OKW pool slide

[Chuck S]

why shouldn't we all have an equal share in paying dues at all DVC resorts mae it one blanet set of dues for all members that covers all resorts then we won't have any thing to realy complain about.

I don't think such a thing is legal under timeshare laws. Dues are not really "dues" as you would pay for membership in an organization. DVC "dues" are regulated and must include actual costs tied to the resort that is deeded to the owner. There must be a physical building ownership in order to for taxes, insurance and other costs to be assessed.

 

[PKS44]

Owning something with a set deadline is hardly ownership as anyone would define or understand it..that is just long term renting....the entire control of the property- which pretty much defines true ownership --resides with DVD no matter what you or DVD or anyone else wants to call it--we are owners in name only---we are Owners in name so that they can charge us--but all control and decisions on the property reside with DVD -the true owners..this is semantics only so far as it proscribes the rights of those paying dues.

if you read your documents carefully you will see (as Pam pointed out a few pages back):

Recreational Facilities may be expanded or added without the consent of the purchasers or the association. Maintenance costs may increase as a result of the expansion or addition of recreational facilities causing an increase in annual dues.

...DVD reserves the right to add recreational facilities to the Condominium or other DVC Resorts, if any, without the consent of the Club Members, the Owners at that DVC Resort, or the managing entity of the DVC Resort, provided that all costs of construction of such additional recreational facilities shall be borne exclusively by DVD. All costs of maintenance, repair and replacement of any such additional recreational facilities will be borne by the Owners at that DVC Resort and shall be assessed to these Owners as a part of their Annual Dues subject to the limitation in the increase of the Condominium Operating Budget to no more than one hundred fifteen percent (115%) of the previous year's budget, as more particularly described in paragraph 20 below and in paragraph 5.2 of the Membership Agreement.

if you think calling you an owner under these conditions means you actually own something--well you do believe in Magic, yes, you really do.

Paul

 

[MELSMICE]

Originally posted by PKS44
if you think calling you an owner under these conditions means you actually own something--well you do believe in Magic, yes, you really do.

LOL - this adds some humor to this debated topic. Thank you. That was good!

 

[sgtdisney]

Originally posted by PKS44
the entire control of the property- which pretty much defines true ownership --resides with DVD no matter what you or DVD or anyone else wants to call it--we are owners in name only---we are Owners in name so that they can charge us--but all control and decisions on the property reside with DVD -the true owners..this is semantics only so far as it proscribes the rights of those paying dues.

Sure Disney is the true owner and if anyone reads their documents thoroughly they will be astounded at what Disney has the right to do with the property they own, not short of shutting down the themeparks and selling all the land which would make your vacation ownership worth basically nothing. They have they right to sell off individual properties to anyone and refusing to let the members at those properties stay at the other DVC resorts, they have the right to not let anyone trade out of their own home resort for any reason. How is everyone going to feel when and if these things come to fruition? I think most people assumed that those things won't happen, after all this is Disney, right. Well it is for now until it is lost in some hostile takeover.

Disney used to be a premiere customer service company. Doing any of these things including exercising their right to add a slide to the resort that the membership isn't desiring is something I would associate with a company like Comcast and not Disney. Maybe I expect a lot from Disney, all I ask of Disney is a little disclosure for the OKW members.

Of course, maybe this merger is already a done deal and Disney has decided not to tell the stockholders yet?

 

[GAIL HAYDEN]

I personally like the looks of the slide at BWV not everyone likes the look of the clown or the thought of sliding down the slide and exiting from a large clowns mouth but hey everyone has their own tastes.

I personally think it is one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, but, then again I am absolutely terrified of clowns.

 

[GAIL HAYDEN]

Originally posted by PKS44
Owning something with a set deadline is hardly ownership as anyone would define or understand it..that is just long term renting....the entire control of the property- which pretty much defines true ownership --resides with DVD no matter what you or DVD or anyone else wants to call it--we are owners in name only---we are Owners in name so that they can charge us--but all control and decisions on the property reside with DVD -the true owners..this is semantics only so far as it proscribes the rights of those paying dues.

if you read your documents carefully you will see (as Pam pointed out a few pages back):




if you think calling you an owner under these conditions means you actually own something--well you do believe in Magic, yes, you really do.

Paul

My documents call me an owner, not a renter for a certain amount of time. I have a registered deed. They don't issue deeds to renters.
If I were a renter the contract would read that way.
Do I believe in Magic, yep, but, I also believe in contracts and words in black and white.

 

[BWVDee]

Originally posted by DrTomorrow
I agree with tjkraz, et al, here, but as a new SSR owner, I'm curious - is this whole 'OKW Slide' issue the first such time that DVC/DVD/Disney has acted in such a unilateral fashion?

As others have said this is not the first time this has happened. Disney owns the resorts and they operate them in whatever way is most profitable for them.
It is very clearly spelled out in DVC documents what they are completely within their rights to do. These documents have not changed since everyone signed on the Mickey heads and palm trees!!!!
The contract can use the term "owner" all it wants but in my book something that is NOT mine for however long I desire to keep it, is not something I own! It is either something I rented or something I borrowed. Since we pay maintenance dues I would say rented is a more appropriate term. Bottom line, they are Disney's resorts and they can do whatever is within their rights with the resorts, without imput from members.
I agree it would definitly have been more thoughtful and definitly more public relations friendly if they handled the release of this information to members differently. And yes, I am somewhat disappointed in the way Disney has handled this, but in all honesty I am really not that surprised. Disney most definitly leaves the pixie dust in the parks, in their board rooms they are all about the bottom line.
Disney is free to change their resorts anyway they choose; as long as it falls within the very Disney advantaged DVC contracts. These contracts are very open ended regarding changes that can be made to certain aspects of the resorts without member approval, sanction etc., and this is stated very clearly.
In all honesty, I am a lot happier to see them adding things to the resorts then taking them away; as they have in the past!
I am thrilled they are adding coffee tables to the BWV studios. Yes it is not the way I bought the membership and it may very well cost me more money, but who cares! BWI/BWV also just underwent a huge rehab replacing all the siding and awnings. True the cost of this was supposed to be offset by some contract dispute but I would be willing to bet somehow, someway BWV members paid a portion for this rehab. Improvements enhance the resort and the value of the resort. I hope the next step at BWV is changing the dining tables in the 1 br and I wish they would enlarge and move the hot tub at the main pool. I would also gladly pay an increase in dues for another set of elevators at the ends of the building. This would be a very costly improvement but well worth it, imo. As long as Disney continues to make enhancements to the resorts, I am a very happy member.

 

[BWVDee]

Originally posted by GAIL HAYDEN
I personally think it is one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, but, then again I am absolutely terrified of clowns.

LOL! The slide actually goes very well with the theming of the resort. BWI/BWV is themed after NE seashore towns like Coney Island and Atlantic City. The clown slide is an almost exact replica of the clown "Steeplechase" (one of the BW suites is named this also). Steeplechase was used extensively on posters advertising Steeplechase pier in AC and also on Coney Island. I like the clown because it does fit in so well with the theming, it is a great slide and I like clowns. But then again I like the elephants that squirt water by the pool, so what do I know? LOL!!
BWI/BWV is full of some really great memorabilia from old NE seashore towns. BWI side has more though, maybe Disney was afraid to put too much of it on the villa side or it might go the same way as all the placemats, napkins etc went at OKW via members. LOL!

 

[RobDoc]

Originally posted by PKS44
Owning something with a set deadline is hardly ownership as anyone would define or understand it..that is just long term renting....the entire control of the property- which pretty much defines true ownership --resides with DVD no matter what you or DVD or anyone else wants to call it--we are owners in name only---we are Owners in name so that they can charge us--but all control and decisions on the property reside with DVD -the true owners..this is semantics only so far as it proscribes the rights of those paying dues.

if you think calling you an owner under these conditions means you actually own something--well you do believe in Magic, yes, you really do.
Paul

You are free to define ownership anyway you'd like and even add caveats- like "true ownership" if you feel the need to support the point you're trying to make. I'll choose to define ownership as something that I have financial control over and can assign, bequeath, sell or otherwise transfer to another person if I so choose. I can also do so at a profit if I so choose. If the resort decides to add a slide, it also has that right and it doesn't interfere with any of my rights.

Disney has chosen to use the term "owner" in many places in the documents and has even provided a definition of that term as part of the legal contract. I will still challenge anyone to find a reference to "long term renting" in the documents and until that time I will still be happy to trust that my deed and title are legally accepted documents of ownership.

From the 8/98 Hilton Head Component Site Public Offering Statement- page viii:

Owner means the owner of a Unit. Unless the context requires otherwise, the term Owner shall include Cotenants but shall not include owners of Ownership Interests at DVC Resorts other than the Hilton Head Island Resort.

Ownership Interest means an undivided percentage interest in a Unit and in the Unit's undivided interest in the Common Elements and Common Surplus.

Cotenant means the owner of an Ownership Interest in a Unit and shall include all pther Cotenants who own Ownership Interests in that Unit as tenants-in-common.

Now ...how about the long term rental language - where can I find that in the documents? (...or do we just need to contrive another definition to support the viewpoint ?)

 

[KNWVIKING]

Try making a ressie at OKW in 2043. See what your ownership gets you.

 

[BWVDee]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Try making a ressie at OKW in 2043. See what your ownership gets you.

I do not see how much "financial control" members have either. The additon of the OKW slide is a perfect example.

 

[RobDoc]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Try making a ressie at OKW in 2043. See what your ownership gets you.

I have already agreed that my ownership ends on January 31, 2042 and that I have no rights beyond that date. That was understood and agreed to before I purchased. It is included in the legal description of my ownership.

Originally posted by BWVDee
I do not see how much "financial control" members have either. The additon of the OKW slide is a perfect example.

In that same legal description of my ownership there is an accounting of what my financial responsibilities entail and I also accepted that when I purchased. I can sell/transfer my ownership for any amount I choose- without restriction from Disney (or anyone else) and I may also rent reservations at ANY DVC resort, for any amount I choose- also without restriction from Disney. I have also already agreed to pay the annual fees decided by the Board of Directors of the organization. I have full financial control over all aspects of my ownership both privileges and responsibilities. By purchasing at the terms offered by DVC, I have already accepted both the privileges and the responsibilities- whether I agree with them, like them or not. If DVC decides to add a slide at OKW and increase my dues accordingly, I have already agreed to that at the time of purchase. The choice was mine.

But make no mistake, I do have control over the ownership and
if I reach the point where I deem that the privileges or ownership are outweighed by the responsibilities of ownership, I am free to sell according to the terms of my purchase. It is entirely my choice.

I can only speak for the specifics of my agreements with Disney, but I'll assume most DVC members have the same options. If your agreements vary from mine, more power to you.

 

[sgtdisney]

Originally posted by WebmasterDoc
I can only speak for the specifics of my agreements with Disney, but I'll assume most DVC members have the same options. If your agreements vary from mine, more power to you.

Remarkable Doc, but my agreement reads an awful lot like yours.

 

[CaptainMidnight]

This discussion reminds me of the Monty Python movie where they are pushing the cart around saying "bring out your dead" and one of the players carries a body over to the cart and the body ends up saying "I'm not dead yet." the player and the body end up aurguing for a while saying "I'm not dead", "Yes you are", "No I'm not" etc. The player ends up hitting the talking body over the head, in order to put it on the cart as "dead". Sorry if it misses in translation or poor story telling, but it is a really funny movie scene. Thought maybe a little humorous recollection wouldn't hurt.

Since my car is paid for, I currently own it. But it has a life expectancy, and eventually I'll need to get rid of it and I won't own it. I can't make up my own laws about how to drive, and it must pass safety inspections as I have agreed as a licensed driver and owner. I don't have full say in it's usage, but I still own it. If the safety inspector requires me to put on a new muffler, I'll need to do that, or if they require an additional stop tail light, I'll comply, I don't have full say in it, and I'll need to pay for it. But I still own it. Isn't the analogy similar?

Good points regarding ownership, Doc, thanks for clarifying. PKS44, thanks for the quote from the membership agreement, it's pretty clear as well.

 

[WDWDad]

Are we done here yet? Cause this horse is starting to smell.

I was going to turn off the lights and tell everyone to go home. So are we done yet ?

Good ! Happy swimming !

 

[BWVDee]

I think it is a difference of how one preceives ownership. To many this means at the time of purchase/legal acquistion you own something for as long as you wish, there is no ending date. It may not always be in the same condition as it was when you purchased it (referring to the example of the car Captain gave) but you still own it and can bequeth it, transfer it, trade it in etc. To many ownership means it is yours forever, or until the time you sell it, trash it, give it away, will it to heirs, etc. This is not the way a DVC contract works. Different folks have different opinions of what consititutes ownership. I guess you could say DVC is "term ownership"!

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Since my car is paid for, I currently own it. But it has a life expectancy, and eventually I'll need to get rid of it and I won't own it."***

But you don't HAVE to get rid of it. It won't be TAKEN away from you and get sold to someone else. You can park it on your front yard and plant flowers in the trunk. You can lease out to the homeless. You can convert it into a MIL apartment. You can put expired plates on it and drive it in New Jersey. It's yours. You OWN it. Now, if we were discussing Marriott or Hilton's timeshare.... those you own forever. They don't expire in 50 years.

 

[PKS44]

Capn Midnight-

I don't think the analogy to a car is at all similar...the car is yours to do with as you choose. improve or not as regulations require, drive or keep in your garage for as long as you like....

If you want to cling to the idea of ownership be very aware of what exactly you own....DVC is a timeshare and a limited one at that...you own the right to stay there for a defined period of time...there is a reason property is called REAL estate--you own something real...DVC is not real estate--it is not real property that you own....you are not an OWNER of DVC --no members own the resorts--so if it makes you happy owning the right to stay there--fine--OKW members do not OWN OKW--they are not owners of OKW they are owners of a right to use a unit at OKW---...DVC is a prepaid resort stay--you have prepaid for a nice resort room...they cut you a deal in exchange for you helping to pay to keep the place up--just because you can sell it or keep it does not make it ownership in any way of the resort itself.

The best analogy would be the seat licenses that sports teams sell---you own the right to buy season tickets each year--you can sell that license at a profit or not...but you do not own the seat, you have no say in how the stadium or the team is run--but you own the privelege to buy a ticket to the seat...they call this ownership too--
Paul

 

[jaysue]

This is the first DVC thread I am removing my subscription to

 

[CaptainMidnight]

Originally posted by PKS44
Capn Midnight-

I don't think the analogy to a car is at all similar...the car is yours to do with as you choose. improve or not as regulations require, drive or keep in your garage for as long as you like....
{snip}
Paul

I'm OK either way. I really don't feel that strongly about the ownership discussion to continue it.

Happy sliding to those who enjoy it. Best to all.