolutely no problem with that. You should be able to see the contents of anything that you are ok'ing to be given to your child!

Maxtomsmom posted:Do you think it is our diet? I can't imagine all those preservatives a good for a growing fetus.

I tend to agree with those who posted saying that many things cause autism. Several twin studies have shown that in identical twins, who share the same genes, the rate of autism in one twin if the other twin has been diagnosed is very high; while in fraternal twins, who are no more genetically linked than brother and sister, the rate of autism in one twin if the other twin has been diagnosed is no more, and sometimes even less, than the average rate.

With any medication that you give your children, success rates are not 100% (thus, the cases of people getting pertussis even though vaccinated) and there are risks. If you take an antibiotic to get rid of strep throat, you risk having an allergic reaction; if you don't take the antibiotic, you risk getting rheumatic heart disease. All decisions involve some elements of uncertainty, which is why it's so important to talk and be open with your doctor about why you are making the decisions that you are.

Even with a disease like rubella, which is often less severe when contracted early, if one contracts it while pregnant there are devastating effects on the baby. Like blindness, mental retardation, etc.

I am so sorry for all those who posted whose children or friends had a bad reaction to the vaccine. it's horrible when things like that happen. They really are the exception rather than the norm. But we need to prevent them whenever possible while also preventing these horrible diseases. That's why we continue to do research to try and tease apart all of these issues!

 

[merryweather20]

My cousin's son was born in 1992 he was diagnosed with autism at age 5. When she gave birth to twin girls (fraternal) in 2000 she had done some research and even back then there was concern about vaccines and she decided not to vaccinate her daughters. As some of the other posters noted she noticed one DD was more like her son, and showed signs of autism even as a baby but still decided not to vaccinate. One was diagnosed with autism at age 4.

The little girls contracted measles and passed away from complications. In the end their lung kept filling up with fluid and the doctors could not do any thing more for them. We beleive they caught the disease or passed it on to the migrant workers who help them on the farm during the fall (not all of whom had had vaccinations). Three of there workers got sick as well but as adults were able to fend of the disease better, I guess. each got better in 2-3 weeks.

MMR is given before 12 months because, the Mom (if vaccinated) passes on anti-bodies to the fetus that will protect the baby for around 1 year from contracting the diseases. So in postponing it you risk having your child contract the disease. As you can imagine my cousin feels very responsible, and has sadly been taing medication for depression for the last 6 months.

Many of you have said you question the ability of the baby's immune system to handle the vaccines, but it is so much worse if their immune system is faced with the disease.

 

[camouseketeer]

I have a DD on the autistic spectrum and I did vaccinate.

Many children on the Autism Spectrum have been tested to have higher concentrations of heavy metals in their systems (thimerisol being one of them..) as well as have excessive amounts of measles antibodies in their guts.

I've done lots of research; online, medical journals, etc... and I think someday it will be discovered that some people have a predisposition to autism...and that something in our current vaccines just triggers it. I don't know if it is thimerisol or one of the other preservatives... but that is my theory!

This is my theory as well. Some children can get all the shots and no autism because they are not predisposed to it. I look forward to the day when scientists can figure out a way to determine those who are predisposed to it!

My son who has a speech delay and is very STRONG willed was "described" as autistic by his speech therapist even though he is not. He is developing correctly, but occassionally does the hand flapping thing, or stares into space. However there are so many other factors she didn't take into consideration.

I think that right now this is a "hot button" issue, and the umbrella is HUGE! The spectrum ranges from fits and staring off into space to severe development delays. We were seriously considering testing him until I spoke with his Ped. She interviewed us, and spoke with him looks at us and goes, "Get a new speech therapist."

AMYHUGHS: I urge you to look into testing again and to further investigate the definition of autism. You are definitely correct that the autistic spectrum is huge. But there is a precise, clinical definition of autism. A person has to meet very specific requirements in three separate categories to be labeled autistic.

My DD is on the spectrum but does not, by definition, have autism. That, however, does not mean that she does not need therapy and intervention. Pediatricians are NOT the best ones to diagnose autism. Neurologists and psychologists trained in autism are the specialists. I found mine through my school district and the state early intervention program.

Speech delays and flapping are two signs of an autistic spectrum disorder. You can't lose anything by getting him tested. You can only gain either peace of mind that he is not on the spectrum or peace of mind that he will begin receiving help as soon as possible.

Best of luck to you!