OK... Now I'm mad about something

[crusader]

Our side's argument is that they shouldn't be playing catch up.

I'll only discuss WDW here and admit Test track being the last big thing to come along supports this statement.

But, So what? Why is this being treated as the end-all?

Why wouldn't E:E and M:S be considered by any of you as an equitable counterargument? That's where we disconnect. There is a lack of acknowledgement toward the affirmative.

I'm sitting here trying to find the words to explain the correlation between operating schedules and a vacation, but even I can't do it.

Not sure why. We attend things when they're open and we do something else otherwise. What am I missing - denied access phobia or scheduling deficit disorder? I guess I don't share these syndromes.

 

[crusader]

As I recall a news item, the recession was over more than 20 months ago. The economists did not announce it because they wanted to be sure it wasn't just a spike in the statistics.

Yeah, and the market didn't crash either. Actually I am curious to see who floated this but if you can't dig it up that's fine. It's all cleverly designed to stimulate investment but offers no real purpose beyond that. We need to make determinations for ourselves and realize the media has an agenda beyond unbiased truth in reporting.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"AV--Well written post. Other theme parks (Cedar Point) aren't vacation destinations. The rainy start of the summer killed their attendance."***

So weather is a consideration for other parks,just not Disney. And when Disney says attendance was hurt by 9/11,SARs,war,economy, etc... they are just making excusses.


***" Fantasmic was a zoo. An extra section was set aside for the dinner package. I asked a CM what was going on. Evidently Fantasmic was rained out a few times during the week."***

What portion of your park pass states that "if it rains,no problem, we'll owe you another show,free of charge".

***"Guest services was giving out passes for people to come back for Fantasmic (without requiring park admission). "***

How dare they do something like that. Actually GIVE people free admission back into the park to see a show that was rained out.

 

[Lewisc]

KNWVIKING --Disney doesn't "owe" free admission for people who were rained out of Fantasmic nor do I think it's a bad idea if they do it BUT if you're going to give out something like 1300 extra passes THEN you should run a second show.

It was so packed that I'm sure Disney (greatly) exceeded whatever the fire code maximum capacity is.

Two or 3 years ago I was at MK, the parks were much more crowded than expected and about 5:00 Disney decided to extend park hours and add a second Spectromagic parade.

Fantasmic was rained out for a few days, Disney was giving complimentary admission, it's reasonable to assume people with PHP passes would be going to Fantasmic DISNEY SHOULD HAVE ADDED A SECOND SHOW, A few years ago they would have.

Bad weather would have a greater effect on theme parks that get day visitors. I'd expect it to have a lesser impact on destinations in which people plan vacations.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Fantasmic was rained out for a few days, Disney was giving complimentary admission, it's reasonable to assume people with PHP passes would be going to Fantasmic DISNEY SHOULD HAVE ADDED A SECOND SHOW, A few years ago they would have."***

Hindsight is always 20/20. There are so many variables in a situation like this. What nite do you run the second show ? I've got one of the passes and the 2nd show falls on a nite I've got plans...I'm pissed. Maybe my trip ends before the 2nd show nite. Maybe the actors guild won't allow 2nd show on the spur of the moment. I don't know what the best answer is, but bottom line is that Disney didn't have to do anything. They made an attempt to do right by these people and by your account it backfired. I be curious to know how the people who had the free passes feel.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Bad weather would have a greater effect on theme parks that get day visitors. I'd expect it to have a lesser impact on destinations in which people plan vacations."***

You mean like those 13 million Florida residents who live within a few hours of Disney ?

 

[CasualObserver]

Originally posted by crusader
Yeah, and the market didn't crash either. Actually I am curious to see who floated this but if you can't dig it up that's fine. It's all cleverly designed to stimulate investment but offers no real purpose beyond that. We need to make determinations for ourselves and realize the media has an agenda beyond unbiased truth in reporting.

Here's a link to a well-written article. Just to keep the politics out of it, I quoted a foreign press source

Australian Financial Review Recession Article

Oh, and the market did crash, but that doesn't mean the recession didn't end. We can debate the cause of the market crash later.


Casual Observer

 

[Planogirl]

I have a question.

It was mentioned that bad weather caused problems for parks in some areas of the country. Did Florida also have weather problems? A poster said something about this type of thing affecting the Florida parks too but I don't recall weather being a problem in Florida.

As for the recession, unemployment is still high whether the recession is over with or not. It's supposedly even worse than the numbers indicate since so many workers have fallen off of the unemployment lists due to being out of work for so long. I know first hand that unemployment is a problem here.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"A poster said something about this type of thing affecting the Florida parks too but I don't recall weather being a problem in Florida."***

From what I've been reading it appears Florida is getting all the rain this year that it didn't get during the three year draught. When we were there in Dec & May we got more rain then we've ever had in all our trips compbined since '95. I don't know what affect this has had on out-of-staters who have booked in advance, but I gotta believe it has knocked down the attendance of the locals.

 

[Lewisc]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
***"Bad weather would have a greater effect on theme parks that get day visitors. I'd expect it to have a lesser impact on destinations in which people plan vacations."***

You mean like those 13 million Florida residents who live within a few hours of Disney ?

Weather has a greater effect with parks like Six Flags. People will cancel a day trip. People who already have plane reservations, hotel reservations and car rentals are much less likely to cancel a trip based on a bad weather forcast.

Disney gets a lot more visitors from out of the area (look at all the hotels) than the regional parks. AFAIK the FL weather this year hasn't been that much different than normal FL weather.

I'll agree with AV, we should be comparing Disney with other destination vacations (cruises, Vegas) not with regional theme parks.

The real test is how crowded will the water parks be with only 1 open? After a few days of bad weather will the open park be overcrowded?

 

[KNWVIKING]

***"Weather has a greater effect with parks like Six Flags. People will cancel a day trip. People who already have plane reservations, hotel reservations and car rentals are much less likely to cancel a trip based on a bad weather forcast."***

Disney, as well as US/IOA & SW work very hard for the local population, that is why Fl res AP's are a great price and they are offered some special meal plan, (can't think of the real name). Even destination resorts need their in-state population to support them. When the economy goes south or people are afraid to travel for whatever reason, they can still count on their own backyard for some revenue. Lousey weather affects all outdoor entertainment venues equally.

 

[Lewisc]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[B. Lousey weather affects all outdoor entertainment venues equally. [/B]

You can't believe that statement Of course bad weather affects outdoor venues that depend on walk up business a lot more than venues that rely on pre-sold business. I'll go to a Yankee game in bad weather when I already have a ticket but I wouldn't go and buy a ticket there. I'll cancel a trip to Six Flags but won't eat a non-cancellable airline ticket to Disney.

Since this isn't the debate board I'll correcting your misstatements.

 

[KNWVIKING]

In May we stayed at OKW. When it rained, we went to Florida Mall, checked out Gaylord Palms, couple other off-site locations. The rain kept us out of the parks-and we are AP holders. The locals- most of who probably have AP's - stay home during the rain the same as locals in Cedar Point or Jackson NJ. I don't understand how one can argue that rain at Six Flags affects their attendance but rain at WDW doesn't. Rain is Rain.

 

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
In May we stayed at OKW. When it rained, we went to Florida Mall, checked out Gaylord Palms, couple other off-site locations. The rain kept us out of the parks-and we are AP holders. The locals- most of who probably have AP's - stay home during the rain the same as locals in Cedar Point or Jackson NJ. I don't understand how one can argue that rain at Six Flags affects their attendance but rain at WDW doesn't. Rain is Rain.

The difference I see is the fact that many (most?) locals are AP holders. The restaurants may lose out but Disney does not stand to gain added ticket sales from local AP holders who stay home because it rains. I wonder if season ticket sales are as prevalent at the regional parks?

Also, if a greater proportion of attendees are out of state visitors at WDW than at a Six Flags and if we can assume that the out of state travelers will still visit WDW when it rains, then it seems logical to assume that Six Flags will lose a greater proportion of visitors than WDW. But of course this is all conjecture.

 

[d-r]

terrorits crashing air planes in to buildings made many people more likely to stay close to home and go to six flags when it wasn't raining, rather than buy an airline ticket at all.

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by Lewisc
Although I'm sure you could rent out the park for a private event I'm not so sure Disney would allow you to charge admission.

Promoters have done it before during gay days - renting out blizzard beach for some kind of wet and wild disco party with a hard ticket.

You may very well be able to make money.

Then go for it! It is an opportunity sitting there waiting for your entrepeneurship (SIC)

 

[crusader]

Oh, and the market did crash, but that doesn't mean the recession didn't end.

Thanks for the link but my implication was on a much more distinctive level:

First there's the practical application based on the current state of affairs which tends to follow this line of thinking:

http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/17/commentary/wastler/wastler/

Next there's the more detailed synopsis of today's workforce which clearly can be summed up in this manner:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/01/n...00&en=e9cd6e126b6030ca&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

and finally there's what I really meant which has very little to do with the analysts public statements, and everything to do with that minute little indicator known as an oil spike and its' relationship to a potential double-dip recession. (key buzz words to listen for - which the gov't will put forth an enormous effort to downplay)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_11/b3824022_mz065.htm



Hope that helps to clarify things.

sorry - the last link was misposted and has since been edited - good descriptive article but a bit dated

 

[blackshirt]

I still find the premise that gasoline prices have had more than a miniscule effect on attendence ludicrous. It simply can't be proved. From news reports everywhere, all I see are people snapping up SUV's even with the high gas prices. If anyone can find an article showing how small 60 mile a gallon cars are in short supply, please post that link. I have a sinking feeling that 10 years from now, and 4 or 5 new e-ticket rides later,( WOW! One for each magical park, PLUS ONE!) I'll wander over to the Disboards after a 8 year hiatus. And the argument will still be that Disney is a business and everything else is to blame for Disney being taken over by Time Warner.

 

[crusader]

I still find the premise that gasoline prices have had more than a miniscule effect on attendence ludicrous.

Who's premise is this?

My remarks dealt with the spike indicators in correlation to a recession. The economic factors predominantly affecting consumer spending are disposable income. That would be the main predicator to me.

 

[blackshirt]

In an interview a while back Eisner( with Tina Brown) pointed to the AVAILABILITY and the price of gas as being one of the major reasons attendence is down. Several posters have endorsed this view recently despite the fact that gasoline as an expense is tiny compared with the overall cost of a trip to WDW.